A Western Feminist Defends the Muslim Veil

[Aquitaine]

100 Countries and Their Prostitution Policies - Prostitution - ProCon.org
Prostitution in Five Countries

Hope brother it will satisfy u, plz dont think I want to win a debate or anything, its just helping clear my point . Thanks for being kind and friendly

Ah good, you've atleast provided me with some sources. I had to ask because I get a lot of people who just say "There is no crime in Muslim countries, only in Western countries" type of things, I had to make sure you weren't one of those types.

Now, interesting, in the UK (where I'm from) Prostitution is infact legal. That hoenstly comes as a suprise to me, I thought it was illegal. On closer inspection, it seems Street Prostitution, owning/running a Brothel, and Pimping is illegal, yet "Prostitution" isn't. That doesn't seem to make sense to me to be honest, it seems the whole thing should just be illegal.

As for the US, I cannot talk for them. Though it is part of "the West", it's not my country. Of course, I do acknowledge crime in the West, every country has crime. however, I simply don't believe it's because the West isn't Islamic.

 

[MissAlice]

Another good question would be, how many women are raped in the east but don't have the right to report simply because it was their fault?

Not all countries give the freedoms to women like they do in the west whenever there is a case involving a sexual crime against a female. In fact in some islamic countries, the woman gets stoned for it.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

What do you make of Wolf's article?

What do you make of the controversy?

Since i am familiar with arabs i know a bit more than the average westerner or in this case the lady that was invited once to an all womens gathering.

In the end its not a matter of veil or hijab or niqab or whatever. Its a matter of choice. If there is choice then it doesnt matter if you put something on or not.
Just like nobody cares if you color your hair or put on pink jeans.

So indeed i agree with her if she says that the west has concentrated too much on the veil as a symbol of female supression.

On the other hand one must say that there is not as much choice as she wants to make us believe. Its not that women generally can choose to seperate between what she calls public and private.

 

[syberpriend]

Ah good, you've atleast provided me with some sources. I had to ask because I get a lot of people who just say "There is no crime in Muslim countries, only in Western countries" type of things, I had to make sure you weren't one of those types.

Now, interesting, in the UK (where I'm from) Prostitution is infact legal. That hoenstly comes as a suprise to me, I thought it was illegal. On closer inspection, it seems Street Prostitution, owning/running a Brothel, and Pimping is illegal, yet "Prostitution" isn't. That doesn't seem to make sense to me to be honest, it seems the whole thing should just be illegal.

As for the US, I cannot talk for them. Though it is part of "the West", it's not my country. Of course, I do acknowledge crime in the West, every country has crime. however, I simply don't believe it's because the West isn't Islamic.

Dear Brother Paul,
Thanks for posting message, and accepting the facts with open heart and mind, I will just say that I didnnt said that western countries are non-muslim dats y the crime is more there, its cause of the teachings and implementations of laws, morals given and followed by religion laws, which muslim countries addopt more, and adhere strictly to thsoe laws, such as hijab, punishment , which west feel as un-humman, like sis Alice just mentioned women are stoned, its not only women, but men are equaly treated wiith severe punishment, best example is of 2nd Caliph (ruler) of Islam , Umar, Just after death of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), under his rule, 1 woman reported she was raped by a man some time ago, and she recognnised the man, it was the son of the Caliph, and straight away Umar wennt to home, and his son was eating, he let him finish eat, and after which, he was punishedd with lashes, in which he died as well.
so basic point is, as the topic say, Hijab is an identity of muslim women, and its not only for women, its for men as well, to lowerr their gaze, and guard themselves of staring lust fuly towards women.
Even its reportred in Bible, Jesus ordered to stone a woman caught in adultery.
Hope everything is clear to all my non-muslim bro and sis.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Hijab is ok ,but freedom has to be given.
Niqab has to be banned watsoever.There is fine limit between religion and rationality.

 

[Gharib]

Another good question would be, how many women are raped in the east but don't have the right to report simply because it was their fault?

Not all countries give the freedoms to women like they do in the west whenever there is a case involving a sexual crime against a female. In fact in some islamic countries, the woman gets stoned for it.

can you please prove this to be true? otherwise it's just your oppinion.

 

[Gharib]

Hijab is ok ,but freedom has to be given.
Niqab has to be banned watsoever.There is fine limit between religion and rationality.

thats just your oppinion, doesn't mean much.

 

[Metempsychosis]

This is the reason the rate of rape and crimes are less in muslim countries, and nudity pornography, prostitution is less in muslim countries as compared to western countries

This is fallacious reasoning,Am in the east,most muslim countries are most intolerant ones who manipulate the media.This used to say that dont have crimes.crap!!!

See their track record against Baha i'.I am not talking about ur religious philosophy.Am i telling that most Islamic nations are intolerant.See taliban and saudi guys forced barqa to all.
They are outright materialists who call themselves to be religious.Sex is allowed ,then y do u need pornography??

 

[Bismillah]

This is fallacious reasoning,Am in the east,most muslim countries are most intolerant ones who manipulate the media.See their track record against Baha i'.
They are outright materialists who call themselves to be religious.Sex is allowed ,then y do u need pornography??

Do you understand the meaning of the word "materialists"? If most Muslim countries are the most intolerant ones do you blame the religion or the people. Do you blame the illiterate villager who supports the Jihad, do you blame the Westerners who have in some way created adversity in his life, or do you blame the Qur'an which he cannot read? Do you blame those who deviate from the pillars of a religion or do you blame the pillars itself?

 

[Yerda]

I mean, so what - in most cases, it's just a case of extra Melanin (sp?) and slightly different facial features and bone mass. Why should such things be "grounds" for descrimination or prejudice? It's rediculous.

'Ridiculous', and yes it is.

However, I sincerely object to you using the word "Racist" to apply to someone who doesn't like Muslims.

Look, I don't know how many folks you know with a hatred for Muslims, but if you can find some who don't use the words "Muslim" and "paki" interchangeably throughout their drivel I'll be surprised. The knuckle-draggers aren't concerned with theology or demographics, their caveman sensibilities are ruffled because there are people with dark skin and strange accents in "their" country. Folk with different racial make-up, as you put it. If a person hates Muslims in general, s/he is probably racist and won't get the benefit of the doubt from me.

Not only that, but you'll be adding the fuel to the fire of people who will stereotype you as a spineless apologist: "Oh, you see, once again, they call me Racist for criticizing Islam, the same old Left-wing spineless apologists!".

I see. I'm not sure what's spineless about calling out racism, or who it's apologising for, but quite frankly I've little fear of being derogated by idiots.

Just to be clear though, I've never called anyone racist for criticizing Islam, I've yet to come across widespread accusations of racism when people do criticise Islam, but I have encountered disturbing levels of anti-Muslim sentiment from the public and the media - much of it racist.

I've learn over time that I'm against certain interpretations and practices of Islam, not Muslims. There's a huge difference.

I guess if you didn't know this before I should congratulate you for coming to your senses at that point. Well done.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Do you understand the meaning of the word "materialists"? If most Muslim countries are the most intolerant ones do you blame the religion or the people. Do you blame the illiterate villager who supports the Jihad, or do you blame the Qur'an which he cannot read? Do you blame those who deviate from the pillars of a religion or do you blame the pillars itself?

Do i call Saudi Arabian leader a sufi saint????This debate has nothing to d with Islamic philosophy or sufi practices.I blame people who say Quran is literal and Islam is only right religion.It is prevalent in these forums and among moderate muslims.Extreme forms have been there right from the start of Islam.And Islam is proudly associated with state.
And when u are questioned they call fatwa on anything that is not their book.

Now see when burqa being banned is some country to play it fair,they make huge cry over it.But muslims collect taxes from non-muslims and prohibit all forms of public worship of other religions in around 10 coutries.Everyone know that women were caned in afghan for wearing hijab.Zoroastrians were thrown out of Iran.State policy of intolerance in middle east is wat more worrying than jihadis.Stoning and caning is going on see youtube.--------->Is this is not a personal opinion.
ok even when this is going on.
There are people who use illogical techniques,"rape is high in west " and "rape is low is Islamic country ,because of hijab"---->what has rape to do with dress in modern era??Eastern countries (like the one i am living in)have lot of problems, with their religious orthodoxy,poverty.There is no introspection among many muslim countries. Putting blame on others wont solve any probelms.

 

[syberpriend]

This is fallacious reasoning,Am in the east,most muslim countries are most intolerant ones who manipulate the media.This used to say that dont have crimes.crap!!!

u call it crap, uve proven record if crimes rapes prostitution hapening more in muslim countries thn west? show us plz here rather thn just posting false statements
.
See their track record against Baha i'.I am not talking about ur religious philosophy.Am i telling that most Islamic nations are intolerant.See taliban and saudi guys forced barqa to all.

iF Taiban and saudi guys forced burqa, do u have any prb with that? in India, even the hindu women and christians in Pakistan / Bangladesh, Nepal, women cover themselve, they take it as a tradition, y u Nuns in christianity cover their heads? some1 is forcing them???? This was the reaoson in saudi rape and sex abuse is les cause of women is hiden from bad eyes, cause if women is open like in west, its easyfor a man to overcome here,how many cases have u seen a woman raping a guy?>???

They are outright materialists who call themselves to be religious.Sex is allowed ,then y do u need pornography??

Sex is allowed, but should be after marriage, there are many christianis, on-muslims, who hate to do sex before marriage, and preserves themselves for their husbands only, u like to live like pigs, that who so ever can come and do sex with u and ur females? orry we muslims dont do that, we preserve and respect our women...

 

[Bismillah]

I want the materialism question answered. What do you think it means and how is it applicable?

I blame people who say Quran is literal and Islam is only right religion.

What do you blame them for, the flu?[/quote]

It is prevalent in these forums and among moderate muslims

What is prevalent?

Extreme forms have been there right from the start of Islam

Show me

And Islam is proudly associated with state.

Show me Sharia has an adverse affect on society.

Now see when burqa being banned is some country to play it fair,they make huge cry over it.

The French Banning the option to wear the Burkha is fair? Why is limiting the right to freedom of religion fair for French Muslims, the largest Muslim group in Europe?

But muslims collect taxes from non-muslims and prohibit all forms of public worship of other religions in around 10 coutries.

In exchange for the fact that non-believers cannot be drafted in the military. Furthermore is this not the result of political ideologies? Also, I would like to see which Muslim countries ban the public worship of all other religions.

Everyone know that women were in afgan for wearing hijab.

Umm...what?

Zoroastrians were thrown out of Iran

Where is it mandated to expel Zoroastrians in Shia Islam?

State policy of intolerance in middle east is wat more worrying than jihadis.

Exactly, state policy. As a result of political ideologies and events.

what has rape to do with dress in modern era??Eastern countries (like the one i am living in)have lot of problems, with their religious orthodoxy,poverty.There is no introspection among many muslim countries. Putting blame on others wont solve any probelms.

What does poverty have to do with religion? Actually, the majority of Muslims in the Middle and Far East admire the West's technological advances and freedoms , according to Gallup's Poll. Furthermore, a majority of Muslims are against the fundamentalism and terrorists, sensible when they are the ones who suffer the most at the hands of suicide bombers. I also agree, it is time Muslims took matters into their own hands. Progress is being made, like the fact that woman in Iran comprise the majority of educated citizens. However, all the problems you have listed remotely deal with religion. For example Brazil's literacy rate among women is comparable to that of Pakistan's. What's your point?

 

[Aquitaine]

Look, I don't know how many folks you know with a hatred for Muslims, but if you can find some who don't use the words "Muslim" and "paki" interchangeably throughout their drivel I'll be surprised. The knuckle-draggers aren't concerned with theology or demographics, their caveman sensibilities are ruffled because there are people with dark skin and strange accents in "their" country. Folk with different racial make-up, as you put it. If a person hates Muslims in general, s/he is probably racist and won't get the benefit of the doubt from me.

To be fair, I don't know many people with a hatred for Muslims. Instead, only Islam. Unfortunately, yes, I have seen people argue with non-Racist words like "Muslim" and "Paki" as if they're one, but of course with a lot of people like that you can simply tell what it is they're really concerned about - Race and difference.

People like that also add to the fire of thinking Islam is a Race, mostly because of their lack of knowledge on the subject, or maybe that they just don't care. However, for people who do know better, it's important not to confuse Islam as a Race. Now I will admit that a genuine case of a non-Racist having a hatred for Muslims is a little odd, or... rare in my opinion. I don't understand why anyone would hate people of a certain faith entirely, unless of course they had bad experiences with some, or just happen to disagree with a lot of people who're Muslim?

However, as you've said, a lot of Racists do hate on Muslims and veiw them as a Racial class, which is stupid. A person who has a prejudice hatred for people is an idiot too.

However, it is important not to tar those who criticize Islam, or happen to disagree with a lot of Muslims with the same brush. I'm one example, as you can tell. I'm also not a Racist.

I see. I'm not sure what's spineless about calling out racism, or who it's apologising for, but quite frankly I've little fear of being derogated by idiots.

But in many cases you won't be pointing out Racism, you'll be calling someone Racist for criticizing Islam. Or, you'll be pointing out Racist people and using their stance on Muslims as a justification for your accusation. But by doing so you're only gonna be egging them on more, because they'll point that out to you and add you to that stereotype.

Of course, it's obvious as to why you'd be calling the Racists Racist, because a lot of the time it's so obvious of their true intentions. All I'm saying is, be carefull not to say to them that it's because of what they've said about Muslims, because then they'll try corner you with the "Islam is not a Race" thing, and just accuse you of being one of those spineless CAIR appoligist etc.

I guess if you didn't know this before I should congratulate you for coming to your senses at that point. Well done.

Well, I've always known it was with Islam, but generally you have a habit of lumping all Muslims (with Islam) together. The same way as you do with Jews and the Torah, or Christians and the Bible. But, not all Muslims are the same, just like not all Jews and Christians etc.

There will be many Muslims whom I disagree with severely, but not all of them are the type that get's stereotyped in the Media - that's what I had to find out. Considering I don't live close to any Muslims, it was easy to believe all that hype and stereotyping. Foolish of me yes, but I've learnt.

 

[nsb]

I think that the people who rant on about what is, after all, an item of clothing -and imbue it with a degree of significance (such as has been given to the veil) beyond being a piece of material, are in grave danger of derangement. Why should we know or care if eg Jesus favoured a certain coloured cloth or whether he wore a tutu for that matter? Do we all feel the need to dress up as Buddha (or someone or other else) to achive enlightenment. It is a trite debate which once again belittles women by demoting them to objects/adornments/vain trinkets.

 

[elisheba]

modesty is healthier

 

[MissAlice]

modesty is healthier

Depends in how and what you define modest.

I have to agree to a certain extent that showing too much skin is a bit much but then again there are some natives living in the Amazon as well as other places who live in a society where they don't cover up much or anything at all for that matter. I doubt they see women being anymore of a sex object "asking for it" than an Islamic culture.

I've also known western men who look at hijabs and veils with more of a fetish than merely a modesty. So I wonder sometimes if it isn't just about how much a woman covers or not but how a culture sexualizes or emphasizes what she is wearing.

 

[Sunstone]

The veil is not a substitute for genuine modesty. Yet, I think some of those who are here arguing for the veil seem to think a woman cannot be modest without one. That does not comport with my experience.

 

[Gharib]

I think that the people who rant on about what is, after all, an item of clothing -and imbue it with a degree of significance (such as has been given to the veil) beyond being a piece of material, are in grave danger of derangement. Why should we know or care if eg Jesus favoured a certain coloured cloth or whether he wore a tutu for that matter? Do we all feel the need to dress up as Buddha (or someone or other else) to achive enlightenment. It is a trite debate which once again belittles women by demoting them to objects/adornments/vain trinkets.

so why do you dress at all? why the need to dress like every other person?

why are you following buddha and jesus, they wore clothes just like you.

 

[Gharib]

The veil is not a substitute for genuine modesty. Yet, I think some of those who are here arguing for the veil seem to think a woman cannot be modest without one. That does not comport with my experience.

it is not that a woman will not be modest if she didn't wear a hijab. but it is a little uncovering after another that is the problem. in an islamic society you will never hear men whistling to women on the street.

but in the quran when it comes to adultery Allah says, do not go near it. he doesn't say do not do it, he says do not go near it. therefore a proper dress code prevents people from getting near to adultery. you have christian nuns who are respected more than the average non muslim woman. why? well because she is a fully dressed and covered woman. it's the same in islam. women do not have to be nuns for us to respect them more than anything else. they just need to give the men an indication that they are women who want to be modest and respected as much as possible and thats what the islamic dress code which includes the veil does.