70% of Doctors Are Wrong, Of Course!

[lewisnotmiller]

I always find it comforting when atheists show their hand--by disagreeing with 70% of medical professionals. After all, ideology before fact and testimony, yes?

Errr...okay then.
That's an interesting way to view the world.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible. Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge. Yet today even the most egotistical person will admit that 'we' (humans) don't know .000000000001% of the how, why, what, where, who, when of existence, to borrow from Kipling. Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.

Intellectually and experientially: Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. One day during his teens he met some rather heavy-handed Christians: "You're going to Hell unless...." He dispatched them with hard counter punches. By that time, he thought to himself, these Christians aren't even serious about God. If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.

Years later he would be an extremely prolific author. His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words, has been called 'magisterial,' 'epic,' 'the very best study of Acts....' He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles. Many of the cases have full medical documentation. He features over 300 cases of blindness alone.
One of the most famous cases involved a teenage girl with a most severe case of multiple sclerosis. Over the years until she was a young adult, her physically condition deteriorated. At the Mayo Clinic, one physician said she was among the worse cases of MS he had ever seen (the names of the MDs and other witnesses are included). When she was given six months to live (she was sent home to her family) her body was twisted, her feet pointed downwards, similarly with her hands. Her intestines were shutting down, she lost all control of her basic bodily functions. She was nearly blind. Yet through all this she was a Christian.

At this point she had lost all hope, that God didn't hear her prayers. Her story was featured in a radio program. Hundreds of listeners began praying for Barbara. Her cousin was reading some of the letters from these listeners. And then Barbara gestured to her cousin that she wanted to say something. She said that she knew God was going to heal her, and to call her parents. Her mother ran in to find Barbara had ripped out all the tubes and was standing on legs that had been atrophied. Her mom bent down and felt her legs, "You have muscles!"
Her dad began to waltz with her around the room. At a prayer service at her church that night, the minister asked if anyone had anything they would like to add. Barbara began walking down the center aisle, and you can imagine the shock and incredulity. Everyone began singing, 'Amazing Grace.' This, of course, is the famous hymn written by a life-long atheist, who in his own words was the most wretched of men, until he was saved by God.

Another scientific study (not as hard to read as 600,000 pages) is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing.
Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings. For example, 'Ruth' was an elderly woman with vision tested 300/20 and so deaf that a jet engine couldn't faze her -- plainly she couldn't hear a normal conversation. A few minutes later her vision was 80/20 and she could carry on a normal conversation. Dr. Brown explains the misconception that with so few test subjects the study wouldn't be an 'acid test.' However, with the fewer number, the results are actually more astounding. Her husband also has founded the Global Medical Group to scientifically test the effects of prayer on illness.

A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.

If one is of an intellectual frame of mine, I'd suggest Dr. Craig Evans' 'Fabricating Jesus - How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.' Evans' 'How God Became Jesus' also is an excellent refutation of Dr. Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.' Drs. Gary Habermas (resurrection expert), Edwin Yamauchi (a 'scholar's scholar'), Richard Bauckham (one of the tops in 'early high Christology club' an informal 'club' with a focus that Jesus was worshipped as God from very early after the resurrection) are one of several scholars I would recommend that use the strictest methodology. Dr. John A. Bloom, physicist, has written a fine study of Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, which skeptics claim is false, along with the rest of the Old Testament prophecies. Bloom also has written a top 80 page paper on the existence of God.

On a concluding note, the message of God as revealed in the Bible is of love. In 1 Corinthians 12 + the apostle Paul encourages believers to seek the highest Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts (sorry, Mr. Hume). While the list is varied, it may not be complete. For example, in times of trouble, sometimes a Christian being physically attacked has recounted the attacker being immobilized by an unseen force, such as the case of a Soviet-era Christian hunter who regularly beat up Christians. After experiencing these things, he became a Christian.

The highest Gift, though, is love. "Faith, Hope, Love ... the highest is Love." And from this we can understand how normal humans can be capable of incredible love. The 'fruits' of the spirit are developed by the normal walk through life of the Christian who learns about God, and tries to apply the lessons. But with the Gifts, God helps one supernaturally.

Paul also writes that 'God is love.' Despite all the skeptics, you can prove to yourself if this is true or not. And that is a brief answer on how an atheist can come to belief in God.

1) US Doctors...
2) Can you link to the study, please.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I guess you do not believe heart and kidney transplants save lives.
I guess you do not believe stents save lives.
I guess you do not believe back surgery greatly improves lives.
I guess you do not believe hip replacement and knee surgery greatly improve lives.

Let's be clear, doctors do not heal IN THE SPECIFIC SENSE, they simply "do no harm". The body heals, and doctors merely assists in allowing the healing to take place. Doctors repair, replace, reconstruct, remove, relieve, discover and prescribe, or retargets the body's own immune responses.

I certainly didn't mean that doctors do not assist in saving and improving lives. If you cut yourself, you would put pressure, antiseptic, and maybe a Band-Aid on the wound. In other words, you assist in the body's healing process. But it is the body that does the healing and repairing? Now take someone who suffers from Haemophilia. When they bleed, their body is unable to form a scar over the wound. Thus bleeding potentially could continue longer. But by administering clotting factors VIII & IX, it will assist in the body's natural clotting process to form a scar over the wound. Doctors repair, replace, remove, or reconstructs faulty biological components of the body, because their non-intervention WILL cause more harm to the body.

I certainly agree that medical intervention can save lives(or destroy lives), and have the potential to improve longevity and the quality of life. I also believe in the law of natural compensation is an inherited property in all biological systems. The more you change one part of the whole, the more the other parts of the whole need to compensate. This can be clearly seen in hip/joint replacement surgery(over-calcification, and less mobility), coronary and transplant surgery(enlarged heart, anti-rejection drugs for life), spinal surgery(immobility of upper and lower vertebra), antibiotic treatment(use of different antibiotic), loss of a sensory organ(other organs compensate), Loss of a limb(phantom pain), brain trauma(brain plasticity), or burn victims(overgrowth of skin). What you call save and improves lives, I call "prolonged less suffering, temporarily".

What I am saying is, that humans are not simple machines. Just replace a part and "Bob's your uncle". Unfortunately, in biological systems, it is also the effects that can generate the causes. It is best not to interfere with the body's natural ability to heal itself. Or, to interfere as little as possible. I sometimes feel that prolonging life is NOT beneficial towards the improvement of society, or is in the best interest and wellbeing of our species.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

70% of doctors ascribe miracles in HEALING, you know--doctors' field of EXPERTISE.

Experts in healing, not miracles.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Do you understand how self-defeating it is in the same post of yours to tell me:

1) Anecdotal evidence doesn't support scientific claims
2) Your anecdotes regarding your experience as a nurse, and your father's anecdotal experiences

What were the medical miracles caused by, since they weren't medical "miracles" in your opinion? Were they "Unexplained Frequent Occurrences" and thus, UFO's?

They're not "frequent occurrences" otherwise they wouldn't be noteworthy. I am not offering anecdotes as evidence of scientific claims, I am offering them to provide context. Not knowing the cause of a thing does not inherently mean it's explainable.

Anything else?

 

[BilliardsBall]

When has that happened?

Again, the answer is here: Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Examples?

Again, here is the reference: Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Might believe it if it ever happened.

Again, Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Still awaiting evidence.

Why? If I demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that 70% of doctors believe in miracles, how would that affect your life as a skeptic/cynic/detractor on these forums?

 

[BilliardsBall]

1) US Doctors...
2) Can you link to the study, please.

1) The U.S. does more medical research than most other nations put together.

2) Why? Will you no longer be a skeptic regarding miracles if I do?

 

[ecco]

Let's be clear, doctors do not heal in the specific sense, they simply "do no harm".

What you call save and improves lives, I call "prolonged less suffering, temporarily".

And that's a good thing. If you don't believe that's a good thing then I'd like to know why.

It is best not to interfere with the body's natural ability to heal itself. Or, to interfere as little as possible.

That's pretty much what humanity did for most of its existence. Do you remember the polio epidemic? Are you aware of the black plague? Do you know how many soldiers died from their wounds during the Civil War as compared to Iraq?

I sometimes feel that prolonging life is NOT beneficial towards the improvement of society, or is in the best interest and wellbeing of our species.

That's a different topic altogether.

 

[ecco]

Might believe it if it ever happened.

Again, Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?

How lazy of you. Can you not formulate you own argument? Can you not respond to a basic question in your own words? If the best you can do is let someone else answer for you, then it's pretty clear you don't have an answer.


Nevertheless, I went to your AIG site. Here is part of how they address the question:

Formally restating your argument:

1. An omnipotent God would heal amputees.
2. Amputees are not healed.
3. Therefore, an omnipotent God does not exist.

So, right off the top they present a strawman.

• You can't answer the question
• Your surrogate creates a strawman

I guess that's another reason people don't take fundies seriously.




ETA: Here is their laughable conclusion:

But when you accept God and His Word, you can understand how Genesis explains the death and suffering as a result of the failure of humanity, not God. Amputations are one element of the consequences of death, degradation, and suffering that humanity and all creation bear because of our rebellion and sin
​

Plainly reworded: God does heal amputees because of Adam

 

[ecco]

70% of doctors ascribe miracles in HEALING

Still awaiting evidence.

Why? If I demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that 70% of doctors believe in miracles, how would that affect your life as a skeptic/cynic/detractor on these forums?

Why? To show us that maybe, just once, you can show that your nonsensical comments have any validity.

But you won't because you can't. How embarrassing.

 

[Milton Platt]

Again, the answer is here: Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?

Nothing in this link answers the question of why god does not heal amputees while he is credited by believers for healing in huge numbers of ambiguous and uncomfirmed circumstances. It deflects to broader questions.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

1) The U.S. does more medical research than most other nations put together.

Which speaks to your scientists, not your doctors. Care to offer up figures on belief amongst the science fraternity?

My point was that your rate of belief is higher amongst the general population. What would it suggest if Australian doctors had less instances of seeing miracles? Or Swedish doctors?

2) Why? Will you no longer be a skeptic regarding miracles if I do?

No. But offering up arguments from a study and not linking to it is disingenuous.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Again, the answer is here: Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?

So God doesn't heal amputees.
Why did you say he does then?

 

[ecco]

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nothing in this link answers the question of why god does not heal amputees while he is credited by believers for healing in huge numbers of ambiguous and uncomfirmed circumstances. It deflects to broader questions.

It is obviously their fault that they had an amputation. For example if faith can move a mountain lifting a moving freight train over a limb should be child's play.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

2) Pray for free to God (say a few words into space to contact an unproved entity) who offers eternal life

Yes, the offer of eternal life. Still, it seems to me a lot easier, if some God wants to offer eternal life, to offer it without the need for dying first, and then getting resurrected. And even more curiously, resurrected in such fashion that nobody who saw you die will ever see you live again.

I know when I'm being conned...

 

[Truly Enlightened]

And that's a good thing. If you don't believe that's a good thing then I'd like to know why.



That's pretty much what humanity did for most of its existence. Do you remember the polio epidemic? Are you aware of the black plague? Do you know how many soldiers died from their wounds during the Civil War as compared to Iraq?






That's a different topic altogether.

Do the other 8.7 Million other species of animals visit their doctors to become healed? Why is it harder for us to heal as we age? Do you know WHY some people naturally recover from, or do not show symptoms from either the polio or the Bubonic Plague virus? Or, WHY many wounds from some soldiers never went septic? Why do you think that is? Do you think that after billions of years of Evolution, living things do not have the tools and mechanisms to protect, repair and heal itself. Or, do you think that our instincts, neural reflex arcs, immune system, and genetic predispositions, were all medically installed and are medically dependant? The body is a composite biological system that has evolved to survive. Doctors can only augment, repair, assist, stimulate, or detect, but they do not HEAL in any specific sense of the word. Doctors, at best prolong less suffering temporarily, to allow the body the time it needs to heal itself.

The body's ability to heal itself is not a moral question. It is a physical fact. Whether doctors should interfere in this process is the moral question. Other than vaccinations, trauma, and emergency treatments, I personally think that doctors should be as non-invasive as possible. I think Mother Teresa had the right idea regarding her treatment for the terminally ill, and the not so terminally ill in Calcutta. Who would question the morality of a Saint?​