A letter to the Atheists

[Peace]

Peace,

The Creator must be of different nature from the things created. If he is created then he is temporal, and if he is temporal then he is mortal thus he will need a creator.
Allah has nothing like Him, He is the everlasting refuge. He is Eternal... He cannot be caused which means that external force causes Him to exist, thus He must be self-sufficient. He depends on no one for the continuance of His existance, thus His existance is everlasting and has no end. He is the First and the Last, All praise is due to Him the Self-subsistent!
Allah doesn't create for the only purpose of bringing things into being, into life, but He does create and He preserves us and takes us out of existance and He is the ultimate cause of whatever happens to us. He is the guardian over everything. To Him belongs the keys of the heavens and the earth.

Peace

 

[meogi]

Belief is obligatory. If you have the most noble traits on this earth and you are not believer in Allah, He will not forgive you. How can He forgive you and you don't belive in Him, He who created you.

God sure seems like a greedy, jealous being. How could he forgive me? By being a compasionate being. I do not require my cats to believe I exist. They comfort me and bring me happiness as I see a god acting about us would. But simply because they do not listen to every command I give them, or if they prefer another person to myself, does not mean I will punish them for the rest of their existance. I show them compassion and love; forgiveness.

Every living creature in the universe has it's own way in praising God.

So... what exactly is my way? I'm a living creature, so I must praise god in some way. Yet I do not believe in him. How is this possible?

I would like to ask you, what is the objective of your existance, why do you exist? and to whom you resort when you are in need of anything? would you tell me?

I in no way can answer this as well as say, linwood or TVOR, but here we go.

The objective of my existance is to learn; gain knowledge from everything I can around me. Also to comfort and be comforted by those whom I love; family, friends, anyone I meet. I exist to exist, to experience. To enjoy the beauty and ungliness and choas and order of everything. I havn't found a 'soul mate' yet, but when that time comes, I'll exist for her and hopefully our eventual children, as well.

I turn to what any human being turns to when I'm distressed (which isn't often, btw). Myself, family, and friends. I turn to them, because I know they are there, and always will be there for me. I turn to myself the most though. I don't feel the need to justify my existance through someone(thing) else... I know that because I exist and continue to exist, it is enough for me.

"But what about death?" - I fear death. For with death, comes an end to knowledge. And that is perhaps the one thing I do not want to happen. I'm so facinated by everything... I want to see how it turns out. Check my post here. But I also accept death as an eventual happening. Death takes precidence over my own selfish desires.

He depends on no one for the continuance of His existance, thus His existance is everlasting and has no end.

So why does he care if someone does not worship him? Why would he punish them?

 

[Pah]

Peace, do you think plagiarism is an ethical or effective method of argument?

Your post appears here Peace, http://anwary-islam.com/namegod/sign-sand.htm without attribution.

In the future, make sure you have a reference or link to the original.

-pah-

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Peace be with you Mr_Spinkles,

Peace be with you as well, friend!

Logically speaking, we couldn't say that human beings are a product of nature, that's against logic, and Human minds couldn't accept that.

I have a human mind, and I can accept that. In fact, I have a hard time accepting that human beings are not a product of nature. Why else would we be made of the same cells, molecules, chemical elements, atoms, protons, and electrons as everything else...if humans weren't products of nature, the natural sciences shouldn't have any bearing on us, yet we can use knowledge of the natural world to produce chemicals made of natural materials that make us humans feel better, heal wounds, think more clearly, and fight infections.

 

[Peace]

[

QUOTE=meogi]God sure seems like a greedy, jealous being. How could he forgive me? By being a compasionate being.

First of all, I hope next time you choose your words while speaking about our Creator. If you insult me I would accept it, but saying bad words about our God, I won't accept that. So please everybody of us must be polite while disscussing, for we are here to talk to each other about our views and beliefs and not to quarrel. Secondly, Allah is so Compassionate to His creatures, for He forgives everybody. He doesn't forgive those who don't believe in Him or those who associate others with Him.

I do not require my cats to believe I exist. They comfort me and bring me happiness as I see a god acting about us would. But simply because they do not listen to every command I give them, or if they prefer another person to myself, does not mean I will punish them for the rest of their existance. I show them compassion and love; forgiveness.

I would like to give you an example, if you create a machine, so you will be the owner and the master of the machine. If this machine doens't want to work according to the rules you gave it... what are you going to do? Of course you will try to fix it, but in vain... Surely you are going to destroy it or throw it away...

Another example, since you have a cat.. if that cat doesn’t want to obey your orders .. if it turns your house into a mess, stealing food, .. you will be patient with it but doesn’t want to be trained, of course will will get rid of it.

The objective of my existance is to learn; gain knowledge from everything I can around me. Also to comfort and be comforted by those whom I love; family, friends, anyone I meet. I exist to exist, to experience. To enjoy the beauty and ungliness and choas and order of everything. I havn't found a 'soul mate' yet, but when that time comes, I'll exist for her and hopefully our eventual children, as well.

If your objective in this life is to learn, then carry on learning, search for the Truth. Don’t limit yourself to a certain catergory of books, but read and read and search, if you do that you will certainly arrive to the Truth.

If you enjoy the beauty of the universe, then ponder over the Great who could create such a universe. Is it logical that the whole universe could be created like that without a creator???

I would like to tell you something life without a spiritual side is like food without salt.

"But what about death?" - I fear death. For with death, comes an end to knowledge. And that is perhaps the one thing I do not want to happen. I'm so facinated by everything... I want to see how it turns out. Check my post here. But I also accept death as an eventual happening. Death takes precidence over my own selfish desires.

I would say I fear death because I am not sure if what I have in store will be enough to grant me Paradise. I fear death because I am afraid I will ashamed in from or our Lord God in the day of resurrection when no parents, nor children nor friends could defend or care for you, for then eveybody will care about him/herself... I will be ashamed because what I will have in store will be nothing compared of His limitless bounties on me.

So why does he care if someone does not worship him? Why would he punish them?

He does care because He is our Master, He is our creator, we are His sevants. since He created us He knows what is good for us and what is bad for us. Since He is our creator, so we must obey Him for He is our master.
Tell me, if you have children, so they are your children.... of course you want them to obey you, to follow your instructions, don't you? If they disobey you and hate you and don't acknowldege you as their father, what are you going to do?

Salam,
Peace

 

[Peace]

Your post appears here Peace, http://anwary-islam.com/namegod/sign-sand.htm without attribution.

In the future, make sure you have a reference or link to the original.

-pah-

Actually, I received that by email, and I don't have the reference about it's source.

Peace

 

[meogi]

First of all, I hope next time you choose your words while speaking about our Creator.

Didn't know I said anything bad about him... I just drew a logical conclusion that he was a greedy and jealous being, based on what you told me. (From the idea that, if you live a good life, and follow the same rules, but don't believe, then he doesn't care about you anyway... he seems greedy in forcing you to love him, and jealous in that he will not forgive).

He forgives everybody. He doesn't forgive those who don't believe in Him or those who associate others with Him.

Ohhhh! So everybody, except those who don't believe. So not everybody.

I would like to give you an example, if you create a machine, so you will be the owner and the master of the machine. If this machine doens't want to work according to the rules you gave it... what are you going to do? Of course you will try to fix it, but in vain... Surely you are going to destroy it or throw it away...

Another example, since you have a cat.. if that cat doesn’t want to obey your orders .. if it turns your house into a mess, stealing food, .. you will be patient with it but doesn’t want to be trained, of course will will get rid of it.

First off, these analogies are not the same. Mainly because the 'object' isn't working how the creator wanted. Yet I uphold the same rules and morals as any believer, but do not believe in the creator. Why does that cause me to be thrown away, destroyed, or gotton rid of? Seems like a double standard. Also, both of thesesuggest that god has tried to 'fix' or 'train' me. Trust me, I've looked for god. Asked him to come to me, help me, love me, help others, at the very least make himself known to me somehow. He hasn't done any of those... so his attempts to 'fix' me are not present.

If your objective in this life is to learn, then carry on learning, search for the Truth. Don’t limit yourself to a certain catergory of books, but read and read and search, if you do that you will certainly arrive to the Truth.

Don't assume I limit myself to a certain category of books. I've read the bible and multiple books supporting the bible... I'm taking a class on buddhism right now... I have not read the Quran yet, but intend to at one point. So far, none of them have pointed to the Truth(tm!). Could be my logical brain... but if there was a creator, he gave it to me, and obviously wan't me to use it...

If you enjoy the beauty of the universe, then ponder over the Great who could create such a universe. Is it logical that the whole universe could be created like that without a creator???

I would like to tell you something life without a spiritual side is like food without salt.

I'm gonna re-word your statement here a bit, to remove conflicting verbs (create, it implies a creator exists): "Is it logical that the whole universe could exist like that without a creator???" - Yes. Of course it is, otherwise I wouldn't see it as a possibility. And logic is mainly based off of premesis. My view does not disclude a god existing and creating the universe, but until one of those is shown as a true premise, then the statement remains invalid.

(And it's no wonder I really don't like salt. )

Tell me, if you have children, so they are your children.... of course you want them to obey you, to follow your instructions, don't you? If they disobey you and hate you and don't acknowldege you as their father, what are you going to do?

Of course, who doesn't want respect from their children. But respect is something I see as being earned, not privalidged. If I'm a bad father, and they hate me because it... it's not their fault, I'm not going to punish them because of my own incompitence. But if I was a good father, and my children still acted that way, yes, I would be very dissapointed and sadened. But I would still love them, for they are my children. What I would not do is curse them to eternal pain and suffering (or any suffering for that matter), just because they believed this. That just isn't loving.

 

[Faust]

I can not believe that I was created by a perfect being and then judged to be imperfect by that being. By being the creation of that being would imply that my imperfection was a mistake made by my creator therefor my creator would not be perfect. Since this would be an offence to a perfect creator I can only surmise that this perfect creator does not exist and I am the result of a naturally occurring prosess.

 

[skills101]

Welcome Peace to the board, I'm sorry I didn't say that in my first post.

Logically speaking, we couldn't say that human beings are a product of nature, that's against logic, and Human minds couldn't accept that.

Hmmm... I happen to believe we're a product of nature. Guess I'm not human then.

The creator of the universe is my & your and everybody's God

From the words of all atheists, no it's not.

Our God hasn't created us with no purpose and objective. He created us to be tested. Actually, we do live in a permanent test, for life is big exam for us.

If Allah did create us to be tested, then I believe He screwed up on me once again... One does not go to school every day to be tested, you go to learn.

Well I have a question, when you are in need of anything or you suffer from something, to whom you resort in your supplication?

When I have a question, I ask a teacher. When I'm suffering, I consult a therapist. I don't try to talk to a god who will never answer me the way I want my answers.

I would like to ask you, what is the objective of your existance, why do you exist? and to whom you resort when you are in need of anything? would you tell me

I'll tell you my purpose in life. It's to enjoy life, it's to be happy. Why don't I just shoot myself right now? Because I love living way too much to just end it.

He sent Prophets to us to guide us and show us the laws of God to follow. Allah wants us to be honests, true, faithfuls, kind, compassionates... He wants us to contribute to the welfare of our nations.

I do not need to believe in a diety to hold those virtues.

First of all, I hope next time you choose your words while speaking about our Creator. If you insult me I would accept it, but saying bad words about our God, I won't accept that. So please everybody of us must be polite while disscussing, for we are here to talk to each other about our views and beliefs and not to quarrel.

My friend, Meogi did give his point of view. It was his view that your god is a jealous being. And remember, this is a debate section, so I believe the point is to debate.

Tell me, if you have children, so they are your children.... of course you want them to obey you, to follow your instructions, don't you? If they disobey you and hate you and don't acknowldege you as their father, what are you going to do?

What would I do??? I'd take him or her with me to a therapist! I wouldn't drop him off at military school and say "have a miserable life!" Boy, only insane people would do such a thing.

-Skills

 

[Faust]

Peace,
I hope I did not seem offensive in my last post, it was not my intention.
I have a limited understanding of Islam but I do have a great deal of respect for it based on my limited knowledge. I consider it to be the most progressive of the Abrahamic religions, as practiced by the prophet.
I have read the Koran (Quran?) once, and three books by Karen Armstrong, A history of God, The Battle for God,(both dealing with the three Abrahamic religions) and A Biography of Muhammad.
I understand that a lot of the practice of Muslims is based on the recorded practices of the profit. Could you suggest a good book on this subject?
I would not do you or myself the injustice of pretending that I am interested in converting but I do have an overwhelming desire to understand other people and the world around me.
Peace,
Faust

 

[Peace]

Peace be with you Faust,

Peace,

I have read the Koran (Quran?)

Both are correct

I understand that a lot of the practice of Muslims is based on the recorded practices of the profit. Could you suggest a good book on this subject?

I will rather guide you to the following website where you could find Most of information needed. www.islam-online.net
You could also find books to refer to concerning the biography of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

I would not do you or myself the injustice of pretending that I am interested in converting but I do have an overwhelming desire to understand other people and the world around me.

I like your interest in reading about others, and to know the truth about Islam.
If you have any question or in need of any information, please don't hesitate to ask

Salam,
Peace

 

[Peace]

Trust me, I've looked for god. Asked him to come to me, help me, love me, help others, at the very least make himself known to me somehow. He hasn't done any of those... so his attempts to 'fix' me are not present.

Why don't you try again? Why not keep asking and be persistent in asking? Allah love those who persist in asking Him and don't give up or lose hope. Trust me He is there so close to you waiting you to turn to Him and ask Him. Our God love His servants and He love most those who turn repentant to Him, believe me He opens His door awide to whoever turn to Him. Why don't you try again? Believe me you won't lose anything on the contrary you will earn a lot. Please try it and ask my and your God for guidance. Forget about your being an atheist and turn to Him again and be persistent in asking, tell Him the Merciful to show you a sign... and you will see, but don't do that once, but do it and redo it for certain period of time and you will see the result. May our dear God guide you to His everlasting light and straight path, amen!!

Please stop for a while talking about atheism but try what I told you, and may God open your heart to the Truth!

[/color]Don't assume I limit myself to a certain category of books. I've read the bible and multiple books supporting the bible... I'm taking a class on buddhism right now... I have not read the Quran yet, but intend to at one point. So far, none of them have pointed to the Truth(tm!). Could be my logical brain... but if there was a creator, he gave it to me, and obviously wan't me to use it...

Though you may deny it but I feel and see that inside you you believe that there is a Creator though you try to hide it or deny it.

So you said you haven't read the Quran yet, so why not read it first and then judge? You won't lose anything by reading it, so please try to have a translated copy of the Holy Quran and read it. The Quran that Allah revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him more than 1400 year ago was revealed in Arabic.

May Allah guide us all to His everlasting light!
Salam,

Peace

 

[meogi]

Why don't you try again?

Who said I stopped? He's had a good 6 years to 'show' me something. Still waiting.

Though you may deny it but I feel and see that inside youyou believe that there is a Creator though you try to hide it or deny it.

I don't deny the possibility of a creator. But that's all it is, a possibility; until he shows himself, or we find him. And why do you feel I hide it? Just because I'm on a search, does not mean I secretely believe... far from it, in fact. The search itself is causing me to be less and less 'open' to a deity. None of them 'fit.'

So you said you haven't read the Quran yet, sowhy not read it first and then judge?

I do intend to... the Quran is not exactly an easily found text (in english) here in Japan. And I havn't judged anything you havn't told me, so my judging is not uninformed.

The Quranthat Allah revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him more than 1400 yearago was revealed in Arabic.

Islam is from the 7th century? I thought it was older. Learn something every day, I guess.

And are you going to address the idea that he's not an all-caring deity? If not for the sole reason he'd cast away one of his own, just because they don't believe in him?

 

[chuck010342]

I don't understand your refutation agianst the watchmaker argument (the un moved mover argument) could you simply it meogi or perhaps its 8:34 am I havn't been to be yet and I'm really tired. But I would like a simple response to the un moved mover argument by an athiest

 

[painted wolf]

maybe because the univerce is not really anything like a watch?

just a thought.

wa:do

 

[meogi]

But I would like a simple response to the un moved mover argument by an athiest

(I can understand why my reply is a bit confusing as well... but it was answering a different question, and I just now realized it's got a few 180's, half twists, and excessive manuvers, that would require a good knowledge of logic to understand what I was trying to say...)

The really, really simple responce:
Argument is going like this:

1)All watches have a creator(watchmaker).
2)The universe is like a watch.
---
3)Universe has a creator.

correct?

There is no way to rationally deny that, if the premises are taken as true. Of course, if the premises are false or highly controversial, then it's not helping your argument. Premises that are as controversial as the conclusion, do no good. In this case, it's #2. So, your argument is logically valid. But it is not logically sound. (soundness comes from a valid argument, that's premises are true).

I guess painted wolf said it even simpler still. This gives a little explanation though.

 

[Ceridwen018]

If I had a dime for everytime someone brought up the ol' watchmaker angle, and a quarter for every time it was refuted, I would buy a Lotus Elise.

 

[chuck010342]

(I can understand why my reply is a bit confusing as well... but it was answering a different question, and I just now realized it's got a few 180's, half twists, and excessive manuvers, that would require a good knowledge of logic to understand what I was trying to say...)

The really, really simple responce:
Argument is going like this:

1)All watches have a creator(watchmaker).
2)The universe is like a watch.
---
3)Universe has a creator.

correct?

There is no way to rationally deny that, if the premises are taken as true. Of course, if the premises are false or highly controversial, then it's not helping your argument. Premises that are as controversial as the conclusion, do no good. In this case, it's #2. So, your argument is logically valid. But it is not logically sound. (soundness comes from a valid argument, that's premises are true).

ahh I see the argument is not locigally sound because there is an assumtion that the un moved mover exsists. in this case that the watch is assumed that it was made by a watchmaker right?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Chuck,

Please, please, please take a course in logic. It will make these things so much easier for all of us.

TVOR

 

[cardero]

Peace,

In my REALationship with GOD it was ALL(ways) quite evident to me that it was not imperative to have other entities believe in/praise/worship/recognize GOD. I think GOD UNDERSTANDS fully that there are many things that entities want to experience and I do not believe it is GOD’s title/duty/obligation to interfere with anyONE’s existence whether he/she created us or not. Now, I am not sure exactly how you have come to your relationship with GOD or how you are encouraging it but I would be wary of any entity that requires/expects/demands allegiance/servitude/obedience. Living in fear of GOD’s acceptance/judgment/expectations goes directly against GOD’s LOVE. An existence like this is not an existence that I would prefer to live out.