70% of Doctors Are Wrong, Of Course!

[ecco]

Assumption 1: God has never healed an amputee. Who is to say that in the history of the world, God has never caused a limb to regenerate? To say, "I have no empirical evidence that limbs can regenerate; therefore, no amputee has ever been healed in the history of the world" is akin to saying "I have no empirical evidence that rabbits live in my yard; therefore, no rabbit has ever lived on this ground in the history of the world."

All healing is done by Psychic Snowflakes.

To say, "I have no empirical evidence that Psychic Snowflakes heal; therefore, Psychic Snowflakes have never healed anyone in the history of the world" is akin to saying "I have no empirical evidence that rabbits live in my yard; therefore, no rabbit has ever lived on this ground in the history of the world."


It sounds kinda dumb, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Milton Platt]

God does not hate amputees. God is Love. How do you know there are no amputees being healed anywhere in the world today? You don't. While Jesus walked on earth He and the apostles went around and healed the lame and those with leprosy who may have and often were missing limps or fingers or toes, making them whole again. The point of miracles, though, was foremost to point to who Jesus Christ was as God and Savior. Today the areas where the most physical healing takes place are in areas where the gospel is reaching those who have never heard the good news of Christ. They are signposts. Even so, those who are healed, still eventually die like everyone else. God's plan is about eternal life, not healing everyone on earth now. God uses people's lives in a variety of ways and in His wisdom He chooses when and how to heal or not. But all will have perfect health who receive eternal life, including amputees.


Why won't God heal amputees?

I know that there are no verified cases of such an event.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Could be. That means could NOT be, too.

Hey, I had a stroke back when I was 33, I literally died, and after I revived my prognosis was "prolonged vegetative state for life". Here I am 7 years later, working full time, walking, talking, fully functional member of society. My recovery has been described by doctors as "miraculous". That doesn't mean it was a miracle, per se. Or that the explanation for such things will forever be unknown to science, just that it's unknown to today's science. Beware of invoking the God of the Gaps. The gaps have a tendency to shrink, and make such arguments look foolish.

I didn't ask you if your healing was miraculous, I stated the fact that 7 of 10 doctors ascribe healings to miracles.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You know why appeals to authority are a bad idea?

View attachment 24670

View attachment 24671

I understand, you feel doctors are stupid people in general. I call baloney.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Oh good grief. Did you even read beyond the words medical anthropology? I'm not sure you did, because I pointed out a goal of medical anthropologists is to help bridge the gap between contemporary medicine and traditional rituals. And the point was also to show that people of any religion can make these claims of healing. But they aren't any better than placebo because prayer won't address bacteria, won't inoculate against viruses, won't remove tumors, and won't prevent a wound from becoming septic.
And what of all those Christians who have died, from easily treatable diseases, because prayer failed them?

1) I read your post in full before my prior response. You are saying that doctors could find an alternative answer for unexplained phenomena, and lack an understanding of medical anthropology and their own biases.

2) Then you post a complaint: "Why doesn't God heal X and Y then, because I think He should."

ASK HIM is my suggestion.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No he didn't. His views were essentially skeptical. If you disagree, please quote the part of his writings you rely on.
Again, no he didn't. Skepticism says the opposite. Again, feel free to quote him to show me I'm wrong.
Really? What circular reasoning was alleged against him?
That's rather sweet. What real thing did he intend to denote when he said "God" and what has a supernatural experience got to do with real things? Or didn't he know about such questions?
That's OCD bigtime! You've read them?
You say this was a scientific study, so I assume we have a documented description of the condition of the eye before and after, and a specific description of the physical change that had occurred?

Or is it all just group psychology?

And do we have reports on the state of these blind people one, two, three months, one, two, three years later?

If not, then if the stories are evidence of anything, it might be in the realm of psychology or even placebo studies, but nothing scientific has been shown at all.

You mean that amputees grew new limbs, I take it? I'd like to see those reports and the before and after photos. But even then I'd point out that the fact we lack a good explanation of phenomenon X never implies a supernatural cause of phenomenon X ─ if for no other reason than that the concept of the supernatural is incoherent.

I always find it comforting when atheists show their hand--by disagreeing with 70% of medical professionals. After all, ideology before fact and testimony, yes?

 

[Milton Platt]

I didn't ask you if your healing was miraculous, I stated the fact that 7 of 10 doctors ascribe healings to miracles.

The problem is what definition of the word miracle is being used by the doctor. I would guess they simply mean it was either rare or simply has no explanation. In either case, nothing supernatural or god like is invoked.

What is your specific definition of a miracle, anyway?

 

[ecco]

I stated the fact that 7 of 10 doctors ascribe healings to miracles.

Source? Evidence?

 

[blü 2]

I always find it comforting when atheists show their hand--by disagreeing with 70% of medical professionals. After all, ideology before fact and testimony, yes?

That's a nice clear answer.

Contrary to what you said in your earlier post, the cases you mention were NOT done in a scientific manner. No medical before and after descriptions, no follow-ups, just another tent show,

Is it that you don't know what scientific method is, or were you being ... what's a delicate word? ... naughty?

You also forgot to tell me what circular reasoning was alleged against Hume. (You can read up on his views on atheism eg >here<.)

And what Dr Craig Keener intended to denote when he said "God".

And why God can't heal amputees.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I understand, you feel doctors are stupid people in general. I call baloney.

Not remotely what I said. Doctors are fine. But they're doctors. If you want to know about a medical condition, consult a doctor, that's what they're for. But they're not experts on religion. Asking a doctor to explain religion is like asking a plumber for advice about your computer. That's not in any way a criticism of plumbers, it's acknowledgement of the basic fact that being knowledgeable in one field doesn't make you an expert in another.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I always find it comforting when atheists show their hand--by disagreeing with 70% of medical professionals. After all, ideology before fact and testimony, yes?

No one's "disagreeing" with the alleged "70% of medical professionals". What people are pointing out is that medical professionals are not any more credible in this discussion than anyone else.

My father is a specialist physician. He's also deeply religious, yet I have never once heard him make a claim supporting his religious beliefs based on his medical experience, because he understands how science works, and how anecdotal experience doesn't support scientific claims. I'm a qualified nurse, and the survivor of two near death experiences, I have seen professionally, and personally experienced, "medical miracles", but I wouldn't use them as arguments to "prove" my religion to anyone, despite my personal opinions on the matter.

Please stop making fallacious appeals to authority. If medical "miracles" convince you of some religious belief, that's perfectly fine. You are completely off base if you demand anyone else be convinced of it.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Let's be clear, doctors do not heal in the specific sense, they simply "do no harm". The body heals, and doctors merely assists in allowing the healing to take place. Doctors repair, replace, reconstruct, remove, relieve, discover and prescribe, or retargets the body's own immune responses. It is the body that grows new neural or vascular connections. It is the body that responds to antigens through its immune response. It is the body that grows new muscles and skin tissue(scar). It is the body that can recover from many fatal diseases, with or without medical assistance. Because our genetic make up is host-specific, our biological response to changes in our environment, is also be host-specific. Personal anecdotes are not objective evidence. For example, a patient finding out that he had brain cancer, and only months to live, decided to end his life with a bullet. He survived, and the bullet removed all of the tumor. But should we prescribe this action as a new method of surgery?

We all have the genes to regrow new limbs like our invertebrate cousins, but these genes lay dormant and are not turned on for a number of reasons.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The problem is what definition of the word miracle is being used by the doctor. I would guess they simply mean it was either rare or simply has no explanation. In either case, nothing supernatural or god like is invoked.

What is your specific definition of a miracle, anyway?

You know--how God sometimes heals amputees.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Not remotely what I said. Doctors are fine. But they're doctors. If you want to know about a medical condition, consult a doctor, that's what they're for. But they're not experts on religion. Asking a doctor to explain religion is like asking a plumber for advice about your computer. That's not in any way a criticism of plumbers, it's acknowledgement of the basic fact that being knowledgeable in one field doesn't make you an expert in another.

70% of doctors ascribe miracles in HEALING, you know--doctors' field of EXPERTISE.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No one's "disagreeing" with the alleged "70% of medical professionals". What people are pointing out is that medical professionals are not any more credible in this discussion than anyone else.

My father is a specialist physician. He's also deeply religious, yet I have never once heard him make a claim supporting his religious beliefs based on his medical experience, because he understands how science works, and how anecdotal experience doesn't support scientific claims. I'm a qualified nurse, and the survivor of two near death experiences, I have seen professionally, and personally experienced, "medical miracles", but I wouldn't use them as arguments to "prove" my religion to anyone, despite my personal opinions on the matter.

Please stop making fallacious appeals to authority. If medical "miracles" convince you of some religious belief, that's perfectly fine. You are completely off base if you demand anyone else be convinced of it.

Do you understand how self-defeating it is in the same post of yours to tell me:

1) Anecdotal evidence doesn't support scientific claims
2) Your anecdotes regarding your experience as a nurse, and your father's anecdotal experiences

What were the medical miracles caused by, since they weren't medical "miracles" in your opinion? Were they "Unexplained Frequent Occurrences" and thus, UFO's?

 

[SkepticThinker]

You know--how God sometimes heals amputees.

Examples?

 

[ecco]

Let's be clear, doctors do not heal in the specific sense, they simply "do no harm". The body heals, and doctors merely assists in allowing the healing to take place. Doctors repair, replace, reconstruct, remove, relieve, discover and prescribe, or retargets the body's own immune responses.

I guess you do not believe heart and kidney transplants save lives.
I guess you do not believe stents save lives.
I guess you do not believe back surgery greatly improves lives.
I guess you do not believe hip replacement and knee surgery greatly improve lives.

 

[ecco]

You know--how God sometimes heals amputees.

Might believe it if it ever happened.

 

[ecco]

70% of doctors ascribe miracles in HEALING

Still awaiting evidence.

 

[Milton Platt]

You know--how God sometimes heals amputees.

You know--how God sometimes heals amputees.

When has that happened?