1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

144,000?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Green Gaia, Nov 18, 2004.

  1. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    28,672
    Ratings:
    +2,659
    As I notice that this is your first time on here, I thought I would take the opportunity to Welcome you to Religious Forums;



    I hope that you would feel able to introduce yourself to the other members of the forum, by posting on:- Are you new to ReligiousForums.com?



    Please feel free to ask questions, if you have any. You might like to check out our article with links for our newer members; from there, there is also a link to the forum rules which you ought to look at.

    I hope you will grow to enjoy this forum, and look forward to seeing your posts. ;)


     
  2. wmam

    wmam Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    955
    Ratings:
    +35
    May,

    That is some good stuff there. I tried to give you frubals but it wouldn't let me. It said I had to spread them around before I could give you anymore. I only give to those that I feel deserve so at least I tried to be fair. :149:
     
  3. may

    may Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    3,665
    Ratings:
    +110
    i must be honest and say that i dont really know what this frubel stuff is , havent looked into it i suppose, oh well, thanks any way:)
     
  4. jhavali

    jhavali New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2005
    Messages:
    9
    Ratings:
    +1
    That is not what Revelations means when the bible talks about only 144,000 will be saved there are two classes there are ones who will have a Earthly hope and the other class will have a heavenly hope which is the 144,000 Rev 5:10 says And you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth."

    They are to rule over what? The Earth So there is hope for all man kind to come to an accurate knowledge of truth John 17:3 hope this helps.
     
  5. angellous_evangellous

    Ratings:
    +0
    John Calvin never limited the elect to 144k. That is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine.
     
  6. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    28,672
    Ratings:
    +2,659
    Hi jhavali,

    Welcome to the Forum;

    As I notice that this is your first visit here, perhaps you would like to introduce yourself to the other members, by posting on:- Are you new to ReligiousForums.com?

    Please feel free to ask questions, if you have any. You might like to check out our article with links for our newer members; from there, there is also a link to the forum rules which you ought to see.

    I hope you'll like it here, and I look forward to seeing you around. ;)


     
  7. wmam

    wmam Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    955
    Ratings:
    +35
  8. Mark1615

    Mark1615 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2005
    Messages:
    165
    Ratings:
    +8
    Revelation 7:4-8 does not refer to Jehovah's Witnesses who have been born again, as they claim. The 144,000 are from the twelve tribes of Israel!
     
  9. may

    may Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    3,665
    Ratings:
    +110
    the number 144,000 was predesdined ,not the individuals making up that number ,some may have been chosen but did not remain faithful to God . so the number it self was worked out by God , but if some over the years fell to unfaithfulness others would have been chosen by God .

    2 Peter 1:10; Revelation 2:5, 10, 16; 3:11)

    For this reason, brothers, all the more do YOUR utmost to make the calling and choosing of YOU sure for yourselves; for if YOU keep on doing these things YOU will by no means ever fail. 2 peter 1;10

    Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life .... revelation 2;10

    I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have, that no one may take your crown revelation 3;11

    At this Peter opened his mouth and said: "For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him..acts 10;34-35

    but in these last days that we are living in now ,the great crowd of other sheep that will inherit the earth are being gathered .The other sheep do not have a heavenly hope ,but they have the hope of living on a paradise earth after the wicked are got rid of by God
    That is why the wicked ones will not stand up in the judgment psalm 1;5

    (Matthew 13:49) That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things: the angels will go out and separate the wicked from among the righteous


    And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd John10;16

     
  10. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    28,672
    Ratings:
    +2,659
    At least my sense of humour is constant; I tried to Fruball you for that one, but "You cannot fruball the same post twice"........:D

    BTW............http://www.apocalipsis.org/144000.htm (an extract only)

    The 144,000 sealed (Revelation 7:1)

    [​IMG]
    Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
    Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
    7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. Rev 7:5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, 6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, 7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. Who are the 144,000?

    This vision of the 144,000 and the vision of the great multitude (7:9 ff.) form an interlude between the sixth and seventh seals. Just as in the interlude between the sixth and seventh trumpets we see a description of the witnessing church so here we get a description of the church. There is no such interlude between the sixth and seventh bowl. Before the seven trumpets are to be sounded which serve as warnings to mankind, the church is first sealed to protect them from these disasters that come upon mankind. The number 144,000 is a symbolic number (cf. 21:12 ff.) and the description of the 144,000 sealed, symbolically describes the NT + OT church not just the OT tribes of Israel. Neither are they a select group of Jewish missionaries who arise in the last days. It should be noted that the list of the twelve tribes is not just a list it is a census. The reasons why the 144,000 represent the church are summarised below:

    i. They are described as the servants of our God in verse 3, a term that refers to the church, and is used more than 11 times in Revelation, see 1:1, 1:6, 5:10, 6:11, 7:15, 19:2, 19:5, 19:10, 22:3, 22:6, 22:9. The book of Revelation was written to God's servants (1:1, 22:6).

    ii. The NT Church is called the Israel of God (Gal 6:16). Both Jews and Gentiles are members of Christ's body and share the same promises, the church is Abraham's offspring (Eph 3:6, Gal 3:6-9, 28-29). See also James 1:1.

    iii. Judah is the firstborn instead of Reuben. Jesus is the firstborn of the dead (Col 1:15 ) and he is descended from Judah (Heb 7:14). Note while Jesus was on earth he went through the initiation rights of both Jews (circumcision) and Christians (baptism). Judah offered himself as a substitute for his brother Benjamin (Gen 44:33) and is therefore a type of Christ.

    iv. Levi the tribe of priests is included in the census, they are normally excluded from a census (Num 1:47), the saints are described as priests in 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

    v. Joseph, who is a type of Christ is included (instead of Ephraim), there is nothing wrong spoken about him, see verse eight for more detail.

    vi. Dan and Ephraim who went off into idolatry are excluded, they are replaced by Levi and Joseph, there are no idolaters in the church, 21:8, 22:15. Irenaeus thinks that the antichrist will come from Dan and quotes, Jer 8:16.

    vii. Those in an OT census are ransomed people (cf. Exo 30:12).

    viii. The number 144 (12*12 i.e. OT * NT) and 12,000 occur again in the description of the New Jerusalem, Rev 21:12-17, which is clearly both OT (twelve tribes and 12 gates) and NT church (twelve apostles and 12 foundations). This could also be a description of the Jewish and Gentile church, but the emphasis is that it is the complete church.

    ix. The 144,000 are found again in 14:1 where they have the name of the Lamb and the Father written on their foreheads. In the description of the new Jerusalem, 22:3-4, we also find God's servants with his name on their foreheads. The 144,000 in 14:1-5 are described as followers of the Lamb, they sing a new song, they are pure and blameless, they are redeemed from the earth.

    x. Milligan points out that if the seal is the antithesis of the mark of the beast which is on all his followers then the seal of God will be on all His followers and not just a part.

    xi. God is sealing all of his people against the coming trumpets not just a part just as all God's people escaped the plagues on the Egyptians. All those who put the blood of the lamb on the door posts and lintels escaped from the destroying angel.

     
  11. Bangbang

    Bangbang Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    891
    Ratings:
    +71
    As a former JW I am curious what the Watchtower Society will have to say when all the Annointed have passed on and nothing happens. They always come up with something.
     
  12. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    28,672
    Ratings:
    +2,659
    I know I will be reviled for saying this (by some), but there does seem to be numerological "Coincidences" which are a bit far fetched (as in coincidences).........
     
  13. Bangbang

    Bangbang Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    891
    Ratings:
    +71
    The bible has so many errors when using numbers I would not take this number of 144,000 seriuosly.
     
  14. may

    may Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    3,665
    Ratings:
    +110
    of coarse they do , thrilling times indeed. seems you are getting left behind in understanding , other wise you would not have said that , you would know the answer to it.
    (1 John 2:11) But he that hates his brother is in the darkness and is walking in the darkness, and he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes


    (Psalm 97:11) Light itself has flashed up for the righteous one, And rejoicing even for the ones upright in heart............. still we all make our own choices , to be in darkness or to go to the light, seems you have made yours , but for me i look to the flashes of light revealed in these last days
    Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? matthew 24;45


     
  15. Bangbang

    Bangbang Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    891
    Ratings:
    +71
    Jeremiah 23:16 (New International Version)




    16 This is what the LORD Almighty says:
    "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you;
    they fill you with false hopes.
    They speak visions from their own minds,
    not from the mouth of the LORD.
     
  16. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    14,082
    Ratings:
    +2,193
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    Before I begin, I have a confession to make...I have not read through this thread completely, so my post here may not be on topic...

    I've always interpreted the 144,000 as being those who accept Christ AFTER the rapture. These are those who will battle against the non believers.
     
  17. may

    may Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    3,665
    Ratings:
    +110
    the 144,000 started to be chosen from the first century C.E. onward , so most have died and are now in the heavenly kingdom goverment. thrilling times indeed we are now living in


     
  18. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    14,082
    Ratings:
    +2,193
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    Would you mind expounding a bit on that? I just read things so differently. Not to pick at or degrade your views in any way.
     
  19. angellous_evangellous

    Ratings:
    +0
    :clap
    :clap

    A cursory look at a commentary will clear it up. There's only one group around who thinks that only 144k will make it to heaven (the JWs), and they did NOT get it from John Calvin.
     
  20. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    14,082
    Ratings:
    +2,193
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    Where did they get it from?
     
Loading...