A Western Feminist Defends the Muslim Veil

[MysticSang'ha]

Sah-WEET, Paul. I'm half-way tempted now to start objectifying men and suggesting that they all dress the same way as in your ninja pic.

Tongue-in-cheek, of course.

 

[Aquitaine]

Sah-WEET, Paul. I'm half-way tempted now to start objectifying men and suggesting that they all dress the same way as in your ninja pic.

Tongue-in-cheek, of course.

I don't mind ^_^

As long as all Women then have to dress like this:

And this:

Damn right, I'm into that shizz - what're ya'll gonna do about it?

 

[YmirGF]

I've always said that a truly beautiful woman is one who struts her stuff and speaks her mind. It's her choice, too, in exactly how she struts her stuff and speaks her mind, though, and ideally should not be decided by anyone else but her. If she feels beautiful, alive, and sexual under a veil, I applaud her. If she feels liberated, powerful, and divine when she shows ample cleavage and most of her legs, I applaud her.

I agree, but more importantly, even if a woman decides she wants to strut down the street in the buff, that does not give anyone the right to sexually attack her. A gorgeous young woman who is wearing a nice short skirt and a revealing blouse is celebrating her form and it is only knuckledraggers who will think less of her for doing so or conclude that she is "easy" or even remotely interested in having sex with them.

I only find it shameful when entire societies of women are either forced or shamed into doing either one. A woman shouldn't ever be coerced into veiling herself or exposing herself.

It is even more shameful when people tell us that god wants human animals to cover up his alleged creation. Like, seriously.

Modesty is the "ideal" now for feminism? Please........like Miss Alice said, this has nothing to do with feminism. It's still informally codifying a woman's choice and behavior on societal norms that is not held to the same standard in men's circles. If anything, it still regurgitates the same tired song and dance that women have heard for centuries on how we ought to behave, dress, and speak.

Right on the money, momma. I found Ms. Wolfe's article to be almost completely barren of any actual content. I guess she thought she could make a quick buck off the delusions of others.

And for the record, I have never suggested that all women ought to act like me, either - loud, feisty, and mostly bare. :rainbow1:

I am all for women taking over this sad little world. They couldn't possibly screw it up as much as men have.


Though wearing the bedsheet of god is not a threat in the normal sense, it does represent a veiled threat, in my opinion and should be outlawed simply for security reasons. There is no law in Islam that mandates (interesting word, that) women adopt the "letter box" look.

 

[Aquitaine]

I agree, but more importantly, even if a woman decides she wants to strut down the street in the buff, that does not give anyone the right to sexually attack her. A gorgeous young woman who is wearing a nice short skirt and a revealing blouse is celebrating her form and it is only knuckledraggers who will think less of her for doing so or conclude that she is "easy" or even remotely interested in having sex with them.

It annoys me even more, like, really bad, when people say it's a Woman's fault for getting raped 'cause she was wearing a skirt etc.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It annoys me even more, like, really bad, when people say it's a Woman's fault for getting raped 'cause she was wearing a skirt etc.

In light of the last two posts on whose responsibility it is to prevent sexual assault: A friend of mine had found this brilliant bit online.

Sexual Assault Prevention Tips Guaranteed to Work!

1. Don’t put drugs in people’s drinks in order to control their behavior.
2. When you see someone walking by themselves, leave them alone!
3. If you pull over to help someone with car problems, remember not to assault them!
4. NEVER open an unlocked door or window uninvited.
5. If you are in an elevator and someone else gets in, DON’T ASSAULT THEM!
6. Remember, people go to laundry to do their laundry, do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.
7. USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM! If you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend to stay with you while you are in public.
8. Always be honest with people! Don’t pretend to be a caring friend in order to gain the trust of someone you want to assault. Consider telling them you plan to assault them. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the other person may take that as a sign that you do not plan to rape them.
9. Don’t forget: you can’t have sex with someone unless they are awake!
10. Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might assault someone “on accident” you can hand it to the person you are with, so they can blow it if you do.

 

[Yerda]

I constantly hear about people being branded "Racist" for criticizing Islam...

Have you any examples in mind?

I only ever hear this kinda stuff from genuine bigots, like the fools who write for The Sun or Daily Mail. The kind of eejits who talk about "Britishness" and "shared values" but are keen on any measure that comprimises democracy in the hunt for the ever elusive Terrorists. The types who believe tolerance and respect is "PC Gone Mad!".

When your friends call you a racist, by the way, it's maybe time to reflect.

 

[Aquitaine]

It's not all about media, you can just talk to people in general and get their opinions on certain people.

Have you any examples in mind?

Well, myself for example. I ask people what they think of Christopher Hitchens, Geert Wilders and Pat Condell (for example), and they all use the "R" word. Even their feedback is full of it. It's not all about what newspapers say, you can look yourself for it and get the views of others without joining an agenda of a paper.

I only ever hear this kinda stuff from genuine bigots, like the fools who write for The Sun or Daily Mail. The kind of eejits who talk about "Britishness" and "shared values" but are keen on any measure that comprimises democracy in the hunt for the ever elusive Terrorists. The types who believe tolerance and respect is "PC Gone Mad!".

I don't read The Sun at all, but Daily Mail isn't that bad providing you be cautious about what they write, and read into the full story from other sources, because their "stance" and titles can be very misleading. They're ShowBiz section sucks too. But then again, so does the likes of SKY News and many others. Which is why I try to check as many sources as I can when it comes to news, so no - don't try and passs me off as some "OMG you read the [insert paper here], therefore you're one of them types!".

When your friends call you a racist, by the way, it's maybe time to reflect.

No, they don't think I'm Racist by nature, it's just some of my veiws about religion somehow get interpreted as Racism. It's like, you can say Christian this Christian that, but "Jew" or "Muslim" for some reason, to everyone means Ethnicity. I know I'm not Racist because it's a rediculous thing, I even have a mixed race Nephew whom I love to pieces, and get along with his Father really well.

People need to stop treating religion as race. Islam is the biggest case (from my experience) of people doing just that.

 

[Aquitaine]

Just to clarify:

Paul Rusco supports the use of Hijab, if the user consents.

Paul Rusco supports the right to not wear Hijab, if the person consents.

Paul Rusco rejects the right to wear Niqab (face covering garment), regardless of what the user thinks.

Paul Rusco doesn't support the idea of forcing people to wear religious garments against their will.

 

[syberpriend]

Paul I think uve wrong concept of Islam, infact its the only religion on earth that rejects Racism, go do some research in history brother...

 

[Aquitaine]

Paul I think uve wrong concept of Islam, infact its the only religion on earth that rejects Racism, go do some research in history brother...

Syberpriend I think uve wrong concept of what I've been saying, infact I've never stated that Islam is Racist, merely that Islam is not a race, but a religion,
go do some research into what I actually say brother...

 

[syberpriend]

think you should clarify ur statement brother, if u mean people shouldnot bring race in religion, and islam is
the biggest example,. do u mean dat Islam is not for a particular race, or Islam isfor a particular race.?

 

[Aquitaine]

think you should clarify ur statement brother, if u mean people shouldnot bring race in religion, and islam is

the biggest example,. do u mean dat Islam is not for a particular race, or Islam isfor a particular race.?

Pardon me for my lack of clearness. But what I'm saying is Religion and Race often get mixed together (so that people think Religion has some sort of connection to Race). The same can exist for Politics and Religion.

In my experience, Islam is the most likely Religion to be misunderstood as a Race. Basically, I'm saying too many people think Islam is a Race.

I'm not at all saying Islam is/is not for any particular Race, that would be an absurd thing to say. Islam, like all religions has no barriers with Race, you can find Black, White, Asian Arab Muslims etc.

People need to stop confusing Islam with Race.

 

[syberpriend]

Pardon me for my lack of clearness. But what I'm saying is Religion and Race often get mixed together (so that people think Religion has some sort of connection to Race). The same can exist for Politics and Religion.

In my experience, Islam is the most likely Religion to be misunderstood as a Race. Basically, I'm saying too many people think Islam is a Race.

I'm not at all saying Islam is/is not for any particular Race, that would be an absurd thing to say. Islam, like all religions has no barriers with Race, you can find Black, White, Asian Arab Muslims etc.

People need to stop confusing Islam with Race.

Thanks Paul, u clear ur point, and I appreciate whatever u said. Hope people of all the religions will agree on this point, and agree on 1 common point, to solve the problems of world.
But what is the common point for all the religions? I may suggest, all religions say God is 1, so atleast this point we can agree.

 

[Aquitaine]

Thanks Paul, u clear ur point, and I appreciate whatever u said. Hope people of all the religions will agree on this point, and agree on 1 common point, to solve the problems of world.

But what is the common point for all the religions? I may suggest, all religions say God is 1, so atleast this point we can agree.

You're welcome.

In my opinion, all religions should settle their differences, and allow each other to have thier own beliefs.

Unfortunately however, many religions have been manipulated by ruthless Governments to abuse power, and to create enemies.

Many religions have also been hijacked, by extremists, which makes any attempts to bring all religions together for peace very hard.

The problem is that people stereotype and "label" others of different faiths, i.e "all Muslims think this" "all Christians think that" etc. Wheras in reality, every Muslim is different, just like every other Christian, Jew, Pagan, Deist, Atheist, Agnostic etc - right down to person.

 

[Hitchey]

If everyone would just live and let live...
and by that I mean EVERYONE...

That was always my mother's philosopy: live and let live. The problem is -- in practice -- it doesn't work that way. In Toronto last year (or was it earlier this year?), a teen girl was killed in her livingroom by her father and brother because she refused to wear a hijab.

http://www.crin.org/violence/search/closeup.asp?infoID=16127

I guess my point is, some girls and women are wearing the veil and the hijab only because they are being pressured to do so. How will we know if their wearing it is a personal choice or one forced upon them by Saprano-like relations?

 

[syberpriend]

That was always my mother's philosopy: live and let live. The problem is -- in practice -- it doesn't work that way. In Toronto last year (or was it earlier this year?), a teen girl was killed in her livingroom by her father and brother because she refused to wear a hijab.


I guess my point is, some girls and women are wearing the veil and the hijab only because they are being pressured to do so. How will we know if their wearing it is a personal choice or one forced upon them by Saprano-like relations?

Well Hitchey, Hijab and Veil 1st of all is ordered in Bible as well, I dont knw if u r christian or no, but in laws of moses as well,
other thing, if her family was asking her to be in good looks, and that she would be safe from bad hands and pplz , wats wrong in that? if ur younger brother, or sister daugher, wants to drink liquor, or drugs, and u stop, wat u gona do? let thm do?
and also its the family internal matter, wats the problem in this? she was going on bad way, and its sad she died, bbut children should follow the instructions from their parents, moreover, not all muslims are strict to wear Hijab or veil for the women, its the matter of choice, and best for themm so they will be saved from wrong hands.
This is the reason the rate of rape and crimes are less in muslim countries, and nudity pornography, prostitution is less in muslim countries as compared to western countries

 

[Aquitaine]

if ur younger brother, or sister daugher, wants to drink liquor, or drugs, and u stop, wat u gona do? let thm do?

Well, when you put it like that, it does seem to make more sense to just kill your brother - to protect him from drinking or doing drugs :sarcastic.

This is the reason the rate of rape and crimes are less in muslim countries, and nudity pornography, prostitution is less in muslim countries as compared to western countries

With regards to rape. First off, provide me evidence that the criteria, or process, (or "rules") a Woman can successfully "claim" for Rape is the same in the West as it is in the Muslim World. Also, define which countries you mean by "Muslim World" and "The West".

Secondly, once you've provided me evidence that it is just as possible for a Woman in say, Saudi Arabia, to claim she's been raped infron of a court is the same as the process of say, a Woman in the UK, then you're gonna have to provide me some statistics for those claims.

Next you're gonna need to show me statistics about general crime rates, and also remember that crime statistic revolve heavily around only reported crimes.

Next, you're gonna have to do the same with Prostitution. Although you must remember that statistics don't neccessarily mean the truth, nevertheless, if you provide me with the credible stats then I will accept your point.

 

[Yerda]

People need to stop treating religion as race. Islam is the biggest case (from my experience) of people doing just that.

I'm not a great believer in the concept of race. It suits sometimes to group people form a particular background or culture when they are systematically repressed but beyond that kind of frame it loses its coherence, for me, at times. Saying that, if someone generally hates on Muslims I've no problem with the word used to describe that bigotry being the word 'racist'.

I'll look into your examples and see what I find.

Nephew's are cool. Mine's is coolest.

 

[Aquitaine]

I'm not a great believer in the concept of race. It suits sometimes to group people form a particular background or culture when they are systematically repressed but beyond that kind of frame it loses its coherence, for me, at times. Saying that, if someone generally hates on Muslims I've no problem with the word used to describe that bigotry being the word 'racist'.

To me, Race is a significant concept, but it's not in terms of erm..... identification, or grouping. Basically, what I mean is, I understand that people have different Racial makeup, but I don't think it's important enough to descriminate against.

I mean, so what - in most cases, it's just a case of extra Melanin (sp?) and slightly different facial features and bone mass. Why should such things be "grounds" for descrimination or prejudice? It's rediculous.

However, I sincerely object to you using the word "Racist" to apply to someone who doesn't like Muslims. Unless of course, if you feel the same word should be used for someone who hates Christians, Catholics, Jews, Pagans and Pastafarians.

Not only that, but you'll be adding the fuel to the fire of people who will stereotype you as a spineless apologist: "Oh, you see, once again, they call me Racist for criticizing Islam, the same old Left-wing spineless apologists!".

So in a sense, by doing so will harm your reputation too.

The worst thing, for all people, is to stereotype and generalize. I've learn over time that I'm against certain interpretations and practices of Islam, not Muslims. There's a huge difference.

 

[syberpriend]

Well, when you put it like that, it does seem to make more sense to just kill your brother - to protect him from drinking or doing drugs :sarcastic.



With regards to rape. First off, provide me evidence that the criteria, or process, (or "rules") a Woman can successfully "claim" for Rape is the same in the West as it is in the Muslim World. Also, define which countries you mean by "Muslim World" and "The West".
Dear Brother Paul, please find below the statistics and proofs of rape in west, for rapes in muslim countries, u can make google search and come to knw by urself.
Eyewitness News: Most rape cases reported in KZN - Radebe
WikiAnswers - Country most amount of rape cases
Muslim Rape Epidemic Puts Sweden at Top of Euro Rape Statistics…Peace In Europe= Surrender! « Centurean2’s Weblog


Secondly, once you've provided me evidence that it is just as possible for a Woman in say, Saudi Arabia, to claim she's been raped infron of a court is the same as the process of say, a Woman in the UK, then you're gonna have to provide me some statistics for those claims.

the proof is stated above, u make search in google, hardly u can find coz they are very few in number, if uve any stats, kindly show me as well ro.
WHY Rape rate is high in USA


Next you're gonna need to show me statistics about general crime rates, and also remember that crime statistic revolve heavily around only reported crimes.
World Top Ten Countries With Highest Reported Crime Rates
Total crimes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.


Next, you're gonna have to do the same with Prostitution. Although you must remember that statistics don't neccessarily mean the truth, nevertheless, if you provide me with the credible stats then I will accept your point.

100 Countries and Their Prostitution Policies - Prostitution - ProCon.org
Prostitution in Five Countries

Hope brother it will satisfy u, plz dont think I want to win a debate or anything, its just helping clear my point . Thanks for being kind and friendly