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About Judaism and the Messiah question

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Wondering what Jews believe (not sure if this is the right forum) about Maimonides and one of the articles of faith about the Messiah. In conjunction with Rambam's belief or conviction, do Jews currently believe that they will all have to be in Israel when the Messiah appears?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
From my POV, I thought the Messiah comes first and leads the Jewish people to gather in the land.
OK, I wasn't sure because someone told me that all the Jews would be in Israel and then the Messiah would come. I suppose he would be recognized by them by word of mouth? Or in the newspapers and media? Maybe on tv? I worked for a lawyer who was Jewish and he told me that when the end of the world comes he hopes the announcement would be on tv, so I wonder about how the Messiah according to Jewish reasoning on the matter, would be recognized. Apparently Rabbi Schneerson was not the Messiah, what do you think?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Wondering what Jews believe (not sure if this is the right forum) about Maimonides and one of the articles of faith about the Messiah. In conjunction with Rambam's belief or conviction, do Jews currently believe that they will all have to be in Israel when the Messiah appears?

Just for the record, what the Rambam wrote is a lot longer than what you may have read on the internet under articles of faith. Most of the versions that people know are summaries made by others of what the Rambam wrote in his commentary on the Mishnah - Mesechet Sanhedrin.

The Rambam details what the Tanakh states about the future Davidic king in the Mishnah Torah. See the below "English translation" from the Chabad web-site.

Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Melachim and Milchamoth chapter 11
In the future, the Messianic king will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel.​

Then, in his days, the observance of all the statutes will return to their previous state. We will offer sacrifices, observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years according to all their particulars as described by the Torah.​

Anyone who does not believe in him or does not await his coming, denies not only the statements of the other prophets, but those of the Torah and Moses, our teacher. The Torah testified to his coming, as Deuteronomy 30:3-5 states:​

Hashem will bring back your captivity and have mercy upon you. He will again gather you from among the nations... Even if your Diaspora is at the ends of the heavens, Hashem will gather you up from there... and bring you to the land....

These explicit words of the Torah include all the statements made by all the prophets.​

Reference to mashiahh is also made in the portion of Bilaam who prophesies about two anointed kings: the first anointed king, David, who saved Israel from her oppressors; and the final anointed king who will arise from his descendants and save Israel in the end of days. That passage Numbers 24:17-18 relates:

'I see it, but not now' - This refers to David;
'I perceive it, but not in the near future;" - This refers to the Messianic king;
'A star shall go forth from Jacob' - This refers to David;
'and a staff shall arise in Israel' - This refers to the Messianic king;
'crushing all of Moab's princes' - This refers to David as II Samuel 8:2 relates: 'He smote Moab and measured them with a line;'
'decimating all of Seth's descendants' - This refers to the Messianic king about whom Zechariah 9:10 prophesies: 'He will rule from sea to sea.'
'Edom will be demolished' - This refers to David as II Samuel 8:6 states 'Edom became the servants of David;'
'Seir will be destroyed' - this refers to the Messianic king as Ovadiah 1:21 prophesies: 'Saviors will ascend Mount Zion to judge the mountain of Esau....'

Similarly, with regard to the cities of refuge, Deuteronomy 19:8-9 states: 'When Hashem will expand your borders... you must add three more cities.' This command was never fulfilled. Surely, Hashem did not give this command in vain. There is no need to cite proofs from the works of the prophets for all their books are filled with mention of this matter.

One should not presume that the Messianic king must work miracles and wonders, bring about new phenomena in the world, resurrect the dead, or perform other similar deeds. This is definitely not true. Proof can be brought from the fact that Rabbi Akiva, one of the greater Sages of the Mishnah, was one of the supporters of King Bar Kozibah and would describe him as the Messianic king. He and all the Sages of his generation considered him to be the Messianic king until he was killed because of sins. Once he was killed, they realized that he was not the Mashiach. The Sages did not ask him for any signs or wonders. The main thrust of the matter is: This Torah, its statutes and its laws, are everlasting. We may not add to them or detract from them.

If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of Hashem, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach. If he succeeds in the above, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach.

He will then improve the entire world, motivating all the nations to serve Hashem together, as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of Hashem and serve Him with one purpose.'

If he did not succeed to this degree or was killed, he surely is not the redeemer promised by the Torah. Rather, he should be considered as all the other proper and complete kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. Hashem caused him to arise only to test the many, as Daniel 11:35 states: 'And some of the wise men will stumble, to try them, to refine, and to clarify until the appointed time, because the set time is in the future.'
Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Mashiach and was executed by the court was also alluded to in Daniel's prophecies, as ibid. 11:14 states: 'The vulgar among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.'

Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity? All the prophets spoke of Mashiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior who would gather their dispersed and strengthen their observance of the mitzvot. In contrast, Christianity caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humbled, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a power/god/person other than Hashem.

Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts, our thoughts. Ultimately, all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him will only serve to prepare the way for Mashiach's coming and the improvement of the entire world, motivating the nations to serve Hashem together as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of Hashem and serve Him with one purpose.'

How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with the mention of Mashiach, Torah, and mitzvot. These matters have been spread to the furthermost islands to many stubborn-hearted nations. They discuss these matters and the mitzvot of the Torah, saying: 'These mitzvot were true, but were already negated in the present age and are not applicable for all time.'

Others say: 'Implied in the mitzvot are hidden concepts that can not be understood simply. The Mashiach has already come and revealed those hidden truths.'

When the true Messianic king will arise and prove successful, his position becoming exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage and their prophets and ancestors caused them to err.​
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
From my POV, I thought the Messiah comes first and leads the Jewish people to gather in the land.

If you look at the prophets they make it clear that there will be Jews in the land of Israel before hand. Also, Rambam points this out in Iggereth Teiman and other places.


 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
OK, I wasn't sure because someone told me that all the Jews would be in Israel and then the Messiah would come. I suppose he would be recognized by them by word of mouth? Or in the newspapers and media? Maybe on tv? I worked for a lawyer who was Jewish and he told me that when the end of the world comes he hopes the announcement would be on tv, so I wonder about how the Messiah according to Jewish reasoning on the matter, would be recognized. Apparently Rabbi Schneerson was not the Messiah, what do you think?
Rebuilding the Temple would probably make the news.

No, The 7th Lubavitch Rebbe wasn't the Messiah.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
OK, I wasn't sure because someone told me that all the Jews would be in Israel and then the Messiah would come. I suppose he would be recognized by them by word of mouth? Or in the newspapers and media? Maybe on tv? I worked for a lawyer who was Jewish and he told me that when the end of the world comes he hopes the announcement would be on tv, so I wonder about how the Messiah according to Jewish reasoning on the matter, would be recognized.

It is important to remember that in English messiah means something different than what a Davidic king is in Hebrew and for Jews. The way that it will be know who such a king will be is based on two requirements.
  1. We would need someone who has been proven to be a (נביא) prophet among the Jewish people to identify someone as being a) from the tribe of Yehudah and b) as being a valid paternal descendent of David through Shlomo (Solomon).
  2. There must be a standing Mosaic court to certify the situation. I.e. there has to be a Sanhedrin or Torah based Supreme Court who can back up what the prophet is stating.
After these two things, everything I listed above that the Rambam stated would come into play. I.e. he [the Davidic king] would have to keep Torah and Halakha as it was received at Mount Sinai, he would have to be a respected teacher/leader/scholar in Torah, he would have to be a (נביא) prophet lower than Mosheh (Moses) but wiser than Shlomo (Solomon).

Thus, as a part of the process Jews outside of Israel would return in whole, there would be a restored Torah based government/social structure in Israel, and the Temple would be restored. In what order that all happens we don't focus on. When it happens it happens.
 

Sedim Haba

Outa here... bye-bye!
The formula of exile and return is plain in the Torah in Deuteronomy 30 1-5.
When Israel repents, G-d returns them to their land. Not before.

When all these things befall you—the blessing and the curse that I have set before you—and you take them to heart amidst the various nations to which the LORD your God has banished you,
and you return to the LORD your God, and you and your children heed His command with all your heart and soul, just as I enjoin upon you this day,
then the LORD your God will restore your captivity and take you back in love. He will bring you together again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you.
Even if your outcasts are at the ends of the world, from there the LORD your God will gather you, from there He will fetch you.
And the LORD your God will bring you to the land that your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will make you more prosperous and more numerous than your fathers.
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
Just for the record, what the Rambam wrote is a lot longer than what you may have read on the internet under articles of faith. Most of the versions that people know are summaries made by others of what the Rambam wrote in his commentary on the Mishnah - Mesechet Sanhedrin.

The Rambam details what the Tanakh states about the future Davidic king in the Mishnah Torah. See the below "English translation" from the Chabad web-site.

Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Melachim and Milchamoth chapter 11
In the future, the Messianic king will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel.​

Then, in his days, the observance of all the statutes will return to their previous state. We will offer sacrifices, observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years according to all their particulars as described by the Torah.​

Anyone who does not believe in him or does not await his coming, denies not only the statements of the other prophets, but those of the Torah and Moses, our teacher. The Torah testified to his coming, as Deuteronomy 30:3-5 states:​

Hashem will bring back your captivity and have mercy upon you. He will again gather you from among the nations... Even if your Diaspora is at the ends of the heavens, Hashem will gather you up from there... and bring you to the land....

These explicit words of the Torah include all the statements made by all the prophets.​

Reference to mashiahh is also made in the portion of Bilaam who prophesies about two anointed kings: the first anointed king, David, who saved Israel from her oppressors; and the final anointed king who will arise from his descendants and save Israel in the end of days. That passage Numbers 24:17-18 relates:

'I see it, but not now' - This refers to David;
'I perceive it, but not in the near future;" - This refers to the Messianic king;
'A star shall go forth from Jacob' - This refers to David;
'and a staff shall arise in Israel' - This refers to the Messianic king;
'crushing all of Moab's princes' - This refers to David as II Samuel 8:2 relates: 'He smote Moab and measured them with a line;'
'decimating all of Seth's descendants' - This refers to the Messianic king about whom Zechariah 9:10 prophesies: 'He will rule from sea to sea.'
'Edom will be demolished' - This refers to David as II Samuel 8:6 states 'Edom became the servants of David;'
'Seir will be destroyed' - this refers to the Messianic king as Ovadiah 1:21 prophesies: 'Saviors will ascend Mount Zion to judge the mountain of Esau....'

Similarly, with regard to the cities of refuge, Deuteronomy 19:8-9 states: 'When Hashem will expand your borders... you must add three more cities.' This command was never fulfilled. Surely, Hashem did not give this command in vain. There is no need to cite proofs from the works of the prophets for all their books are filled with mention of this matter.

One should not presume that the Messianic king must work miracles and wonders, bring about new phenomena in the world, resurrect the dead, or perform other similar deeds. This is definitely not true. Proof can be brought from the fact that Rabbi Akiva, one of the greater Sages of the Mishnah, was one of the supporters of King Bar Kozibah and would describe him as the Messianic king. He and all the Sages of his generation considered him to be the Messianic king until he was killed because of sins. Once he was killed, they realized that he was not the Mashiach. The Sages did not ask him for any signs or wonders. The main thrust of the matter is: This Torah, its statutes and its laws, are everlasting. We may not add to them or detract from them.

If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of Hashem, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach. If he succeeds in the above, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach.

He will then improve the entire world, motivating all the nations to serve Hashem together, as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of Hashem and serve Him with one purpose.'

If he did not succeed to this degree or was killed, he surely is not the redeemer promised by the Torah. Rather, he should be considered as all the other proper and complete kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. Hashem caused him to arise only to test the many, as Daniel 11:35 states: 'And some of the wise men will stumble, to try them, to refine, and to clarify until the appointed time, because the set time is in the future.'
Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Mashiach and was executed by the court was also alluded to in Daniel's prophecies, as ibid. 11:14 states: 'The vulgar among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.'

Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity? All the prophets spoke of Mashiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior who would gather their dispersed and strengthen their observance of the mitzvot. In contrast, Christianity caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humbled, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a power/god/person other than Hashem.

Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts, our thoughts. Ultimately, all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him will only serve to prepare the way for Mashiach's coming and the improvement of the entire world, motivating the nations to serve Hashem together as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of Hashem and serve Him with one purpose.'

How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with the mention of Mashiach, Torah, and mitzvot. These matters have been spread to the furthermost islands to many stubborn-hearted nations. They discuss these matters and the mitzvot of the Torah, saying: 'These mitzvot were true, but were already negated in the present age and are not applicable for all time.'

Others say: 'Implied in the mitzvot are hidden concepts that can not be understood simply. The Mashiach has already come and revealed those hidden truths.'

When the true Messianic king will arise and prove successful, his position becoming exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage and their prophets and ancestors caused them to err.​

I don't see the Messiah mentioned as the one who brings Israel back in Deut 30:1-5. How is it determined that it is the Messiah who does this?
As a Christian I could understand Isa 49:6 as about the Messiah doing that but I understand you think that is speaking about Isaiah.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I don't see the Messiah mentioned as the one who brings Israel back in Deut 30:1-5. How is it determined that it is the Messiah who does this?
As a Christian I could understand Isa 49:6 as about the Messiah doing that but I understand you think that is speaking about Isaiah.

Greetings,

You have to remember the concepts you have as Christians are not shared in the Hebrew Tanakh. Even the Christian definition of a "messiah" is not corralated to the concept of a (משיח) i.e. a leader who is anointed with oil. In this situation a Davidic King.

That being said, think of it in the following way. Jews of today are descendents of the israelis who were brought out of Egypt. There are times in the Hebrew Torah it is written that Hashem brought Israel out of Egypt and there are times where it is written as if Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) did it. During that time Hashem brought Israel out of Egypt and the person who Hashem chose to faciliate and lead the people out of Egypt was Hashem. Hashem gets the credit for causing, creating, and facilitating the who operation. Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) is credited with being the leader that Hashem built up, instructed, and instituted as the mechanisim for the operation.

By like token the future Davidic king will be the person/leader that Hashem will choose to facilitate/lead the return of the entire Jewish people to the land of Israel. I.e. the credit will go to Hashem since Hashem will chose to faciliate and lead the return of the remaining Jews to Israel.

Please note: That according to the Tanakh Jews being in the land of Israel doesn't mean that the exile is over. Until there is a Torah based government structure with Davidic king, we Jews are still in some level of exile.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
As a Christian I could understand Isa 49:6 as about the Messiah doing that but I understand you think that is speaking about Isaiah.

Concerning Yeshayahu (what Christians call Isaiah), here is a video I did in response to a Christian missionary about Christians view things there.

 

Sedim Haba

Outa here... bye-bye!
I'd agree with everything that Ehav4Ever has stated in post #10, however I'd like to point out:

Please note: That according to the Tanakh Jews being in the land of Israel doesn't mean that the exile is over. Until there is a Torah based government structure with Davidic king, we Jews are still in some level of exile.

A secular state of Jews in the land of Israel actually makes ending exile much, much more difficult, IMHO.

Barring a miracle, I don't see a redemption coming. The opposite in fact.

The Davidic king is the most probable method that HaShem would use to return the exiled Jews
back to the land, but there was a time before we had kings and it was the Sanhedrin and Temple
service that formed the Nation.

There isn't just one exile and redemption established by Deuteronomy, so there is not just one
Messiah, and that a Messiah does not necessarily need be a king if there is no kinghood established.

HaShem is the only king we actually need. And he can use whatever method he chooses to manifest his will.

Not only that, just as there is a Messiah ben David who leads back from exile, there can also be a
Messiah ben Yosef who establishes a place for the nation's exile. Yosef brought Israel into Egypt.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Not only that, just as there is a Messiah ben David who leads back from exile, there can also be a
Messiah ben Yosef who establishes a place for the nation's exile. Yosef brought Israel into Egypt.

If I remember correctly you define yourself as an Ebionite correct? Thus, you follow Yeshua/some form of the book of Matthew. I beleive that is what you meant in your post HERE, right?

If so, we won't agree on what you stated above. ;)
 

Palehorse

Active Member
Wondering what Jews believe (not sure if this is the right forum) about Maimonides and one of the articles of faith about the Messiah. In conjunction with Rambam's belief or conviction, do Jews currently believe that they will all have to be in Israel when the Messiah appears?
The jews will inherit the earth..just as scripture says.....and 5he earth will be as hot as mfh...
 

Sedim Haba

Outa here... bye-bye!
If I remember correctly you define yourself as an Ebionite correct? Thus, you follow Yeshua/some form of the book of Matthew. I beleive that is what you meant in your post HERE, right?

If so, we won't agree on what you stated above. ;)

Quite right, Matthew ONLY
(sometimes when I'm extremely frustrated with replacement theology, ONLY the Sermon on the MT.)

I follow Yeshua ONLY because to me he is Meshiach ben Yosef, the precursor to Galut Edom.

NOT ben David or any kind of divinity. I am Israel, no intermediary is required or allowed.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Quite right, Matthew ONLY
(sometimes when I'm extremely frustrated with replacement theology, ONLY the Sermon on the MT.)

I follow Yeshua ONLY because to me he is Meshiach ben Yosef, the precursor to Galut Edom.

NOT ben David or any kind of divinity. I am Israel, no intermediary is required or allowed.

If you don't mind me asking:
  1. Are you a part of community that holds these ideas you mentioned?
  2. Who is the leader/teacher/etc. of your community?
  3. Do you have a (מסורת) for what you hold by?
  4. Were you born into a family that holds by those ideas? (Father and Mother)
  5. What version of Matthew do you hold as being authentic?
  6. What are thoughts on the below?
upload_2021-11-16_10-3-33.png
 

Sedim Haba

Outa here... bye-bye!
If you don't mind me asking:
  1. Are you a part of community that holds these ideas you mentioned?
  2. Who is the leader/teacher/etc. of your community?
  3. Do you have a (מסורת) for what you hold by?
  4. Were you born into a family that holds by those ideas? (Father and Mother)
  5. What version of Matthew do you hold as being authentic?
  6. What are thoughts on the below?
View attachment 57571

1-5 I'll have to compose something later, it's 2am and while I'm retired I have farm chores before dawn

6. You'll have to tell me where that is from. I can read prayerbook hebrew, but still need a Chumash with translations
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
1-5 I'll have to compose something later, it's 2am and while I'm retired I have farm chores before dawn

No problem.

6. You'll have to tell me where that is from. I can read prayerbook hebrew, but still need a Chumash with translations

It is from a book called Emunoth and Deoth by Rav Saadya Gaon who lived (882/892 – 942 CE). The section that I posted deals with the concept of mashiahh ben-yosef and what are the concepts behind it and what are not the concepts behind it.
 
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