ABRAHAMICS ONLY: The Tree called the knowledge of good and evil, (Genesis: a closer look) continued.

[Yahcubs777]

Are you saying that not all humans have sinned? According the Paul, all have sinned, whether or not they are no longer sinners today.

The point is, how could they have sinned if they were created as "good trees"? If disobedience is a sin, and sin comes from a corrupted tree, then Adam and Eve were corrupt trees, producing corrupted fruit. Right?


If they had not fallen short of God, then why were they cast from the Garden and the whole of Creation fell? Was the fruit of disobedience, a good fruit that the tree of their lives produced? If it was an evil fruit, and only evil fruit comes from evil trees, then they had to have been evil, according to you. And that was how they were created.

They couldn't have been good, and then became bad, if good alone was all they were.

Then how were they all resurrected and in their glorified state? In heaven immortal celestial and can never die again?

If all fell short of the glory, then Enoch and Elijah would not have lived forever as they did without dying at all.

 

[Yahcubs777]

It wasn't the Tree of Good and Evil. It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil -- a knowledge they needed in order to be able to learn and to make choices.

Makes no sense. Up till that point they had already understood what death is and made the choice not to eat of it. And it was Father Adam that was told, then he Adam, told Mother Eve. So they already understood what they should and shouldn't do.

 

[Yahcubs777]

Where do evil trees come from? Who created them? A different Creator? How many Gods are there?


"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Does this means, nobody is born of God?


I think you were, as you took Jesus's teaching about good and evil trees, as literal trees, and not a metaphor about human hearts. Whether that tree is made of wood, or some other fibrous materials, those are not the trees Jesus was talking about.

So Jesus was definitely was not talking about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. Why did you make that comparison, when he clearly meant the human heart?


Jesus was talking about the human heart and the fruit it bears, using trees as a metaphor. He was not giving a lesson in forestry. But God making humans in his image, does not mean God has a penis and a vagina both, because humans are made in his "likeness". That term 'image', or 'likeness', has nothing whatsoever to do with biology.


If you quoted Jesus saying a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, he was talking about the human heart. That's really quite obvious from the context, isn't it?

A metaphor is an "as if" statement, in the simplest understanding of them. A human's heart is "like" or "as if" it were a tree that is either healthy, or diseased. A diseased heart, produces bad fruit. A healthy heart produces healthy, or 'good' fruit.

Do you not see this in Jesus' metaphor? Do you see that he isn't talking about literal trees, and that verse has nothing to do with the Genesis story?


Salvation is just about being spared physical death? That's all it is?

Spared is not the right word. Rather more than conquerors is better. Can you defeat ageing, sickness and death? Or is the body you have destined to die?

Salvation is salvation from dying at all, be it physical or in the lake of fire, which is also physical.

 

[Yahcubs777]

What do you do with the verses that say Adam sinned?

Acknowledge the contradiction.

 

[Windwalker]

Then how were they all resurrected and in their glorified state? In heaven immortal celestial and can never die again?

If all fell short of the glory, then Enoch and Elijah would not have lived forever as they did without dying at all.

I think your theological thinking has some issues with it. If Adam and Eve brought sin into the world, and that all humans since have been stained by their sin, leading to everyone ever born to them inheriting their sin (something I assume you believe with the doctrine of original sin and all of that), then Enoch and Elijah were sinners too, but 'saved by Grace' the same as anyone else.

Are you suggesting they were sinless, and that's why they qualified to be resurrected? Paul's verses about how all have sinned, did not apply to them historically? All have sinned, except them?

 

[Windwalker]

Spared is not the right word. Rather more than conquerors is better. Can you defeat ageing, sickness and death? Or is the body you have destined to die?

Salvation is salvation from dying at all, be it physical or in the lake of fire, which is also physical.

So, it's purely about your biology being made immortal? Is that what salvation means to you? That you get to keep this youthful body of yours? Is this the point of why Jesus came and taught us, so that we don't have to die biologically? Is that the great hope of message of God's kingdom, immortal flesh? We do get to take it with us when we go?

 

[Yahcubs777]

I think your theological thinking has some issues with it. If Adam and Eve brought sin into the world, and that all humans since have been stained by their sin, leading to everyone ever born to them inheriting their sin (something I assume you believe with the doctrine of original sin and all of that), then Enoch and Elijah were sinners too, but 'saved by Grace' the same as anyone else.

Are you suggesting they were sinless, and that's why they qualified to be resurrected? Paul's verses about how all have sinned, did not apply to them historically? All have sinned, except them?

Good questions. Not exactly. Resurrection is not a reward. Even tares cast into the lake of fire are resurrected. But if a person is a child of resurrection they should aim to be justified for the first resurrection. Even so, all that died are resurrected.

The issue has been in not understanding what sin is. For example, why do you think it is written: blood cannot inherit the kingdom of GOD?

And in Genesis Adam said: this is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh (no mention of blood). And even Jesus His Pre-Eminence after HE resurrected HIMSELF said: touch me, a ghost has not flesh and bone like you see me have. Again no blood mentioned.

When you understand that blood is actually the sin nature spoken of, it becomes clearer what happened. That is why Isaiah calls sins red in colour. Blood is the reason the body is mortal, and ages falls sick and dies. Blood is also a result of a limited life span.

So everyone born in sin is because they were born as mortals, in flesh and blood bodies. So when Enoch and Elijah put of that mortal body, and put on their immortal body, they were not among them that fell short of the glory. The glory is coded for immortality.

 

[Yahcubs777]

So, it's purely about your biology being made immortal? Is that what salvation means to you? That you get to keep this youthful body of yours? Is this the point of why Jesus came and taught us, so that we don't have to die biologically? Is that the great hope of message of God's kingdom, immortal flesh? We do get to take it with us when we go?

Lol the glorified state is a different body entirely hahaha. It has no vital organs of the mortal body, it has no need of them. It is not even the same height it is 60ft in height. Eyes like fire, legs like brass, hair white like wool, clothed by glory raiments called Shekinah glory. It is the kind of body that is perfect.

Put simply, dying and going to the ghost world to wait for resurrection is not being saved from death, as death is what forced you out of your physical body. It is GOD who sends HIS children into the earth. The body you have is GOD given in that sense. But it is not the kind of body that is in HIS image and after HIS likeness as was written. This is the fallen state, the mortal state.

 

[Yahcubs777]

So, it's purely about your biology being made immortal? Is that what salvation means to you? That you get to keep this youthful body of yours? Is this the point of why Jesus came and taught us, so that we don't have to die biologically? Is that the great hope of message of God's kingdom, immortal flesh? We do get to take it with us when we go?

No, salvation is making heaven alive without taking any detour to the ghost world, and allowing maggots to feed on my body, the same body that GOD resurrects and then quickens at the resurrection. But that I can put on my immortal body in life without dying at all, by eating the Word of GOD.

 

[dybmh]

For me, it is not surpising that the book of Matthew and book of John do not 100% agree with the story of the Garden of Eden.

That said, I think that understanding the Tree of Knowledge comes from the analyzing the effect it had on Adam and Eve. After eating from the tree their eyes were opened. Now they were able to see not only "what is" but "what could be". This is what it means to be ashamed.

Ashamed is fear of what "could be" if someone finds out. Hiding from God is also seeing the possibility of what "could-be" but from a different perspective. Hiding means "it could be that they won't see me". Knoweldge of good and evil is the awareness of how one thing can be both good and bad. Sometimes this is expresed as optimism, sometimes pessimism. It's skeptism. But it's also hope.

This is refelcted in the story. After eating from the tree, Adam and eve put on fig leaves; "Hopefully no one will see us". Hope. Adam and Eve hide from God after hearing God's call? Hope becomes foolishness.

If this is true, the challenge for me is understanding Genesis 2:9. All the trees were good to eat including the Tree of Knowledge. The prohibtion says don't eat it, but eating it is good? The lesson taught is that failure followed by honest reconciliation is better than perfection. It directs a person towards a middle path where one can see the possibilites of good and evil, turns away from evil and does good. This includes seeing the possibility for good in the penalty for transgression, in that it leads to repentance.

 

[Yahcubs777]

So, it's purely about your biology being made immortal? Is that what salvation means to you? That you get to keep this youthful body of yours? Is this the point of why Jesus came and taught us, so that we don't have to die biologically? Is that the great hope of message of God's kingdom, immortal flesh? We do get to take it with us when we go?

Heaven is not a ghost world. Heaven is a celestial realm; a physical realm. In fact the earth is a shadow of the original. That is why there must be the resurrection first for the people that died, for them to enter into heaven with their transfigured body. Angels, Seraphim, Cherubim are all physical beings with their own anatomy. They are not ghosts.

 

[dybmh]

How can Adam sin if he is not in a fallen state to sin?

One possibility, when he learned that his helpmate would "surely die", he chose to die with her. It becomes romantic, like Romeo and Juliet.

 

[Yahcubs777]

If this is true, the challenge for me is understanding Genesis 2:9. All the trees were good to eat including the Tree of Knowledge. The prohibtion says don't eat it, but eating it is good?

This is the part where you are right. Yes the tree was good. Finally an answer. It's a shame we couldn't get past the seraph. There is what both Father Adam and Mother Eve did that was required for Mankind; for procreation. And it required an altar to be set, by eating from the trees in the Garden, 12 trees exactly; each pre-setting a function in the body needed for procreation. But of that last tree, the 13th tree, that is the tree that will set it all in motion; that will give them the kind of body that can die, as that was the body required for procreation.

A good tree brings forth good fruit, indeed.

And this is the death thy had to die to procreate as stated in John 12:24

 

[Yahcubs777]

One possibility, when he learned that his helpmate would "surely die", he chose to die with her. It becomes romantic, like Romeo and Juliet.

I wasn't so forthcoming with things earlier as I wanted you to see it for yourself, and understand what I was getting at first so it would help to explain it better.

Truly, she was a help mate for procreation as you said before. She willingly gave her womb for the procreation of the mankind race, which required her to leave her virgin state; her celestial state, and migrate her body to a mortal state where procreation is possible. And this was revealed in the life of Sarah and the Blessed Virgin Mary, who were both not in a state where Procreation was possible.

 

[dybmh]

And it was Father Adam that was told, then he Adam, told Mother Eve.

If so, then Eve lied to the serpent when she said:

3But of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, God said, "You shall not eat of it, and you shall not touch it, lest you die.'"
​

Did Eve know how to be deceptive at this point in the story? Did she simply miss-speak? Was it a little mistake?

Maybe I'm making too much of this small detail, but, it's possible that Eve is speaking the truth, and these are the eaxct words she heard from God?

 

[Yahcubs777]

If so, then Eve lied to the serpent when she said:

3But of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, God said, "You shall not eat of it, and you shall not touch it, lest you die.'"
​

Did Eve know how to be deceptive at this point in the story? Did she simply miss-speak? Was it a little mistake?

Maybe I'm making too much of this small detail, but, it's possible that Eve is speaking the truth, and these are the eaxct words she heard from God?

If so, then Eve lied to the serpent when she said:

3But of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, God said, "You shall not eat of it, and you shall not touch it, lest you die.'"
​

Did Eve know how to be deceptive at this point in the story? Did she simply miss-speak? Was it a little mistake?

Maybe I'm making too much of this small detail, but, it's possible that Eve is speaking the truth, and these are the eaxct words she heard from God?

Father Adam told her what GOD said. So it's fine. Just like a Prophet saying: the Word of the Lord came unto me: this saith the LORD: it's the same thing. Except Father Adam would say, his father said it.

 

[dybmh]

And in Genesis Adam said: this is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh (no mention of blood). And even Jesus His Pre-Eminence after HE resurrected HIMSELF said: touch me, a ghost has not flesh and bone like you see me have. Again no blood mentioned.

When you understand that blood is actually the sin nature spoken of, it becomes clearer what happened. That is why Isaiah calls sins red in colour. Blood is the reason the body is mortal, and ages falls sick and dies. Blood is also a result of a limited life span.

Very well said. I agree.

Have you ever asked yourself, where was the serpent when it was speaking to Eve?

 

[dybmh]

It's a shame we couldn't get past the seraph.

These things take time.

 

[dybmh]

12 trees exactly;

From my reading.. it's 24 trees. On both sides of the river?

 

[dybmh]

A good tree brings forth good fruit, indeed.

Not always. Good fruit falls to the earth, rots and attracts all manner of creatures. It's a mess.