He identifies as Karaite / Ebionite...now, I know that those are two different groups, but I assume he is a Karaite who became a certain type of Messianic Jew.
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About Judaism and the Messiah question
- Thread starter YoursTrue
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Yes I understand that about Moses and Hashem, but still wonder how the Messiah is the one to do the leading from Deut 30 or another verse in the Tanakh.
Christians have a time of the exiles which seems to end when Jerusalem stops being trampled under foot by the gentiles. This is probably when the Temple will be built and the Torah based government structure will start.
Luke 21:20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
That time seems to be approaching but Jerusalem still is being trampled on by Gentiles.
Have all the Messiah claimants in the past been anointed by oil? and if so, why and by whom and when?
Sorry, too many questions. Only if you know the answers.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Sorry the audio is non existent on my computer. Maybe I could try to see it on my phone or something.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Cyrus no doubt is the anointed who caused Israel to return to the land.
I see the Messiah ben Davis and Messiah ben Joseph as the one Messiah of course.
What do you say about the anointing of the Messiah with oil?
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
I am not sure it went in that direction. Most Karaites I have come across are anti-Jesus of all flavors. Most of the times it is Messianic somehow first then partially Karaite later.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Israel did have the intermediation of the priests, who of course were also part of Israel, as Jesus, the priest in the order of Melchizedek is.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Because, from the Hebrew text of the Tanakh, the Davidic king is the method that Hashem uses to bring the exile to an end. For example, in place of Hashem magically teleporting all Jews back to Israel a leader of the Jewish people in Israel is the method. I.e. he will lead the way for Jews outside of Israel to want to be here and most likely lead how it actually works in reality. I.e. by boat, plane, escape, convincing governments to let Jews go, immagration, etc. Mass immagration of Jewish groups spread around the world to Israel has been done in the past and it took a lot of leadership and infrastructure building. We Torath Mosheh Jews see this has the hand of Hashem. No different than when Ezra lead exiled Jews back to Israel. That was also by the hand of Hashem even though Ezra lead it.
This is what Devarim 30, in the Hebrew text, is talking about. We Jews have what is called a (מסורת) "mesoreh" that was passed down from the Prophets through the generations that helps us understand how to understand the Hebrew text of the Tanakh.
And you guys get that from non Hebrew Tanakh sources. As you posted. I.e. you posted from Luke which is not a reliable source of Hebrew Tanakh understand as far as Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews are concerned.
It depends. None of the false messiahs have been anointed with oil as Jewish law specifies it, that would include Jesus. It is always possible that there have been some claiments out there who found some oil somewhere and poured it on themselves.
The bigger issue that the minute that someone "claims to be a messiah" we know they are lying or are misled. It is pretty much an automatic 3 strikes you are out. There are sources that state that was the case with Bar Kockva and also the "historical Jesus" that the authors of the NT were inspired by.
Although, what has happened in the past is that during times of diffuculty in exile there have been periods where someone rose up and fooled certain Jews into beleiving that someone was "potentially" a Davidic king candidate. I.e. all Torah based Jews want the exile to end but there are some people who have been blinded by that desire where they put the reasoning skills aside.
Yet, in each of those cases the minute that someone "declared themselves" as (משיח) there have been leaders of Jewish communities who had to stand up and warn the people that the person was a fraud. In some cases the warning came to late such as with Shabbatei Tzi. Similar to the effect that Jesus had historically, each time this has happened it cost a lot of Jewish lives.
Thus, most Jewish sources agree that the standard is:
- Jews living in Israel, as a whole, desire to return to the Torah as it was given at Mount Sinai. (Torah - written and oral)
- A proven (נביא) prophet in the Jewish community receives something from Hashem that a particular Jewish man is the leader that Hashem has chosen. (Hashem will of course only pick someone who is proven to be an actual paternal descendeant of King David through Solomon.)
- BTW - there are Jews today living in Israel from various communities who have families that reach back to King David through Solomon.)
- A standing Mosaic Court/Sanhedrin is able to clarify the person is fit to be king as specified above.
- Somewhere between the prophet and the Mosaic court an anointing with oil can happen. (The anointing with oil has a specific reason behind it, but it is a long explaination.)
- Said person will receive prophecy from Hashem of what it is they are to do.
- Just below the level that Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) had.
- Probably on a level above Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua).
- Using Torah based wisdom, prophecy, knowledge of science, economics, etc. said Davidic king will be able to lead the Israeli people and bring things back to they way they were between when Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses)/Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua) and Shlomo HaMelkh (Solomon) led.
Questions are great. Not a problem at all.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
No problem.
We won't know until he answers.
'Course, there was a pretty famous Karaite named Mishwayahi al-Ukbari (I probably misspelled it) who was considered an extremist Karaite and eventually converted to Christianity.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Who was he exactly and when did he live?
Sedim Haba
Outa here... bye-bye!
Ebionites came well before the Karaites. Today you can be both.
You don't get to declare what I am.
BTW, You really didn't expect me to be able to read that Judeo-Arabic did you? You're just grandstanding.
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Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
You are right, I don't get to decide who you are. You are also right that the Ebionites predated the Karaites. Thus, if you are a Ebionite, as you described yourself, and the Karaite movement started way after the Ebionites dissappeared and the Karaite movement was started by non-Ebionite and non-yeshua beleiving Jews. Thus, it would stand to reason that you are not a Karaite, at least not by the standard and historical definition of what a Karaite is.
Also, Jews who have a family history of being Karaite aren't/and were never Ebionites.
Here is a Karaite web-site. You will notice that none of them claim to have a history of being Ebionite.
מבוא | היהדות הקראית העולמית
Also, here is the Karaite Korner web-site that states that Karaites don't beleive in yeshua/jesus.
Karaite FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions About Karaism
Thus, if you define as a Karaite it is obviously something different than what has been historically Karaitism.
That is what I mean.
Sedim Haba
Outa here... bye-bye!
I don't see it as a required pre-requisite. The proof is in success.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Actually, what I posted earlier was as a Hebrew translation of what Rav Saadya Gaon wrote and not the original Judeo-Arabic. I have the original Judeo-Arabic at home I know that a large number people can't read it these days so I would never use that as a test.
Grandstanding no. Trying to understand what your concept of being an Ebionite is about yes.
I wish I knew Judeo-Arabic. Do you know it?
Sedim Haba
Outa here... bye-bye!
I don't think I am a historically accurate Karaite OR Ebionite. It's simply the most accurate label.
Likewise do you think you are a historically accurate Israelite? How far back can you go before
what you practice is significantly divergent from the original? Second Temple? FIRST Temple?
Did I not answer this back in post #15?
Matthew only, check.
Yeshua is NOT Messiah ben David OR divine so ...Christian... obviously not.
Yeshua as Messiah ben Yosef... yes.
What this means... I have the advantage of history, the original Ebionites did not.
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Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
I can read it, at a basic level. For some texts I need a good dictionary on hand. Many of the older guys in my community know since they grew up in Yemen. What I can tell you is that the better your Aramaic is the easier it becomes to read it.
Many of Rabbi Yoseph Qafahh's translations from Judeo-Arabic into Hebrew contain the original Judeo-Arabic on the left side and the Hebrew translation he did on the right. That helps a lot in learning.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Greetings,
You did explain it a bit, but there are some things that aren't clear to me. I am trying to understand how you came to it. Were you born into a family that holds the way you describe or did you learn it from someone or did you teach it to yourself?
Also, which version of Matthew do you use? I have heard of only two "older" Hebrew versions of Matthew (Munster and DuTillet) which have a bit of a shady history. Are you saying you posses a version of Matthew that came from the original Ebionites?
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
If you don't mind me asking. In what way do you see yourself as a Karaite and in what way do you see yourself as an Ebionite? I.e. what actuall practices and concepts that you hold by would make you define yourself by those titles?
I am an Israeli/Jew who lives in Israel. Part of my family is from Sephardic Jews but I am a part of the Yemenite Jewish community here in Jerusalem. In terms of how far back what I practice goes back - basically from Mount Sinai to the present. I.e. all Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish communities have (מסורות) that can be traced back starting at Mount Sinai and continuing to the present day. The below video may help with explaining what I mean.
Sedim Haba
Outa here... bye-bye!
I am self taught. Self-taught Hebrew as well, among other things.
I am currently writing a post for the 'Introduce yourself' sub-forum.
We all know the problems with the various versions of Matthew, especially the latter part
which was obviously later edited. However, much of it especially Sermon on the Mount
is least likely to have been tampered with, and speaks best to me.
EDIT: You're Yemenite? Fantastic, our family tradition is we're from Yemen too!
(Sadly I can learn no more about this, that generation has passed on)