3 dead, 6 injured in Michigan high school shooting; 15-year-old suspect in custody, authorities say

[Dan From Smithville]

So Jesus was pro weapon, and pro killing, and pro murder.

OK, thanks.

He wasn't. The Sermon on the Mount wasn't grab your swords boys where gonna kick some ***.

 

[Heyo]

How on Earth does that work? I'm stating a claim that people blame mental illness on gun violence. And that's because they do. [...]
And the belief is common enough it's a myth addressed in the book 50 Great Myths of Popular psychology.
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Good point.

They don't say "these violent people are an issue for mental illness." They say "we have to do more to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill."

And here the crazies meet the gun nuts. "Don't take away (my) guns!"

I didn't account for the "simple solution" to just ban the ,mentally ill from having guns (which I am for, btw) but my solution wouldn't stop there. Mentally ill people need help (as do people who are so disturbed that they start school shooting, mentally ill or not).

So, many people (at least in the film industry) do make the wrong reverse conclusion and that's not nice.

How about some information about reality to counteract that:
Mental patients in prisons: punishment versus treatment?

As you may see, the reality is the opposite of what is perceived. More mentally ill persons end up in prison than "just" criminal people end up in closed wards.

 

[Heyo]

He wasn't. The Sermon on the Mount wasn't grab your swords boys where gonna kick some ***.

Cherry picking? In Matthew 10:34 Jesus allegedly also said he's come to bring a sword.
That's the nice thing about the bible, you can find a quote that supports your position, no matter how wrong.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As you may see, the reality is the opposite of what is perceived.

I really don't know what you're getting at. You made a claim people don't really believe the claims of mental illness being behind gun violence, and I countered that claim.
Now you're throwing in how the mentally ill often end up incarcerated instead of in a care facility they need.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Cherry picking? In Matthew 10:34 Jesus allegedly also said he's come to bring a sword.
That's the nice thing about the bible, you can find a quote that supports your position, no matter how wrong.

That is one of those unfortunate problems that lets the worst ideas find support among the best ideas.

At least I cherry pick the peace-loving parts.

 

[Heyo]

I really don't know what you're getting at. You made a claim people don't really believe the claims of mental illness being behind gun violence, and I countered that claim.

And you were probably right.

Now you're throwing in how the mentally ill often end up incarcerated instead of in a care facility they need.

To help to counter the wrong notion that in reality (i.e. by the courts) violent people are often treated as mentally ill. The opposite is the case. The psychopathic killer is an invention of Holywood and has made its way into the public mindset.

 

[Heyo]

At least I cherry pick the peace-loving parts.

Preach it to the haters! (But not on RF, "no proselytising" rule et al.)

 

[Wildswanderer]

So Jesus was pro weapon, and pro killing, and pro murder.

OK, thanks.

What does having a sword for self defense have to do with being pro murder?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Are you aware that importers of assault rifles got around the law by installing a stock that linked the pistol grip and stock? It was a huge error my the assault rifle ban to include the pistol grip as an identifying part. Dealers even sold the original stock kits so the buyers could convert them to the original. There were even kits to make semi-auto rifles full auto.

It was not legal to make them full auto.
And yes the whole assault weapon thing is based on vague definations. The same gun without a pistol grip might be legal just because of how the silly law was defined. It's not the gun anyway. A person can shoot mass amounts of people with a single shot if he knows how to shoot and uses strategy.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Exactly. This is why we need to be more careful about who has access to guns in the USA. You might be the next victim.

Of a pipe bombing? Or knifing? Or a car run into a building or crowd? Or an airplane flown into a tower? How many people did McVeigh kill with deisel fuel and fertilizer?

 

[Wildswanderer]

So, dead children are just "excuses" for you?
Being gunned down is just "the American way to die"?
And everyone who doesn't want to be shot should get a gun and learn to shoot faster?

Imposing restrictions on law abiding people doesn't stop killers. Newsflash: murder is already illegal.

 

[F1fan]

Of a pipe bombing?

Bombs require a lot of research and real motivation and intent to use. The Boston Marathon bombers are an example of how extremism drives religious zealots. Or McVey as a political extremist. Your average teenager doesn't go this far.

Or knifing?

Knifings are done in many places where there is gun control. It can be deadly, but the what is better than guns is you can't outrun a bullet. You can outrun someone with a knife. If kids in the USA had to resort to using knives to killing their classmates there would be fewer deaths.

Or a car run into a building or crowd?

Another favorite among religious extremists.

Or an airplane flown into a tower?

The gold medal of religious extremism. Makes you wonder why God cannot keep his believers in check.

How many people did McVeigh kill with deisel fuel and fertilizer?

Hundreds, many children.

Do all these examples seem normal to you? Much of them are about believers who take their beliefs too far.

 

[F1fan]

Imposing restrictions on law abiding people doesn't stop killers. Newsflash: murder is already illegal.

But no need to make murder so damn easy, is it? It's almost as if you like when it happens. I don't understand why conservatives don't want to bother helping to solve this problem. It's like you just don't care that it happens, as long as it's not you.

Not very Christian, is it?

 

[Sand Dancer]

If they don't believe it why do they keep repeating it? It's an easy scape goat, and the mentally ill are stigmatized and demonized at many, many levels. Add in the fact there is a vast ocean of people who are armchair psychologists and start attaching violent behavior to what they think they know about something. So they get blamed.

Because acknowledging that doesn't provide answers. We don't like not knowing how to fix things.

 

[Sand Dancer]

But no need to make murder so damn easy, is it? It's almost as if you like when it happens. I don't understand why conservatives don't want to bother helping to solve this problem. It's like you just don't care that it happens, as long as it's not you.

Not very Christian, is it?

They hate the government more than they love people.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I don't know what that means.
Jesus was pro- sword. They didn't have guns at the time.

For every verse in the Bible there is probably one that contradicts it.

 

[Heyo]

Imposing restrictions on law abiding people doesn't stop killers. Newsflash: murder is already illegal.

Interesting how you didn't answer the questions. I assume that the answers were "yes" to all but you were to coward to really say it.
I guess you are also against drivers licenses and the prohibition of drunk driving? They are restrictions on law abiding people.

 

[Mock Turtle]

For most sane people it is inconceivable that a mass shooter could have had a logical reason for his action, thus, he must have been mentally ill, at least in the moment.
The reverse conclusion, that mentally ill people are violent is your straw man unless you can show that it is held by a majority or at least significant minority.

Whilst it may not be entirely logical, it seems to me that many of the people who target innocents, or those just in their environment, have anger and resentment as the prime motivation (very heightened above normal), and hence just might target proxies when they cannot target those they would like to seek revenge upon. Given that they can't deal with whatever and have no other solutions in their head. That is quite logical if one wanted to exact revenge but couldn't do so on the appropriate person or people - given that the pain is spread to others inevitably. This for me seems to explain why so many do target large numbers, and doesn't necessarily indicate they have a mental health issue - just issues with others. How much torment do some have to endure before they explode? Not an easy question to answer given we are all different and often can't place ourselves in the positions of others. Access to weapons just makes it so much easier in some countries.

 

[F1fan]

When these mass shootings happen we tend to hear the typical conservative responses: more laws won't stop killing, laws will only hurt law abiding people, we need fewer laws and rely more on personal responsibility, more regulation impedes liberty, etc.

What regulations will aim to do is not infringe on rights of law-abiding people, but will mean there are more steps in getting a gun. These steps would help weed out those who are not trustworthy enough to have access to guns, especially high capacity, rapid firing guns.

The right's weird and confusing stand on being "pro-life" seems to drive them to more extreme position as time goes on.

 

[Heyo]

The parents have now been indicted with involuntary manslaughter: