A choice between yourself and God.

[bobhikes]

What do you mean by imposing?

This is the empathy stance. But it's not a reason to be an atheist, I was a Deist/New Age type person, and convinced myself there is no hell out of empathy.

This is what I mean by imposing, you have paraphrased my beliefs and then stated that they were not reasonable.

 

[wellwisher]

Do you genuinely don't understand how a person cannot believe god exists?

There's a lot of justification here but no facts.

Knowing God requires an ability to think in 3-D, with science limited to 2-D thought. I agree that you cannot investigate a 3-D phenomena, with only 2-D tools at your disposal; cause and effect.

Let me given an example, nature is spatially integrated or 3-D. It allows a wide range of life forms and matter; water, earth; minerals, and air; oxygen, to connect and integrate in a balanced way. Have humans ever achieved this balance with science and law? If you judged by only science and law; both 2-D (cause and effect and/or good and evil) we always fall short. One may conclude what we see in nature is not possible, until we look at nature. Humans are not yet up to the task with only 2-D thought.

God is similar, but is actually more like 4-D thought; integrated in space and time like evolving life and ecosystems. This is too complicated for 2-D thought, even with dice and cards math; 2+-D, trying to approximate the extra dimension. Statistics does give a third dimension, but since odds are never 100%, this never adds a full z-axis. We get relief drawings but not a full 3-D sculpture. There is hidden 3-D.

The tool you need is not the eyes and external senses, but the human brain and internal sensory systems; feelings and sensations. The brain can process in 3-D; natural instincts of nature. If you migrate the ego to that area of the brain, so you make use of that side of the brain, to give you glimpses into spatial and sometimes even spatial with a time element; sense God. The brain is the most advance tool in science with the needed data processing capacity already there to use, if you have faith.

In culture, the dumb kids often beat up the science nerds, since they cannot understand their strange smarts. The same is true of science and atheism beating upon on the spatial religion nerds, since they do not understand that they have their own data that they processed, inside. But on the other hand, science allow all ideas, a way to be expressed in cultural reality; can reach the masses via the fine senses. It good to know both and become a Renaissance man.

For example, using water, which is the one variable that touches everything else in life, is a 3-D life model. This is too complicated to see in 2-D even if it makes sense. The life science are bot used to a full z-axis to infinity. It is hard to dumb it down since it is as simple as you need for a 3-D model. Water can finger print anything in the cell and therefore we can model just fingerprints in one variable and do the same as having to use the endless organic diversity model of 2-D and a fudge factor. The use of the 3-D aspects of the brain, learned by faith and religion, can also be applied to science.

 

[Link]

Where does condemning get you? How does it really serve you? Do you really think it generates goodness or does it teach something else?

Is life really meaningless? Life is the education of God's children. Do you really think being educated is meaningless? You must think so since your condemning necessity will never fit. When your education is near completion, your view will be much different.

Do you really think one never learns that lying is not a viable choice to make regardless of how many times one lies?

Each will decide for themselves what the best choices really are from learning when their choices and actions return. Your attempt to control the actions of another will bring insight when you are the one others are trying to control. Being on the receiving end of judging, condemning, controlling and all those petty things mankind holds do dear will teach you these things are not the best choices.

Which is better: 1. Seeing and nurturing the goodness in others, teaching Unconditional Love and Kindness, Guiding others to a Higher Level above the petty things mankind holds so dear. OR 2, Condemning, Controlling, Threatening, demanding pay back, being angry, hateful and upset thereby teaching others to value the petty things mankind holds so dear?

Which will return the best results? Don't you think God has already figured all this out? Perhaps your test is thinking rather than following blindly valuing the petty things mankind is teaching you.

Perhaps when one stops hating and condemning evil, one can concentrate on fixing evil. The problem will not go away until it is fixed. Frying the kiddies isn't the same as fixing them. Concentrate on fixing rather than hating, threatening, and condemning. See how your results will change. It's never too late to pass the Real test in front of you. It's not about others. It's what you choose to do that counts!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!!

If I help a person or sacrifice myself for greater good of humanity, both of these don't need to benefit me, and the reward in morality and honor is with God which is unseen.

Likewise, vengeance has a merit, it does not need to benefit me, for it to be good. However, there is benefit in that it helps you overcome evil and distance yourself from it, if you distance yourself from evil people acknowledging God's wrath is upon them.

The best results - well the way I see it. If God wanted those results, no need of life of this world, we would all be created in heaven. He can make sure no one deviates, and could've even made sure Iblis didn't deviate. There's no need of being tried by good and evil, in this world.

However, given we are tried by good and evil, I can't see God treating everyone all the same. The evil and good alike. That is injustice.

Also, the next world is where seeds of deeds in this world come to fruit. If we sought God and his chosen light, we would grow in that and at a fast pace depending on our deeds. However, if we deviated, envied his chosen, and sought other than God, then vengeance of God and his wrath will be the consequence forever.

God made life a pressure cooker so we get things right the first time. We don't get it right, and as explained, we won't get it right coming back ever, but increase in lying nature if we break truthful promise on a clean slate the first time.

 

[Link]

This is what I mean by imposing, you have paraphrased my beliefs and then stated that they were not reasonable.

Okay so by imposing, you just mean I don't accept your view and believe in mine?

 

[Bthoth]

Faith in God requires we glorify God which would make us belittle who and what we are to the degree we have failed our duty to God. Recognizing God means you see his favor overflowing and that any good you attained, you see it as a favor from him more then a praise belonging to you. While any evil you attain, you see it belong to you because you did despite his help and mercy and overflowing favor.

The Atheist on the other hand, he tends to not want to be at fault for not seeing God. Consequently, it must be God's fault and not evil on part of the Atheist. More over God being all powerful should make the world according to the desires of the Atheist. If he has not, and will not, he is evil.

If God exists, the Atheist tells himself, then heaven would be the destiny they will enter, no matter. This while people who have faith in God are ever afraid of hell and losing their faith in God from sins.

In short, the Atheist has chosen to glorify themselves, while the believers seek God's forgiveness and belittle themselves in themselves and glorify God's Majesty and Glory in themselves.

I crack up on the method that you just used: either follow the religion or the person is glorifying themselves.

It's just wrong to use that.

 

[Link]

I crack up on the method that you just used: either follow the religion or the person is glorifying themselves.

It's just wrong to use that.

Moral guidance from God is the moral guidance. To have sought to impose without knowledge morality upon God and his religion rather then seek his guidance, is a result of arrogance.

 

[bobhikes]

Okay so by imposing, you just mean I don't accept your view and believe in mine?

Not accepting is fine but refuting is something more. If we were debating it would be expected but this is a discussion thread.

Your words "While any evil you attain, you see it belong to you because you did despite his help and mercy and overflowing favor." and "I sought proofs from God and found them. I don't decide what his judgment is, I just submit to it."

But yet you are judging my beliefs and those of atheists to your standards not Gods. I may be wrong feel free to correct me but the God you believe in created You, me and all the atheists in existence. Yet you are passing judgement on others' beliefs. Perhaps I am wrong, and your God allows you to pass judgement on others' beliefs.

 

[Link]

Not accepting is fine but refuting is something more. If we were debating it would be expected but this is a discussion thread.

Your words "While any evil you attain, you see it belong to you because you did despite his help and mercy and overflowing favor." and "I sought proofs from God and found them. I don't decide what his judgment is, I just submit to it."

But yet you are judging my beliefs and those of atheists to your standards not Gods. I may be wrong feel free to correct me but the God you believe in created You, me and all the atheists in existence. Yet you are passing judgement on others' beliefs. Perhaps I am wrong, and your God allows you to pass judgement on others' beliefs.

I didn't make up the judgments, but found them in Quran. Originally, I didn't understand why such judgments were the case, but overtime, I do understand.

 

[LuisDantas]

Moral guidance from God is the moral guidance. To have sought to impose without knowledge morality upon God and his religion rather then seek his guidance, is a result of arrogance.

Sorry, that is just not at all correct.

Gods relate to morality in that they are personifications of specific conceptions of certain values.

Attempting to make an Abrahamic-styled god responsible for the transmission of morality... just does not work. And it usually causes quite a lot of destructive confusion, to say nothing of hypocrisy.

 

[Link]

Sorry, that is just not at all correct.

Gods relate to morality in that they are personifications of specific conceptions of certain values.

Attempting to make an Abrahamic-styled god responsible for the transmission of morality... just does not work. And it usually causes quite a lot of destructive confusion, to say nothing of hypocrisy.

I understand from your paradigm and viewpoint this is the case. However, from the viewpoint that there are chosen ones from God, it comes to envying their high station and arrogantly denying their holy position out of pride and envy.

 

[LuisDantas]

I understand from your paradigm and viewpoint this is the case. However, from the viewpoint that there are chosen ones from God, it comes to envying their high station and arrogantly denying their holy position out of pride and envy.

Well, since the former is based on the reality of facts and the later is, frankly, just arrogant wishful thinking, I reserve the right to disregard the objection with no second thought.

 

[Link]

Well, since the former is based on the reality of facts and the later is, frankly, just arrogant wishful thinking, I reserve the right to disregard the objection with no second thought.

Sure.. if it's true what you say.

 

[Bird123]

If I help a person or sacrifice myself for greater good of humanity, both of these don't need to benefit me, and the reward in morality and honor is with God which is unseen.

Likewise, vengeance has a merit, it does not need to benefit me, for it to be good. However, there is benefit in that it helps you overcome evil and distance yourself from it, if you distance yourself from evil people acknowledging God's wrath is upon them.

The best results - well the way I see it. If God wanted those results, no need of life of this world, we would all be created in heaven. He can make sure no one deviates, and could've even made sure Iblis didn't deviate. There's no need of being tried by good and evil, in this world.

However, given we are tried by good and evil, I can't see God treating everyone all the same. The evil and good alike. That is injustice.

Also, the next world is where seeds of deeds in this world come to fruit. If we sought God and his chosen light, we would grow in that and at a fast pace depending on our deeds. However, if we deviated, envied his chosen, and sought other than God, then vengeance of God and his wrath will be the consequence forever.

God made life a pressure cooker so we get things right the first time. We don't get it right, and as explained, we won't get it right coming back ever, but increase in lying nature if we break truthful promise on a clean slate the first time.

How can God be at a Higher Level to value vengeance and wrath? It's not possible. This is mankind's thinking because mankind values these things. Mankind has not yet learned these petty things will not result in the Best choices.

How does vengeance have merit? It generates hate and anger. It points others to return hate and anger. Is God really about hate and anger? Isn't the better course work at fixing the problems than hating and revenging others?

Should one really be distancing themselves from evil. Do not shelter your children from evil. Teach them how to deal with evil. This does not include anger, hating, vengeance or attempting to inflict pain in order to alter or control the actions of another.

Each will choose what they want to learn through their free choices. Everyone is the same, however everyone isn't choosing the same things. Are you choosing to learn through your actions and choices about vengeance and wrath along with the hurt and hate it generates? Aren't their better choices? Must you hate over Help???

What you do not understand is that God is not through creating you yet. This is the learning stage. Perfection for a perfect free thinking being must include a Learning what the best answers stage. This is why this physical world exists.

Pressure cooker?? Aren't you choosing to see a Pressure cooker? Should watching others learn their lessons create stress on you? If you have already learned the lessons they are learning, it is just a reminder of what the Best answers really are.

Life not what you wanted? Make different choices. Good, Loving, and kind choices return as well, in time. This is something to learn as well.

If you are giving the petty things mankind holds so dear such as: Judging, Blaming, Condemning, Punishing, Anger, Wrath, Payback, Revenge, Hate, Ruling, Controlling, Coercing, Intimidating, Manipulating, We against they and etc. These things will return to you so that you will understand all sides of these things. It is the only way to understand these things will never generate the best choices.

What are you seeking? What do you want to Learn? The pressure cooker isn't a creation of God. Deep down you must know how it is generated.

There is no time limit on learning. There is no demand to get things right the first time. In fact God counts on the mistakes we make. It teaches us what not to do.

It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts.Don't you see? It has always been in your hands!!

Our actions and choices show God and the world what we know and what we need to learn. In God's system, there has never been a need to Hate and Revenge. How can one ever hope to create a Heavenly state for oneself and others valuing these petty things?

You expect God to do it for you, however you will only really be wise when you can do things for yourself. I am Pointing for you!! On the other hand, it's your choices that really counts.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

How can God be at a Higher Level to value vengeance and wrath? It's not possible. This is mankind's thinking because mankind values these things.

Why does mankind think like this? You repeat it's petty and not a virtue. Yet you assert and never prove it.

 

[Link]

What you do not understand is that God is not through creating you yet. This is the learning stage. Perfection for a perfect free thinking being must include a Learning what the best answers stage. This is why this physical world exists.

Is there a book from God teaching this or you just to get make it up and people have to accept your theory?

 

[LuisDantas]

Sure.. if it's true what you say.

It is. Sorry.

 

[Bthoth]

Moral guidance from God is the moral guidance.

Okey dokey......

The commandments are from the book of ma'at. That so called prophet, Moses, was born and raised in the house of pharoah, per torah, per him, per se.

The bible is man made.

The quran is man made.

Keeping the rules, morals of personal responsibility is a choice.

To have sought to impose without knowledge morality upon God and his religion rather then seek his guidance, is a result of arrogance.

The guidance/wisdom of torah/bible/quran (three horns-religions of abraham) is great when used as guidance for the wisdom.


Yet still each person must choose to maintain the wisdom because no god has ever forced anyone ever to be good without their own choice.

I love the works. All three and in many ways but I am not brainwashed to believe that a god wrote even a single word as I trust that people are capable to care enough to convey good works for us all because the knowledge has merit.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Technically you are right but in reality I am right. Faith in the true God does require we Worship and be in awe of it's glory and majesty.

You are failing to distinguish that your faith in god is merely a belief and not a fact.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I can't glorify myself when I see all good I've attained is from God and his help and have failed show the proper gratitude for it. And I can't glorify myself when I see all evil stems from me despite God's help and overflowing favor on me in form of light and power from him.

If god exists then all of good and evil, everything in existence, stems from him.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Is there a book from God teaching this or you just to get make it up and people have to accept your theory?

This is a weird question, considering that your holy book was written by men and therefore is the opinion of men. Even muhammed was given his "revelation" by an angel, not directly from god, so nobody knows that the message is even linked to god at all. It could just be the opinion of a being that claimed to be an angel of god.