• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
False. Millette did not attempt to replicate the methods or findings of the Harrit et al. study.

Millette, a NIST contractor, was one of the authors of a 2002 paper for EPA whose purpose was to characterize the dust of the WTC destruction: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1240917/ That paper makes absolutely no mention of any red/gray chips in the dust, nor of any of the iron-rich microspheres subsequently found in abundance in independent studies conducted by RJ Lee company, United States Geological Survey and Jones et al., and produced in the DSC test in the Harrit et al. study, spheres whose formation require temperatures far higher than temperatures achieved by burning jet fuel and office materials: http://journalof911studies.com/articles/WTCHighTemp.pdf

It was a couple of years after the publication of the Harrit et al. paper that Millette discovered the red/gray chips in samples of dust that had been in his possession more than a decade. He still did not find any of the well-documented iron-rich microspheres in his samples. He also did not attempt to replicate the Harrit et al. study, notably failing to perform the all-important differential scanning calorimetry (DSC) to determine the chips’ exotherm, as well as the electrical resistivity test. He engaged in various other methods differing from Harrit et al. (e.g., Millette washed his chips). Nevertheless, Millette clearly did not examine the same material as Harrit et al. did, nor did Millette’s chips match the formula of the primer paint used on the WTC columns, as Millette acknowledged:

The composition of the red/gray chips found in this study . . . does not match the formula for the primer paint used on iron column members in the World Trade Center towers (Table 1).16 Although both the red/gray chips and the primer paint contain iron oxide pigment particles, the primer is an alkyd-based resin with zinc yellow (zinc chromate) and diatomaceous silica along with some other proprietary (Tnemec ) pigments. No diatoms were found during the analysis of the red/gray chips. Some small EDS peaks of zinc and chromium were detected in some samples but the amount detected was inconsistent with the 20% level of zinc chromate in the primer formula.​

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64959841/9119ProgressReport022912_rev1_030112web.pdf

Millette did not speculate about the origin of the red/gray chips in his samples.

From Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth:

Some defenders of the official 9/11 story have claimed that the red-gray chips of thermitic material identified in the WTC dust by chemist Dr. Niels Harrit, Ph.D., Dr Steven Jones, Ph.D., and other scientists are simply remnants of the rust-proofing primer paint that was applied to the steel structure of the WTC skyscrapers during their construction. However, scientific evidence gathered by both the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and Harrit’s team of scientists clearly shows that this claim is false, since the properties of the primer paint are strikingly different from those of the red-gray chips.

First of all, several key ingredients of the primer paint are not present in the composition of the red-gray chips. According to NIST, the type of primer paint used on the WTC steel columns contains substantial levels of zinc, chromium, and magnesium. However, the X-ray Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy (XEDS) analysis of the red-gray chips performed by Harrit and others showed no significant amounts of zinc, chromium, or magnesium.

Based on this data alone, we can already conclude that the red-gray chips are not primer paint. Furthermore, there are other important differences that reinforce the fact that these two materials are not the same.

[. . .]

In addition, the thermal tests on the red-gray chips revealed that when they are ignited at around 430º C, they create molten iron microspheres as a byproduct. Since iron does not melt until it reaches approximately 1538º C, this means a high-temperature chemical reaction occurred. This volatile reactivity makes this type of material extremely dangerous, disqualifying it from ever being used as primer paint.​

http://www1.ae911truth.org/news-sec...t-from-the-wtc-steel-structural-elements.html

Continue reading at link.

At one point, soon after Millette’s initial findings, he agreed to collaborate with Steven Jones on a study on the chips, in order to reconcile their differences. It was to include (inter alia) a DSC test. Jones was “excited about this” (http://911blogger.com/news/2012-09-08/letter-regarding-redgray-chip-analyses#comment-257499), but after his “revised progress report,” Millette apparently backed out.

In short, Millette failed to refute the Harrit et al. findings, and does not claim to have refuted the Harrit et al. findings or to have shown any error in the Harrit et al. methodologies or conclusions.

And while Millette's findings have not been replicated by anyone, one critical aspect of the Harrit et al. findings has:

Apparently your stupid comments are about yourself. It was you who brought up the issue of peer-review on another thread. Here is what I said:

False. As I pointed out:

In fact, there is no reason to doubt that the paper was peer-reviewed.

(1) Bentham Science publishes more than 100 journals, each with their own editorial boards. The Open Chemical Physics Journal was not the one found to have offered to publish the nonsense paper. At least one other Bentham Science journal (the Open Software Engineering Journal) had earlier rejected a paper submitted by the same hoaxer (Philip Davis) after peer-review. https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17288-crap-paper-accepted-by-journal/ Thus, to claim or assume that the Active Thermitic Material paper was not peer-reviewed is to engage in guilt by association.

(2) Physicist Steven Jones, one of the authors of the paper on the discovery of active thermitic material in the 9/11 dust, said that the “paper was reviewed prior to publication by the Physics dept. chair at BYU--and he approved it for publication.” The BYU Physics department Chair at that time was Ross L. Spencer. If you do not believe professor Jones, then you should ask professor Spencer: [email protected]

And I asked you why you have concluded that the Harrit et al. paper is "suspect":

The authors of the NIST reports were well paid to conduct a $20 million investigation in which they did not even comply with standard scientific guidelines specified in the National Fire Protection Association Manual when confronted with “high order damage” to 3 buildings, and in the end were unable to account for the destruction of these 3 buildings on the basis of empirically derived assumptions. In contrast, Harrit et al. had nothing to gain and everything to lose from conducting the study and publishing their results, apparently paid for conducting the study from their own pockets, paid to have the results published, and made an essential contribution to understanding the destruction of those buildings (at least for people who are unafraid of the truth).​
See? You could have just put up this barrage of nonsense all at one time and saved everyone the trouble of trying to come up with any information that might be interpreted any way than the conclusion you want to have confirmed!

Why do you keep quoting the EXACT SAME STUFF EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU POST, as if repetition somehow makes it true? And, OF COURSE, someone--anyone--who challenges the findings of your so far ONLY evidence of thermite must be part of the conspiracy to cover up the truth!:rolleyes:

I've responded with evidence that your source is wrong. That's what you asked for.

And I suspect that if anyone else goes to the trouble of finding some other legitimate evidence that your conspiracy theory is just so much bull$#@%, your response will be exactly the same--probably even word for word--using exactly the same lame, suspect sources.

Well, I promised myself before that I wouldn't waste time on you before, then didn't keep that promise to myself. Lesson learned.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Is it not just good general policy to try to know the truth, to try to acquaint oneself with reality?

Okay. Now what do you do with that information? Could you answer the questions I posed?

Seeking "truth" without considering the consequences of the knowledge gained is irresponsible.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Evidently not. The Harrit et al. paper isn't long (compared to, say, judicial opinions or scholarly legal papers)--there are lots of good pictures.
A problem......
It's out of my area of expertise, so I can't tell what's legit & what isn't.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I do realize that there are many Americans who possess an unwavering and adamant belief in the official government story about the events of 9/11.
The thing is, you don't have to accept the official government statement to accept the fact that two large commercial airliners crashed into the Trade Towers and the damage was severe enough to cause the top parts to collapse in on the rest of the towers. There is more than sufficient non-government sources to verify this.
As for thermite, thermite is not the only way to produce what was found (actually a thin shaving of iron and a Bic lighter will do the same thing), and it would have taken tons of the stuff to bring the towers down, and we saw no explosions to indicate that happened.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Given your experience with machines, if you looked at the "evidence," I'm certain you would probably find at least parts of it fishy.
It would be a lot of work to vet all the info.
Were it cromulent, something which has been around for a while would've attracted attention, resulting in knowledgeable commentary.
And then there's the superior explanation of structural failure due to heat causing initial local failure & consequent impact loading as the floors "pancaked".
What function would thermite somewhere have served?

MMMMmmmmMMMMmmmMMmmmMmmmm......
pancakes1-1024x768.jpg
 
Last edited:
(2) Physicist Steven Jones, one of the authors of the paper on the discovery of active thermitic material in the 9/11 dust, said that the “paper was reviewed prior to publication by the Physics dept. chair at BYU--and he approved it for publication.” The BYU Physics department Chair at that time was Ross L. Spencer. If you do not believe professor Jones, then you should ask professor Spencer: [email protected]

This is in no way 'peer review' in the normal sense of the term.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It won't specifically refute them but in terms of probabilities it has a significant impact on the likelihood that the hypothesis is incorrect.

Odds of heads or tails are 50/50.
You need to study statistics. The odds of hypotheses being true or false is not 50/50.

There is plenty of evidence against a controlled explosion
Present that evidence.
 
You need to study statistics. The odds of hypotheses being true or false is not 50/50.

You need to read more carefully.

Present that evidence.

That nobody in the building saw it being prepped for demolition is a pretty big one given the scale of such an operation and how many people worked in that building.

That all of the thousands of people involved in such a conspiracy have remained silent.

That the plane managed to hit perfectly where the explosives were planted, yet the many tons of explosives weren't triggered by the impact or the inferno prior to the controlled demolition.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
See? You could have just put up this barrage of nonsense
You haven't shown anything that I've said or posted to be false.

As noted above, several of your claims are false: Millette did not attempt to replicate the Harrit et al. study. Not only did he fail to perform the critical tests such as the DSC and resistivity tests, he was obviously examining a material with a different elemental composition than that which Harrit et al. examined and characterized. The micrographs in Harrit et al. clearly show the migration of aluminum in the chips, indicating elemental aluminum. Millette did not demonstrate any errors in the methodologies or conclusions of Harrit et al., and does not claim to have refuted their findings.

Your claim that Millette "presented" "his paper" before an "appropriate professional organization" is also apparently false. Millette did not present any "report" on red/gray chips at the 2012 AAFS conference: http://www.aafs.org/wp-content/uploads/ProceedingsAtlanta2012.pdf The website for Millette's company does not mention any such report on red/gray chips from the WTC dust.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Is it not just good general policy to try to know the truth, to try to acquaint oneself with reality?

Okay. Now what do you do with that information?
One can present the information on online discussions boards, such as Religious Forums, so that others may be informed. Perhaps eventually enough people will become adequately informed so as to demand a new investigation. Perhaps with that, some of the people who perpetrated the 3000 murders and other deaths and injuries (e.g., from unleashing the environmental toxins that have killed and injured many people) will be punished.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The thing is, you don't have to accept the official government statement to accept the fact that two large commercial airliners crashed into the Trade Towers and the damage was severe enough to cause the top parts to collapse in on the rest of the towers.
NIST certainly didn't find that the planes impacts was adequate to cause the twin towers to collapse as they collapsed.

What about WTC 7? Do we need to leave that sudden symmetrical collapse as a religious mystery?

As for thermite, thermite is not the only way to produce what was found (actually a thin shaving of iron and a Bic lighter will do the same thing)
Go right ahead and present the evidence that the red/gray chips found in the WTC dust could be produced from iron shaving and a BIC lighter. Who do you claim did the iron shavings and BIC lighter thing?

BTW, you agree that you have not shown any errors in the methods or conclusions of the Harrit et al. paper?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A problem......
It's out of my area of expertise, so I can't tell what's legit & what isn't.
Do you understand the issue of the migration of the aluminum after the MEK soaking?

Do you understand the issue of the iron-rich microspheres that were produced upon ignition of the chips in the DSC--microspheres such as RJ Lee company, US Geological Survey and Jones et al. found in the dust?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Sigh.

Thermite is used for thermite welding, a method used to connect grounding and bonding conductors.

A thermite reaction, when used to purify the ores of some metals, is called the thermite process, or aluminothermic reaction. An adaptation of the reaction, used to obtain pure uranium, was developed as part of the Manhattan Project at Ames Laboratory under the direction of Frank Spedding.

[. . .]

Thermite hand grenades and charges are typically used by armed forces in both an anti-materiel role and in the partial destruction of equipment; the latter being common when time is not available for safer or more thorough methods.[32][33]

[. . .]

A classic military use for thermite is disabling artillery pieces, and it has been used for this purpose since World War II; such as at Pointe du Hoc, Normandy.[35]

[. . .]

Thermite was used in both German and Allied incendiary bombs during World War II.[37][38] Incendiary bombs usually consisted of dozens of thin thermite-filled canisters (bomblets) ignited by a magnesium fuse. Incendiary bombs created massive damage in many cities due to fires started by the thermite.​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite


Copper thermite is used for welding together thick copper wires for the purpose of electrical connections. It is used extensively by the electrical utilities and telecommunications industries (exothermic welded connections).​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite#Civilian_uses

Copper thermite was not discovered in the WTC dust.

The volume of thermite in the Towers rubble is exactly consistent with this activity.[
Provide those calculations.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Do you understand the issue of the migration of the aluminum after the MEK soaking?
Do you understand the issue of the iron-rich microspheres that were produced upon ignition of the chips in the DSC--microspheres such as RJ Lee company, US Geological Survey and Jones et al. found in the dust?
It's out of my familiarity.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Do you understand the issue of the migration of the aluminum after the MEK soaking?

Do you understand the issue of the iron-rich microspheres that were produced upon ignition of the chips in the DSC--microspheres such as RJ Lee company, US Geological Survey and Jones et al. found in the dust?
It's out of my familiarity.
That's alarming, because even I understand such stuff.

Would you like those issues explained (for the benefit of both you and others)?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That's alarming, because even I understand such stuff.
Would you like those issues explained (for the benefit of both you and others)?
There are different levels of understanding.
Some things I'd have to investigate.
- Legitimacy of the data
- The chemistry
- The analysis
- Alternative explanations for the data
- Uses of thermite in construction, eg, welding structural connectionsj
This is a whole lotta work.
 

Wirey

Fartist
A thermite reaction, when used to purify the ores of some metals, is called the thermite process, or aluminothermic reaction. An adaptation of the reaction, used to obtain pure uranium, was developed as part of the Manhattan Project at Ames Laboratory under the direction of Frank Spedding.

[. . .]

Thermite hand grenades and charges are typically used by armed forces in both an anti-materiel role and in the partial destruction of equipment; the latter being common when time is not available for safer or more thorough methods.[32][33]

[. . .]

A classic military use for thermite is disabling artillery pieces, and it has been used for this purpose since World War II; such as at Pointe du Hoc, Normandy.[35]

[. . .]

Thermite was used in both German and Allied incendiary bombs during World War II.[37][38] Incendiary bombs usually consisted of dozens of thin thermite-filled canisters (bomblets) ignited by a magnesium fuse. Incendiary bombs created massive damage in many cities due to fires started by the thermite.​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite


Copper thermite is used for welding together thick copper wires for the purpose of electrical connections. It is used extensively by the electrical utilities and telecommunications industries (exothermic welded connections).​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite#Civilian_uses

Copper thermite was not discovered in the WTC dust.

Provide those calculations.

Right after your picture of people piling thousands of pounds of explosives in the heart of the financial district while no one reacts.
 
Top