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Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
NIST certainly didn't find that the planes impacts was adequate to cause the twin towers to collapse as they collapsed.
Plenty of experts, including those who are experts in buildings, knew it was going to collapse:
https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/911nutphysics.htm

Probably the most revealing commentary on the controlled demolition theory is Bringing Down The House by Michael Satchell in US News and World Report (June 30, 2003). This article describes the work of Controlled Demolition Inc., far and away the world leaders in controlled demolition, and Mark and Doug Loizeaux, who run it.

Like most Americans, the Loizeauxs were transfixed by the televised scenes of destruction shortly after the first jet struck. But as experts in buildings' vulnerabilities, they knew right away what few Americans realized. "I told Doug immediately that the tower was coming down, and when the second tower was hit, that it would follow," remembers Mark.
Horrified, the Loizeaux brothers watched first responders streaming into the doomed towers and tried frantically, and unsuccessfully, to phone in warnings. In the following days, CDI was called to ground zero to consult on safety and develop plans for demolition and debris removal. What if the twin towers, though badly damaged, had somehow remained standing? Without doubt, the Loizeaux family would have been called upon to bring them down. "Quite simply," says Mark in a rare moment of introspective uncertainty, "I don't know how we would have done it."

So according to the world experts on building demolition:

  • It was immediately obvious that the towers were going to fall
  • They have no idea how they would have brought down the towers in a controlled demolition.

What about WTC 7? Do we need to leave that sudden symmetrical collapse as a religious mystery?
It isn't a mystery. It was pummeled with flying debris from the collapse of the other two buildings.
http://www.firehouse.com/article/10567885/deputy-chief-peter-hayden
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Nigro_Daniel.txt
Those are the accounts from firefighters who were there, and they were concerned about the building collapsing long before it collapsed. They even called off the rescue mission because of the concerns over the building collapsing, and about two hours later it collapsed.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There are different levels of understanding.
Some things I'd have to investigate.
- Legitimacy of the data
- The chemistry
- The analysis
- Alternative explanations for the data
- Uses of thermite in construction, eg, welding structural connectionsj
This is a whole lotta work.
I don't see why there should be much struggle for the average reasonable person to grasp this: The company RJ Lee Group, the United States Geological Survey and Jones et al. independently found multitudes of iron-rich microspheres in the dust produced by the WTC destruction, exactly the same sort of microspheres produced when the red/gray chips were heated to just 400°C in the DSC. USGS even found and examined microspheres composed of (primarily) molybdenum. I assume that you can readily understand that these tiny metallic spheres could only have been formed if the metal had been in a liquid state and condensed into a sphere. The temperature at which iron melts is ~1540°C. Molybdenum melts at ~2,623°C, though the temperature may be somewhat lower if combined with certain other elements. These temperatures are much higher than office contents burn, and higher than jet fuel burns (most of which was consumed in the initial explosions, according to NIST). NIST estimated the maximum air temperature to have been 1100°C in the Twin Towers (other experts gives slightly lower estimates), occurring for only a brief period. The paint-cracking tests on steel members showed that none were exposed to temperatures higher than 600°C. Thus, the metallic microspheres (as well as other well documented phenomena) provide evidence of temperatures significantly higher than NIST's estimates for air temperature in the Twin Towers. Right?

http://journalof911studies.com/articles/WTCHighTemp.pdf

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/cache/nyenvirolaw_WTCDustSignatureCompositionAndMorphology.pdf

http://www1.ae911truth.org/documents/WTCDustSignature_ExpertReport.051304.1646.mp_.pdf
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Plenty of experts, including those who are experts in buildings, knew it was going to collapse:
So your beliefs about the destruction of the WTC buildings simply have nothing to do with the physical evidence, such as the active thermitic material found in the dust or the extremely high temperatures indicated by the abundance of iron-rich (and even molybdenum-rich) microspheres in the dust? Your beliefs about these issues are just religion--you can’t question what you already resolutely believe?

Here’s another sacrilegious peer-reviewed paper pointing out a very simple fact:

Destruction of the World Trade Center North Tower and Fundamental Physics

The roof line of the North Tower of the World Trade Center is shown to have been in constant downward acceleration until it disappeared. A downward acceleration of the falling upper block implies a downward net force, which requires that the upward resistive force was less than the weight of the block. Therefore the downward force exerted by the falling block must also have been less than its weight. Since the lower section of the building was designed to support several times the weight of the upper block, the reduced force exerted by the falling block was insufficient to crush the lower section of the building. Therefore the falling block could not have acted as a "pile driver." The downward acceleration of the upper block can be understood as a consequence of, not the cause of, the disintegration of the lower section of the building.​

http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2010/ChandlerDownwardAccelerationOfWTC1.pdf

Chandler even made a brief video for those who find it too difficult to read and understand papers on physics.

It isn't a mystery. It was pummeled with flying debris from the collapse of the other two buildings.
So you disagree with NIST on why WTC7 collapsed?

How does it happen that a 47-story steel-frame building falls straight down into its footprint at near-free-fall speed due to "flying debris" damaging one side of the building? Show us that that's physically possible.

Those are the accounts from firefighters who were there, and they were concerned about the building collapsing long before it collapsed.
None deduced from any observations that it would collapse; they all report being told that it would collapse. And numerous news stations reported that it was about to fall, while it was still standing just as it had stood for some 7 hours that day, with the scattered fires in it dying out.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
So your beliefs about the destruction of the WTC buildings simply have nothing to do with the physical evidence,
There is no physical evidence to suggest anything happened other than two planes crashed into the two towers, compromised their structural integrity, and even some experts realized immediately the towers were going to collapse.
The first sign of a biased sourced is in the title. If you notice, none of my sources were directly related to 911, but this one is. And it's basic logic that models of controlled demolitions cannot be attached to the Trade Towers, because nothing that big has ever been brought down before. And clearly the top parts of the towers coming down was enough to cause the rest to give out, given how we saw the one tower blow out floor-by-floor from the collapse (which is something you never see in a controlled demolition)
How does it happen that a 47-story steel-frame building falls straight down into its footprint at near-free-fall speed due to "flying debris" damaging one side of the building? Show us that that's physically possible.
Massive chunks of flying debris causing a fire, which caused the building to collapse.
None deduced from any observations that it would collapse
If you read them, yes, they did deduce they would collapse.
And numerous news stations reported that it was about to fall, while it was still standing just as it had stood for some 7 hours that day, with the scattered fires in it dying out.
Yes, news crews entirely untrained in building structures reporting it's going to collapse, and it did, two hours after rescue efforts were called off due to concerns of the building collapsing.

.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
For what reason though?
The typical answer is to have a front to go to Afghanistan and Iraq. However, since when has America ever needed such an excuse to launch a military campaign? The bombing of Pearl of Harbor is the only similar example, and even that is a very different scenario.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't see why there should be much struggle for the average reasonable person to grasp this: The company RJ Lee Group, the United States Geological Survey and Jones et al. independently found multitudes of iron-rich microspheres in the dust produced by the WTC destruction, exactly the same sort of microspheres produced when the red/gray chips were heated to just 400°C in the DSC. USGS even found and examined microspheres composed of (primarily) molybdenum. I assume that you can readily understand that these tiny metallic spheres could only have been formed if the metal had been in a liquid state and condensed into a sphere. The temperature at which iron melts is ~1540°C. Molybdenum melts at ~2,623°C, though the temperature may be somewhat lower if combined with certain other elements. These temperatures are much higher than office contents burn, and higher than jet fuel burns (most of which was consumed in the initial explosions, according to NIST). NIST estimated the maximum air temperature to have been 1100°C in the Twin Towers (other experts gives slightly lower estimates), occurring for only a brief period. The paint-cracking tests on steel members showed that none were exposed to temperatures higher than 600°C. Thus, the metallic microspheres (as well as other well documented phenomena) provide evidence of temperatures significantly higher than NIST's estimates for air temperature in the Twin Towers. Right?
http://journalof911studies.com/articles/WTCHighTemp.pdf
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/cache/nyenvirolaw_WTCDustSignatureCompositionAndMorphology.pdf
http://www1.ae911truth.org/documents/WTCDustSignature_ExpertReport.051304.1646.mp_.pdf
It's one thing to grasp what is said.
But it is very different to understand the material well enuf to critique it.
I can do this regarding basic metalurgy & structural failure, but not regarding this paper.

Much I love to puff myself up as a giant brained expert, I'm just unqualified to weigh in on this.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
The typical answer is to have a front to go to Afghanistan and Iraq. However, since when has America ever needed such an excuse to launch a military campaign? The bombing of Pearl of Harbor is the only similar example, and even that is a very different scenario.

To follow this argument, I think the planes being crashed into the twin towers would have been more than sufficient justification, there was no need to stage the collapse as well.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
To follow this argument, I think the planes being crashed into the twin towers would have been more than sufficient justification, there was no need to stage the collapse as well.
But GW Bush is such a genius, that even though he only recently assumed office,
he was able to plan this out to the smallest detail, & have it flawlessly executed.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
But GW Bush is such a genius, that even though he only recently assumed office,
he was able to plan this out to the smallest detail, & have it flawlessly executed.

th
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
But GW Bush is such a genius, that even though he only recently assumed office,
he was able to plan this out to the smallest detail, & have it flawlessly executed.
Yeah, I see what you mean. Kinda pushes the suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There was a great deal of work done in the buildings in the years prior to 2001. It might not have been overtly advertised that the buildings were "being prepped for demolition".
For what reason though?
For what reason was the work being done on the WTC buildings in years (and months) prior to 9/11? The NIST Report repeatedly informs us that the SFRM (Sprayed-on Fire Resistive Material) on the structural steel columns in the Towers had been upgraded in the 1990s (I think 1996 and 1998). Apparently the buildings were not closed for this extensive work. The buildings were also practically empty every night after the cleaning crews left at about 3 a.m. until about 6 a.m. There was obviously ample opportunity to rig the buildings with superthermite in the weeks, months and years prior to 9/11.

Scott Forbes, an employee of Fiduciary Trust with offices in WTC 2, reported that there was an announced and "unprecedented” power down on Saturday and Sunday prior to Tuesday September 11:
Note that apparently no reason was provided for this power down. As they were only given 3 weeks notice, his company had to scramble to protect their systems.

On September 12, 2001, Newsday reported a WTC 1 security guard’s account that on Thursday prior to 9/11, the “bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed”: http://web.archive.org/web/20090216...dzero/ny-nyaler122362178sep12,0,3192994.story This article also quotes another security guard who reported that during the event there were fires on the 22nd floor, which was the “computer command center,” and that after the doors were sealed on this floor due to this fire, “explosions [plural] rocked the building”.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
There was obviously ample opportunity to rig the buildings with superthermite in the weeks, months and years prior to 9/11.

Even if this is true, you still haven't explained why. What's your theory? Are you saying they ( who exactly? ) knew that planes would be flown into the buildings? Or that they ( who exactly? ) arranged for the planes to be flown into the buildings?

You haven't presented a coherent theory.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There is no physical evidence to suggest anything happened other than two planes crashed into the two towers, compromised their structural integrity, and even some experts realized immediately the towers were going to collapse.
The fact that you simply cannot emotionally deal with the evidence presented here, or provide a coherent alternative explanation for it, does not mean that it doesn’t exist.

You haven’t shown that there is any error in the methodologies or conclusions of the Harrit et al. paper, which characterizes the red/gray chips from the WTC dust and concludes that they are unreacted nanothermitic material that, when heated to 400°C in a DSC, exhibits an exotherm slightly narrower and more energetic than reference nanothermite and produces iron-rich microspheres exactly as thermite reactions are known to produce and such as have been found in abundance in the WTC dust by the US Geological Survey, RJ Lee Group and Jones et al.

You haven’t accounted for either these red/gray chips or the iron-rich microspheres that indicate temperatures significantly higher than temperatures produced by burning office contents or jet fuel.

You haven’t shown that it is possible for any stable high-rise building that is structurally damaged asymmetrically to collapse symmetrically. No one has ever demonstrated any such event because it is physically impossible.

You haven’t shown that it is possible for the Twin Towers to have violated Newton’s Third Law such that the damaged smaller upper block of each tower somehow supposedly suddenly fell upon the larger, undamaged lower portion and crushed the larger portion then crushed itself. Again, no one has ever demonstrated any such phenomenon because it physically impossible.

What you have demonstrated here is that you have a religious belief about the destruction of the WTC buildings, a belief that is impervious the evidence.

The first sign of a biased sourced is in the title. If you notice, none of my sources were directly related to 911
I don't have a clue as to what that is supposed to mean. You need to read past the titles and speak to the evidence that has been presented here.

And it's basic logic that models of controlled demolitions cannot be attached to the Trade Towers, because nothing that big has ever been brought down before.
Utter nonsense. You need to inform yourself of Newton's Third Law. You haven't shown that it is possible for the small upper portion of a building, even if it had suddenly fallen on the larger portion below it, to crush the larger portion, then to crush itself. NIST wasn't able show that any such thing is possible. NIST (et al.) only counted on Americans being too dumb to figure it out.

And clearly the top parts of the towers coming down was enough to cause the rest to give out
Prove it.


Or are you only trying to make a circular argument?

Massive chunks of flying debris causing a fire, which caused the building to collapse.
So you disagree with NIST.


Again, I asked you to show that a building that suffers asymmetrical damage collapses into its footprint (at near-free-fall speed no less).

Evidently all you can do is just make assertions that you cannot show to be true.


If you read them, yes, they did deduce they would collapse.
"In the FDNY oral histories, there are about 60 FDNY members who report hearing warnings of Seven’s collapse. [. . .] In five cases it is unknown who ascertained that the building was headed for possible or certain collapse. Of the remaining cases, seven FDNY members personally ascertained or affirmed the possible or definite collapse, while in 50 cases this judgment was made by others, typically official superiors." http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200701/MacQueenWaitingforSeven.pdf

In any case, it’s irrelevant how many firefighters might have feared WTC 7 would collapse or why they feared it. None of them could have possibly predicted the building’s collapse based of the factors that NIST proposed as the cause of its collapse, which was an unprecedented, unique and unobservable sequence of events that resulted in the exterior columns inexplicably buckling simultaneously, which NIST could not even produce a black-box model of.

The destruction of WTC 7 is not even the best example of foreknowledge of the events of 9/11. The unequivocal and indisputable evidence of foreknowledge is found in the extraordinary amount of informed trades in put options on United and American airlines stock in the days prior to 9/11. “[T]here is evidence of unusual option market activity in the days leading up to September 11 which is consistent with investors trading on advanced knowledge of the attacks.” http://voluntarysociety.org/conditioning/conspiracy/911/insidertrading/unusualoptionactivity.pdf
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's one thing to grasp what is said.
But it is very different to understand the material well enuf to critique it.
You don't understand what I said "enuf" to critique anything that might be erroneous in it? What did I say that you don't understand "enuf"? I"ll repeat it:

I don't see why there should be much struggle for the average reasonable person to grasp this: The company RJ Lee Group, the United States Geological Survey and Jones et al. independently found multitudes of iron-rich microspheres in the dust produced by the WTC destruction, exactly the same sort of microspheres produced when the red/gray chips were heated to just 400°C in the DSC. USGS even found and examined microspheres composed of (primarily) molybdenum. I assume that you can readily understand that these tiny metallic spheres could only have been formed if the metal had been in a liquid state and condensed into a sphere. The temperature at which iron melts is ~1540°C. Molybdenum melts at ~2,623°C, though the temperature may be somewhat lower if combined with certain other elements. These temperatures are much higher than office contents burn, and higher than jet fuel burns (most of which was consumed in the initial explosions, according to NIST). NIST estimated the maximum air temperature to have been 1100°C in the Twin Towers (other experts gives slightly lower estimates), occurring for only a brief period. The paint-cracking tests on steel members showed that none were exposed to temperatures higher than 600°C. Thus, the metallic microspheres (as well as other well documented phenomena) provide evidence of temperatures significantly higher than NIST's estimates for air temperature in the Twin Towers. Right?​

What have I said here that you think might be erroneous? Quote it, and I'll show you that it isn't erroneous.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
There are different levels of understanding.
Some things I'd have to investigate.
- Legitimacy of the data
- The chemistry
- The analysis
- Alternative explanations for the data
- Uses of thermite in construction, eg, welding structural connectionsj
This is a whole lotta work.
It is a ton and a half of tedious aggravating research which requires the wading through of many many a bull **** filled conspiracy theory manure piles.
Of which far to many people are far more interested in ratification than honest research.

Then there is the strong evidence that the OP is not really interested in the actual truth, but is merely looking for choir members.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Much I love to puff myself up as a giant brained expert, I'm just unqualified to weigh in on this.
I hear you.
And when you take into consideration the typical conspiracy theorists tactic of throwing as much bull **** against the wall as possible in hopes that some of it will stick, well, it gets neigh impossible to wade through unless you know several people who are in a position to actually know and not just throwing bull **** against the wall....
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But GW Bush is such a genius, that even though he only recently assumed office,
he was able to plan this out to the smallest detail, & have it flawlessly executed.
Who said he did anything such thing? G. W. Bush can barely read.

Notice that again and again here people have asserted that there is merely some logical problem with accepting the evidence that they are unable to show is false. The buildings could not have been "wired" for demolition without someone seeing it and understanding what's going on, therefore the buildings must have violated the laws of physics and collapsed exactly as the government says they did. A Bentham Science journal offered to publish a nonsense paper, therefore the official story on 9/11 must be true. George Bush was in Texas in the 1990s, therefore we must believe the government's story. This is the same method by which people conclude that the earth has to be no more than 6,000 years old.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Even if this is true, you still haven't explained why. What's your theory?
Hypotheses non fingo. One doesn't need a "theory" for the "why" of something in order to assess the evidence.

I also don't have a theory as to why people have such a religion on this topic.

Are you saying they ( who exactly? ) knew that planes would be flown into the buildings?
On this thread, I think it is important to stick to the evidence and avoid speculating on hypotheses for which there is no evidence.
 
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