About Judaism and the Messiah question

[Ehav4Ever]

I
EDIT: So, you admit it was a test?

Not a test. A check to understand how you decided that yeshua was mashiach ben-Yosef. I.e. the concept is only spelled out in certain texts and I have never seen a yeshua or even Christian beleiving source that calls yeshua or jesus "mashiach ben-Yosef." Also, since the term doesn't mean that the persons paternal father was Yosef but instead that said person was from the tribe Yosef I find it interesting when yeshua and jesus beleivers use it.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I am self taught. Self-taught Hebrew as well, among other things.
I am currently writing a post for the 'Introduce yourself' sub-forum.

Interesting. I look forward to reading it.

We all know the problems with the various versions of Matthew, especially the latter part
which was obviously later edited. However, much of it especially Sermon on the Mount is least likely to have been tampered with, and speaks best to me.

Which version do you use?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

How can anyone today, conclusively prove that they are a descendant of Judah, let alone of King David?

 

[Harel13]

I can read it, at a basic level. For some texts I need a good dictionary on hand. Many of the older guys in my community know since they grew up in Yemen. What I can tell you is that the better your Aramaic is the easier it becomes to read it.

Many of Rabbi Yoseph Qafahh's translations from Judeo-Arabic into Hebrew contain the original Judeo-Arabic on the left side and the Hebrew translation he did on the right. That helps a lot in learning.

That's really cool.

I don't know all that much about the language itself, so perhaps you could tell me: On books that have side-by-side translations (Rav Kafakh isn't the only one) - would it technically be possible to translate a text just by comparing such side-by-side translations, i.e., looking for the correct words in the Judeo-Arabic and checking out the parallels, or does one need a more wider/thorough understanding of the structure of the language?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

How can anyone today, conclusively prove that they are a descendant of Judah, let alone of King David?

As I posted before:

Thus, most Jewish sources agree that the standard is:

1. Jews living in Israel, as a whole, desire to return to the Torah as it was given at Mount Sinai. (Torah - written and oral)
2. A proven (נביא) prophet in the Jewish community receives something from Hashem that a particular Jewish man is the leader that Hashem has chosen. (Hashem will of course only pick someone who is proven to be an actual paternal descendeant of King David through Solomon.)
   • BTW - there are Jews today living in Israel from various communities who have families that reach back to King David through Solomon.)
3. A standing Mosaic Court/Sanhedrin is able to clarify the person is fit to be king as specified above.
   • Somewhere between the prophet and the Mosaic court an anointing with oil can happen. (The anointing with oil has a specific reason behind it, but it is a long explaination.)
4. Said person will receive prophecy from Hashem of what it is they are to do.
   • Just below the level that Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) had.
   • Probably on a level above Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua).
5. Using Torah based wisdom, prophecy, knowledge of science, economics, etc. said Davidic king will be able to lead the Israeli people and bring things back to they way they were between when Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses)/Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua) and Shlomo HaMelkh (Solomon) led.

What happened is that Jewish communities always had families who were very particular about record keeping. Thus, in various Jewish communities that have certain names that mark their ancestry.

For example, some Jews with the last name Cohen, Kohen, Kahn, etc. may often carry a family tradition that they descend from Aharon. The rules of who they can marry are very stringent and there are families who were very meticulious about keeping them and many of those families have members who kept family tree records. Of course there are some Jews who carry the name Cohen, Kahn, Kohen, etc. who were not so meticilous so they would be considered as being "Cohen enough for the current day." Yet, if there was a rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem those would be the first elimanted from the choice of who is to serve in the Temple.

That being said, there are some Jewish families who have a similar situation and a claim to descend from King David. Last names may be Dayyan, Shereshevski, Ma'atuf Dohh, Shemakh, Ram, etc.

Also, Davidic descendents were still around during the 2nd Temple period and way after. There was a point in Jewish history where the leader of the Jewish people, post 2nd Temple, was always from the Davidic background.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

That's really cool.

I don't know all that much about the language itself, so perhaps you could tell me: On books that have side-by-side translations (Rav Kafakh isn't the only one) - would it technically be possible to translate a text just by comparing such side-by-side translations, i.e., looking for the correct words in the Judeo-Arabic and checking out the parallels, or does one need a more wider/thorough understanding of the structure of the language?

The translations you have to be careful of are the ones where the person was simply translating word for word but that they not did understood the language and the concepts of the language. This was one of his criticisms of previous translations of the Rambam's writings that were in Judeo-Arabic.

But, yes what you stated can be done. You can essentially take the side by side, a good classical Arabic and Judeo-Arabic understanding and get the basics. What will help you is that by you already knowing Hebrew and Aramaic, Tanakh, and Halakha you have an eaiser time understanding what is being talked about. Where as someone who is not Jewish but understands Arabic fluently may not fully understand what they are reading.

 

[Harel13]

The translations you have to be careful of are the ones where the person was simply translating word for word but that they did understood the language and the concepts of the language. This was one of his criticisms of previous translations of the Rambam's writings that were in Judeo-Arabic.

But, yes what you stated can be done. You can essentially take the side by side, a good classical Arabic and Judeo-Arabic understanding and get the basics. What will help you is that by you already knowing Hebrew and Aramaic, Tanakh, and Halakha you have an eaiser time understanding what is being talked about. Where as someone who is not Jewish but understands Arabic fluently may not fully understand what they are reading.

Thank you. I was hoping that when I have time, I would translate somethings I want to read.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

That's really cool.

I don't know all that much about the language itself, so perhaps you could tell me: would it technically be possible to translate a text just by comparing such side-by-side translations,

Try out the below. It is the (מא כבר) from the Yemenite haggada. Kids read it since it summerises the entire hagada in case they fall asleep. It was also for women, who in Yemen, didn't understand Hebrew and only understood Arabic.

 

[rosends]

How can anyone today, conclusively prove that they are a descendant of Judah, let alone of King David?

My great grandfather wrote a book. On the opening page, he lists his father, grandfather, etc, tracing his family back to a guy named Horowitz. That guy wrote a book and on the opening page, he list HIS paternal line, tracing it back to a guy named Shlomo. Shlomo wrote some books and in them, he traces himself to a guy named David, who happens to have been king.

Of course, we are talking about my great grandfather through my dad's mother so I am not fully paternslly linked to king David, but there you go.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

EDIT: You're Yemenite? Fantastic, our family tradition is we're from Yemen too!
(Sadly I can learn no more about this, that generation has passed on)

I myself am not Yemenite. Part of my family is Sephardic. I am a part of the Yemenite community since when I was younger I was taught by the Yemenite community in NYC.

The family tradition you have from Yemen, this is your father's family or your mother's family? What area of Yemen were they from? Were they Baladi or Shami?

 

[Harel13]

Were they Baladi or Shami?

Maybe they were Darda'im?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Maybe they were Darda'im?

Highly unlikely.

Have you ever read Rabbi Yihhyeh Qafahh's book (מלחמות השם)?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Maybe they were Darda'im?

Read the attached and you will see what I mean.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Maybe they were Darda'im?

Milchamoth Hashem page 4

Page 70

page 81

Page 170

 

[Harel13]

Milchamoth Hashem page 4
View attachment 57603

Page 70
View attachment 57605

page 81

View attachment 57604

Page 170
View attachment 57606

I meant, of course, that he might be descended from Darda'im.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I meant, of course, that he might be descended from Darda'im.

I know.......HIGHLY UNLIKELY!

 

[rosends]

I only read the first question and answer and then the reply to the first answer. That brought a smile to my face, so thanks.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Not a test. A check to understand how you decided that yeshua was mashiach ben-Yosef. I.e. the concept is only spelled out in certain texts and I have never seen a yeshua or even Christian beleiving source that calls yeshua or jesus "mashiach ben-Yosef." Also, since the term doesn't mean that the persons paternal father was Yosef but instead that said person was from the tribe Yosef I find it interesting when yeshua and jesus beleivers use it.

Sorry then if I jumped to conclusion. So many have done this to me, giving me 'tests'. I react... badly to such things. It's my struggle.

I don't refer to genealogy when I use the term ben-Yosef, but the role, the archetype I see.

Have you ever read the story of Yosef in Me'am Lo'ez? You can take that same story and
drop it right into Matthew and it's eerie how it aligns! Look how it begins, Yosef's brothers
believe that Yosef was committing blasphemy, and that's why they sold him. Yeshua
was also accused likewise. Of course there''s differences in the stories but the most
shocking part is the ending. The key difference is Yosef was reconciled with his brothers
and when he died and the Egyptians attempted to create an idol out of him his brothers
prevented this. Yeshua was not reconciled and when Edom made an idol out of him,
there was no one to stop them. Then began the exiles.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Sorry then if I jumped to conclusion. So many have done this to me, giving me 'tests'. I react... badly to such things. It's my struggle.

I don't refer to genealogy when I use the term ben-Yosef, but the role, the archetype I see.

I understand, but where do you get the idea from to do that? Was this something that you found through research that the original Ebionites held by? Couldn't the same then be applied to being ben-David? I.e. Anyone from any background can claim to be a ben-David based on a role or archetype and not based on an ancestry.

Have you ever read the story of Yosef in Me'am Lo'ez?

Yes. Is that where you got the idea from?

You can take that same story and drop it right into Matthew and it's eerie how it aligns!

What version of Matthew? The Greek one, the Aramaic Pesheetta one, the Pesheetto one, the DuTillet Hebrew one, the Munster Hebrew one, etc? Also, where did you get the idea to go to Me'am Lo'ez to do such a thing? Also, and don't take this wrong way, if your Hebrew is at the level you stated it was how do you know that you are applying this correctly?

Look how it begins, Yosef's brothers believe that Yosef was committing blasphemy, and that's why they sold him. Yeshua was also accused likewise. Of course there''s differences in the stories but the most shocking part is the ending. The key difference is Yosef was reconciled with his brothers and when he died and the Egyptians attempted to create an idol out of him his brothers prevented this. Yeshua was not reconciled and when Edom made an idol out of him, there was no one to stop them. Then began the exiles.

There are several problems with what you have formulated above. First, you would have to establish that version of yeshua that you hold by is the actual historical truth. i.e. that your version vs. other versions is what is historically accurate. Second, you would have to prove (not from Talmud or commentaries) but from the peshat of the Hebrew Tanakh that what you hold by is established there w/o flaw. Third, you would have to prove that Hashem assigned yeshua to be what you claim he was. The last one in particular is a various serious one since claiming that Hashem did something Hashem didn't do would be on the level of a (נביא השקר).

Without that, anyone can make similar claims of themselves from what you posted and other areas in the Talmud and Commentaries which give a different view. Just so you know, Hazal also state that mashiahh ben-Yosef doesn't have to happen and that IF it does mashiahh ben-David happens "right after" mashiahh ben-Yosef dies fighting an actual physical war "leading the Jewish people into the war." On the flip side they say that mashiahh ben-David can happen w/o mashiahh ben-Yosef ever happening. That is what was written in what I posted to you from Rav Sa'adya Gaon.

Again, I haven't seen any early yeshua/jesus based source that ever used the concept you are mentioning. That is why I asked if it is something you learned from someone or something you developed yourself.

 

[YoursTrue]

Rebuilding the Temple would probably make the news.

No, The 7th Lubavitch Rebbe wasn't the Messiah.

Haven't read all the posts here, but how would you know that M. Schneerson was not the Messiah? Also, what about the Chabad movements? Do they believe M. Schneerson was the Messiah?