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Featured Abraham's Lazarus/Rich Man correspondence = Hades temporary

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Alfred Persson, Jun 24, 2018.

  1. Alfred Persson

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    24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'
    25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. (Lk. 16:24-25 ESV)

    While alive the Rich Man lived in paradise with plenty to spare yet failed to aid Lazarus at his gate who was in anguish from want and experienced only bad things while alive. To balance the scales, Lazarus now enjoys paradise with plenty to spare but is not permitted to aid the Rich Man in anguish from want in Hades and experiencing only bad things while dead.

    It logically follows therefore, as Lazarus suffered until he died, the Rich Man’s torment ends when he “dies”. As the change that occurs during repentance is figuratively like “dying”, the “old man” is “born again” a “new man” (2Cor. 5:17. Rom. 6:4. Jn 3:3. Eph. 4:24), it follows the Rich Man’s torment ends when he repents.

     
  2. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Master of the Magicians

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    Hades is temporary, Gehenna is eternal.
     
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  3. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    I think this story is interesting because it shows that at least one of the Gospel authors had a more Hellenic view of life after death as it shows the good and the bad are conscious after death
     
  4. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    It was a parable = not reality
     
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  5. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    If it was a parable written by a person who believed the dead to be unconscious they would have a parable with unconscious dead people instead of a parable with conscious dead people
     
  6. Alfred Persson

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    I agree, Rev. 20:13-14.

    But only those NOT in the book of life are cast into Gehenna:
    Rev. 20:15
     
  7. Alfred Persson

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    Jesus, the only man who returned from the dead, the Son of God who became flesh, didn't mention unconscious dead people.

    You are reading that into the text.
     
  8. Alfred Persson

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    Because Lazarus is named and that is unique, doesn't happen in other parables...even the early church fathers thought it was more than a parable.

    I can't picture the Son of God (who cannot lie) using lies to teach truth. Moreover, Jesus' audience (the Pharisees) would have understood the parable literally, therefore if Jesus didn't mean it that way, He lied to them.

    As that is impossible, its your interpretation that is wrong.
     
  9. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    No I’m not, i never said that the gospel mentions unconscious dead people
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    When Jesus resurrected his friend, (also named Lazarus,) he had nothing to say about where he had been, or who he had seen either. If Lazarus had gone on to a better life, and was reunited with others of his family who had gone before him, why would Jesus bring him back, only to die a second time? How was that a good thing?

    Jesus was certainly not the first man to return from the dead....there were quite a few mentioned in the NT who were raised from their deathbed.
    But Jesus was Jewish, and as such he would have believed what Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10...."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going."

     
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  11. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    The unconscious and the conscious has no clear meaning today as far as I can tell. What passes for clear meaning is not clear. Is it reducible without being self referential?
     
  12. Alfred Persson

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    I misspoke, Jesus is the only one who returned and we have record of what He said afterward. He didn't contradict what He taught before the experience.

    All those raised before, including Lazarus, would have died again. Otherwise they would still be alive on earth, would they not?

    Silence teaches nothing, we cannot infer from the silence they were asleep or otherwise unconscious when dead. Its just as possible their experiences matched what Christ taught so perfectly they didn't feel the need to add anything.

    As for Ecclesiastes, it also says all memory of them is forgotten and we know that is only true of those still alive, eventually they also die and the memory of the dead is lost.

    That is why most interpreters take this as poetic meaning "there is no work or planning etc" "under the sun" among the living, being performed by those who die. Therefore, we are urged to do all that we do while alive, with vigor. Beause once dead, you can't add to the project anymore.
     
    #12 Alfred Persson, Jun 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  13. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    That wouldn't make sense.....the literal dead being unconscious couldn't hold a dialogue...it is figurative death mentioned here, as most of mankind is in, alienated from God. The Scriptures reveal such death:


    **(19) The rich man and Lazarus (Lu 16:19-31). The setting, in Luke 16:14, 15, shows that the money-loving Pharisees were listening and sneering. But Jesus told them: “You are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts; because what is lofty among men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight.”

    The “purple and linen” in which the rich man was decked out were comparable to garb worn only by princes, nobles, and priests. (Es 8:15; Ge 41:42; Ex 28:4, 5) They were very costly. Hades, where this rich man is said to have gone, is the common grave of dead mankind. That it cannot be concluded from this parable that Hades itself is a place of blazing fire is made clear at Revelation 20:14, where death and Hades are described as being hurled into “the lake of fire.” The death of the rich man and his being in Hades must therefore be figurative, figurative death being mentioned elsewhere in the Scriptures. (Lu 9:60; Col 2:13; 1Ti 5:6) So the fiery torment was experienced while he was figuratively dead but actually alive as a human. Fire is used in God’s Word to describe his fiery judgment messages (Jer 5:14; 23:29), and the work done by God’s prophets in declaring his judgments is said to ‘torment’ those who oppose God and his servants.—Re 11:7, 10.

    Lazarus is a Grecianized form of the Hebrew name Eleazar, which means “God Has Helped.” The dogs that licked his sores were apparently scavengers that roamed the streets and were viewed as unclean. Lazarus’ being in the bosom position of Abraham indicates that he was in a position of favor (compare Joh 1:18), this figure of speech being drawn from the practice of reclining at meals in such a way that one could lean back on the bosom of a friend.—Joh 13:23-25.**

    --- Excerpted from Illustrations — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    Do you really think a drop of water could literally quench a thirst?

    It was all figurative, it was a parable.
     
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  14. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    No, they wouldn't. Bavk then, the leaders of Judaism did not believe, nor did they teach, an immediate afterlife....their hope was in a future resurrection.
     
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  15. Alfred Persson

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    Jesus' audience would not interpret it figuratively, in the Talmud the parable's imagery of a burning Hades is replicated.

    As for your argument, its conclusion is voided by the fallacy of a single cause. Hades may be literally cast into the lake of fire, contrary to your assumption its figurative. Death AND Hades are first emptied of inhabitants, only then are they both cast into the lake of fire:

    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
    14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev. 20:13-14 NKJ)
     
  16. Alfred Persson

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    It is correct they believed in a future resurrection, but its also correct they believed souls survive physical death and these waited for the resurrection/judgment day in Sheol Hades:

    6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!"
    7 And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided.
    8 For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection-- and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both. (Acts 23:6-8 NKJ)


    According to the sterner doctrine of the Shammaites, these souls must undergo a process of purgation by fire; “they enter Gehenna, swing themselves up again, and are healed.” This view, based upon Zech. 13:9, seems to be something like the Christian purgatory.-Singer, I. (Ed.). (1901–1906). The Jewish Encyclopedia: A Descriptive Record of the History, Religion, Literature, and Customs of the Jewish People from the Earliest Times to the Present Day, 12 Volumes (Vol. 5, p. 217). New York; London: Funk & Wagnalls.


    Its my contention Catholic purgatory arose from a corruption of Jewish Christian "purgatory" for the unsaved. With the destruction of Israel much of that unique Jewish Palestinian culture was lost to the Greek speaking church and you can see that process in some of the early church fathers, who began to confuse what happens to the unsaved, with the situation of the saved.

    Its clear in the NT there is no purgatory for believers:

    43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

    See also Heb. 7:23-28; 10:11-18
     
    #16 Alfred Persson, Jun 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  17. Alfred Persson

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    No, water is figurative for Holy Spirit. It does not follow all of it is figurative, then it becomes uninterpretable to the audience Jesus is speaking to.

    Jesus' audience included the Pharisees. They believed souls survived physical death:

    6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!"
    7 And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided.
    8 For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection-- and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both. (Acts 23:6-8 NKJ)
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If I understand the teaching of the 'resurrection' as first century Jews interpreted the word, it literally means a "standing up again" as in a person being raised in a physical body back to life here on earth, just as Jesus raised Lazarus and the widow's son, and the 12 year old girl who died. Each one was brought back to this life and reunited with their loved ones.

    There is no shadowy part of humans that leaves the body at death. The teaching of an immortal soul was adopted by both Judaism and apostate Christianity long after the death of Christ and his apostles. Ancient Jews had no such belief. It came from Platonic Greek influence, not the Bible. The teachings of the Talmud came long after Jesus died. It relies on Jewish tradition more than the teachings of the Tanach. If you remember Jesus castigated the Jewish leaders of his day for relying on tradition more than scripture. He said that they had "made the word of God invalid because of their tradition".

    King David wrote...."The dead do not praise the Lord,
    nor do any of those who descend into the silence of death."
    (Psalm 115:17 NET)

    He also wrote..."His spirit (ruwach) leaves, he returns to his soil; on that day, his thoughts are lost." (Psalm 146:4 Tanach) This agrees with Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10.

    "ruwach" in Hebrew means "wind, breath, mind, spirit" so what leaves the body is the breath. Just as Adam was made alive with the breath that God breathed into his lungs, so it is when we die....the breath leaves our lungs and our soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) When we breathe our last, our consciousness is lost and we "sleep" as Jesus said Lazarus was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14) God's spirit has the power to restore the spirit (breath) to the dead whom Jesus will awaken, calling them from their graves. (John 5:28-29)

    The apostle Paul also spoke of those who "sleep in death". In fact he said that all would be "asleep" until Christ's return...then those "dead in Christ will rise first". Those left alive at "the coming of the Lord" would not go ahead of deceased Christians into heaven.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18...."13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians. 15 For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words." (NET)

    How else would you read Paul's words? The ones chosen to rule with Christ in heaven experience the "first resurrection".....one just like Jesus' resurrection. He was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit". (1 Peter 3:18; Revelation 20:6)

    Yes indeed, but what favor did Jesus do Lazarus in bringing him back from the dead? If he had gone on to a better life in full consciousness with departed loved ones, what was the point of resurrecting him back to this life, or anyone else for that matter, if they just died again?

    We can read it clearly in the Bible....it is not silent about death. The Israelites were never offered heaven or hell...they were offered life or death. (Deuteronomy 30:19) Adam was given no option of heaven or hell, just life or death. Obedience = life....disobedience= death.

    Who remembers their great-great-grandparents? The memory of all of us will be forgotten by our decedents....only those who left some sort of mark on history are remembered and it is usually their deeds, not them as a personality, because everyone who knew them is gone too.

    Yes, it does mean nothing more to do with this world.....but it is the present system of things that God's Kingdom will crush out of existence and replace with one that resembles the one he first created, where humans were supposed to live forever. (Daniel 2:44)
    Do you recall God ever telling Adam that he would go to heaven or hell....or that death would occur for any reason other than disobedience?

    There is no need to get poetic....Its just that the original "project" was never shelved...it was simply put on hold due to the actions of our first parents. God's purpose for this earth was for it to be inhabited by living creatures of his design and to have humankind as his representatives, taking care of what he had made, forever. This is why he endowed humans with his qualities. Everything will go ahead, once God has taught both humans and angels the value of obedience and the wisdom of allowing him to tell us what is good and what is evil...... (Isaiah 55:11) We seem to have lost the definition of both unfortunately. :(
     
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  19. Alfred Persson

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    Lazarus and the Rich man teaches souls survive physical death and are conscious, either in paradise or Hades where there are torments for sins done while alive.

    If souls are not conscious after physical death, then Christ lied. Its revisionist history the church got the idea of souls surviving physical death from pagans or Greeks, they clearly got it from Christ right here, in Luke 16:19-31.

    The texts you cite in the OT, in context do not say what you suggest. The theocratic covenant with God is paramount in their mind, death then is an abstraction, a violation that will be fixed in the resurrection. So they don't focus on what happens after death, they are focused on the resurrection.

    Notice the logic. The soul that sins will die:
    4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezek. 18:4 KJV)

    The soul that stops sinning will live:
    21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:21 KJV)

    Therefore, you are wrong. God says the souls that stop sinning will not die, even though everyone dies a physical death their souls do not:

    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    (1 Cor. 15:55-57 KJV)

    So when Christ told the Thief he would be with Him in paradise, He wasn't lying (even though his body remained dead in the grave)


    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:43 KJV)

    So you err not knowing the power of God or His Holy Word.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The rich man and Lazarus is a parable in amogst many others. These illustrations are designed to teach us something....but immortality of the soul is not one of them.

    The rich man was not said to be wicked, nor was the beggar said to be righteous. The rich man represented the Pharisees who looked after themselves very well but ignored the ones who were spiritually impoverished and malnourished, like the beggar. In time, both died (indicating a change in status) and they changed places. The "bosom of Abraham" was a position of favor and the Pharisees as a group lost divine favor because they rejected the son of God who was sent to save those of his chosen nation who remained faithful. The ones who were like the beggar, "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" to whom Jesus was sent exclusively, responded when he began gathering them to be his disciples.

    The Pharisees were tormented by Jesus exposing them as religious frauds and hypocrites of the worst order.
    The fire was their fury and they wanted the beggar to dip his finger in some water to cool their tongue. They wanted the message to be watered down so as not to cause them such discomfort.

    Taken literally, it would make heaven and hell in speaking distance of one another and a drop of water would cool someone in a fire.....seriously? It makes much more sense as a teaching tool....a parable.

    What do you understand Jesus to have meant when he told the Pharisees...."Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna?" (Matthew 23:33)

    Or as the KJV incorrectly translates it..."Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" This "hell" is "gehenna" not "hades". What is the difference between "gehenna" and "hades"? Which one of these words corresponds to "sheol" in Hebrew? It is important to understand the difference.

    The OT was the only scripture Jesus used in his ministry, as the apostle Paul said in 2 Tim 3:16-17...."All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
    ....so we had better know what it says because that is what Jesus taught.

    The "soul" here is the person. This is a statement about the person themselves, not some thing that lives inside them that never dies.The righteous are promised everlasting life but the wicked are headed for everlasting death. There is no heaven or hell...there is just life or death. God has no need to punish the wicked with anything else.

    The other scriptures I showed you say otherwise. There is no consciousness in death. No one goes anywhere but the grave. It is the resurrection that restores life for the majority of humans who have ever lived and died.
    Jesus promised to call them out of their graves, as I showed you in John 5:28-29...."Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
    Again the KJV is a poor rendering because the last word rendered "damnation" is actually "judgment". This is saying that after their resurrection, those who do good are assured of continuing life, but those who won't bring their lives into harmony with God's directions will be judged unworthy to retain life.

    Can you see that Jesus calls the righteous and the unrighteous from their graves. They are not in heaven, but back here on earth.

    Indeed, for those who are taken to heaven to rule mankind here on earth, there is no sting of death because now those ones are granted immortal spirit life in heaven. But that is not where God placed humans in the beginning. He put them here on earth as mortal creatures to be caretakers of all that he had created. As Isaiah prophesied, 'everything that God intended at the start will take place'. (Isaiah 55:11)

    So those who go to heaven will rule those who are deemed worthy of a resurrection. (Revelation 21:2-4) There will be no more death or pain or suffering as the former things will have passed away.

    Have you ever really thought about that scripture in context and how it fits in with the rest of the Bible?

    In Greek, there are no capital letters or any punctuation, so when we see them in the Christian scriptures, it was the translators who put them there. Read the scripture again like it was Greek.

    "jesus said to him truly i tell you today you will be with me in paradise."

    Now, what if I was to put the comma after the word "today"?

    "Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." (MEV)

    Do you see that the placement of the comma changes the whole statement? So where should the comma go?
    How does the Bible itself answer that question? Well, it says in Acts ch 1 that Jesus did not go to heaven for 40 days after his resurrection, and Jesus himself said that he would be in his tomb for three days and nights. He was resurrected on the third day. (Matthew 12:40) It is clear that Jesus did not go to heaven that day. Also, he did not promise the thief that he would be in heaven, but in "paradise". Where was the first paradise? It was in Eden.

    Jesus made a covenant with his apostles on the night before his death and he said to them..."You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”
    Was the thief promised a position in heaven as one who had "stuck with Jesus in his trials"? Or rather, was Jesus promising him a resurrection back to the earth as one of the 'unrighteous' ones that he would resurrect?

    It appears that the thief had a last minute change of heart because it says in Matthew and in Mark's account that both the criminals hung alongside Jesus had reproached him.

    "In the same way also, the chief priests with the scribes were mocking him among themselves, saying: “Others he saved; himself he cannot save! 32 Let the Christ, the King of Israel, now come down off the torture stake, so that we may see and believe.” Even those who were on stakes alongside him were reproaching him." (Mark 15:31-32; Matthew 27:44)

    What we believe has to be backed up by all the scriptures, not just isolated verses.
    Luke 23:43 does not say what you think it says....and neither does the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Please consider the evidence for yourself.
     
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