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144,000?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Green Gaia, Nov 18, 2004.

  1. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    Ernestine you shouldn’t have to apologize, I was young and very naïve and I would never hold it against Jehovah’s organization. I felt more sorrow for the elder whose duty it was to explain to me that I wasn’t going to heaven to be one of the 144.000.

     
  2. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    ^stephen and even the apostles made mistakes as well, this proves nothing to their not being annointed, nothing at all.



    precept(didn't you say "I exhort you to not tamper with scripture!"?????):

    the almighty father does not have an 'only son'.he has an 'only begotten son'.you seem to be guilty by your own judgement.


    the almighty father as a matter of fact has billions and more children.
     
  3. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    ==========
    stephen and even the apostles made mistakes as well, this proves nothing to their not being annointed, nothing at all.
    ==========

    This is true but their names are in the holy scriptures (Bible). They made them and wrote that they did and didn't make up a term like "imperfection" to cover them up.

    Jehovah's Witnesses used to have a lapel pin that had a cross and a crown on it. It was made of gold. They used to celebrate Christmas. Now they say those were both mistakes. They say the star that the astrologers saw when the messiah was born was sent by Satan. Check out their book, The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived.

    What proves that they aren't anointed is the time that has elapsed since the scriptures were penned or better yet, since the vision was relayed to the apostle John. God didn't have it all written down in the odd chance that some guy from Pennsylvania would decipher the scriptures meaning thousands of years down the road then rewrite the entire scriptures based on what they thought the translations meant, then wait for them to create a religious organization, create a Board of Directors and a Corporation so they could practice organized religion in the United States, then have the founding members and a few who got a chance to be appointed to run the place call themselves "anointed" to the world because they think they are.

    Jehovah's Witnesses believe that when their "Governing Body" was arrested and then released later on that this fulfilled two prophecies laid out in the book of Revelation. The battle with the wild beast over Christ's brothers and restoration of pure worship. Insane in the membrane!!!

    God would have put a prophecy in the scriptures and Jesus would have left a definitive description or telltale sign of when and what they would look like, these anointed. But he didn't. He, Jesus, made it perfectly clear what would appear after he left to his disciples and the apostles wrote that up for all to see. You can be a Christian by your works today but you most definitely can't be anointed because they, the disciples back then, physically laid their hands on people or were in their prescence when they were baptized. Everyone back then could perform wonders as it is written in the scriptures. As for today? The chain is broken. God doesn't anoint anyone any more. Those people who were are long gone passed away. The "anointed" witnesses for Jehovah are not anointed at all. They are deluded and very much mistaken.

    I don't associate with Jehovah's Witnesses anymore just as a side note. They are a cult from a Presbyterian Pastor who didn't like what he learned or read so he made up his own religion. Charles Taze Russell bamboozled everyone with his Millennial Dawn writings and Zion's Watchtower.

    There aren't any anointed Christians anymore. When the last apostle died that was it. The end of the anointed from the scriptures. There are enough signs from those that were in those days to use as a guide towards any who say they are now. That's why God has them in there.

    Oh, one more thing. Get a concordance and look for the words: perfect, imperfect, and perfection for the King James or New World Translation.

    It doesn't say that Adam and Eve lost their perfection. The Bible (scriptures) say they lost paradise and eventually died just as God said they would.
     
  4. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    i don't trust the kjv or the nwt, you are not dealing with a jw.so i see no benefit to discussing their practices or beliefs with you.

    well, beyond the statement that they are not a cult.despite however many christians will tell you otherwise.burgerking will tell you mcdonalds food is no good(example, not literal).

    welcome to the board.-shawn
     
  5. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    Hi t3gah and welcome to Religious Forums.
     
  6. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Precept, it has been interesting talking to you, and even though we disagree on certain points, I don't hold anything against you - I want you to know that. We will just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. :)
     
  7. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Since when has the above been a criterion for the 144,000? Where in the Bible does it say that they must perform the above? In fact, Jesus himself taught the exact opposite:

    Matthew 7:21: “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.”



    Ah, but there is a difference – God gave him the ability to and allowed it to happen. Acts 7:55: “ But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand”. Note the word “Holy Spirit” – which is God’s active force. God, since Stephen was about to get killed, gave him that ability – and not before. Also, ask yourself this: Why could’nt the Apostles of Jesus also see God and his Son? According to you, they should have – however, there is no Biblical accounts of this – Stephen’s case was exceptional, and is NOT a criteria for the 144,000 – and never has been.



    Proverbs 4:18: “But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.”

    What is your interpretation of that scripture, perfect form day 1 or gradual improvement? All least we have the humility to change a doctrine if it is not in 100% line with the scriptures – all when we change it – it for the better! If you look at most other groups/organizations, they REFUSE to change in the face of fact! Who is doing the better?




    Write what documents and blame whom? Care to elaborate? Or do I take your word for it?


    Also, as far as “bringing people to God” – that is exactly what we are doing. Our preaching work is unprecedented in the entire history of humans, and is all free-of-charge, voluntary on our part, and for the good of man.




    The anointed ones were chosen by holy spirit – not identity cards! The Bible clearly says in Acts 20:28: “Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.” (Acts 20:28) There is no mention of any literal documentation here – and never has been in the entire Bible.





    You are not convincing me – and anybody with common sense is not convinced either. You have done nothing but contradict us with every remark you make – let alone speak truth. If you were speaking truth, why would I even have to show you from the BIBLE that what you are saying is wrong? Think about that one. In reality you know nothing about - and you very well know it.
     
  8. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    I'm not even going to spend my time refuting most of the comments that "t3gah" has typed down. Most of it is apostate propaganda and the rest is nonsensical. Most of the things he/she is typing down is totally unscriptural and actually contradicts what we teach - let alone tell the truth about us!

    Have you got any scriptural evidence to back up your claim of "all the anointed are gone", or is that just you personal opinion? Because I have a scripture that proves you wrong:

    Matthew 24:22-23:
    In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short. "Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.
    Clearly then, the "chosen ones" will be still around when the end finally comes - and this is backed from by none other than the Bible itself.​

    Genesis 2:16,17: And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.

    Jehovah God clearly said that IF they were to eat from the tree of good and bad, they would positively die - he did not condemn them to death anyhow. But since they disobeyed God and ate from the tree - they died and genetically gave their childredn sin. This is confirmed by the following scriptures:

    Romans 5:12: "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned".

    Psalmes 51:5: " Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, And in sin my mother conceived me."

    Romans 6:23: "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord."
     
  9. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Out of respect for everybody and of my fellow Jehovah's Witnesses, my time here has finally come to an end.

    I have enjoyed my stay here, and in the light of recent apostacy against us on this site, the right thing for me to do is to take my leave. I could argue everypoint that is thrown at us, but I don't intend to smear the name of my beloved God, Jehovah, in the process of doing so. As a JW, you will always have to get used to apostacy following you around wherever you go, with them trying to undermine your faith as much as possible. If I were to stay on this board, it would become an anti-JW feeding ground in which people would come on here just to dump anti-JW propaganda against us to try to blacken our name, and more importantly, the name of Jehovah - and I don't want to let that happen.

    It has been great conversing with some of you, Carrdero, SOGFPP, SoulType1, Robtex, and may others, and I wish you the very best for the future.

    "Love one another intensely from the heart."—1 Pet. 1:22.

    Thanks,

    WitnessofJah ;)

    P.S. If you really want to contact me or have a question to ask about the Bible or us, feel free to PM me - I will answer you then. :) However, I won't be posting on the main board anymore.
     
  10. hebrew

    hebrew Member

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    The hundred and forty four "theory" is actually a fact; it was taken from Revelations the 7th chapter. One hundred forty four thousand, consisting of the twelve tribes of Isreal, 12,000 from each tribe, will be saved along with 1/3 men, women, and children of the nation of Isreal that was scattered amongst the other nations/races. Jehovah's witness, along with anyone else, do not know who will be saved from being destroyed of the nation of Isreal; only the Lord will know that. All those who will be saved are pre-ordained.
     
  11. precentor

    precentor Member

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    I dunno, hebrew--it seems to me that interpretation is one which didn't exist in the Christian faith until within the last 200 years or so. Don't you think it's possible that the "dozen of a dozen thousand" number was just a figure speech to indicate "lots more than I could count"?

    Similar to the "forty days and forty nights" that the flood is said to have lasted, that Jesus is said to have been tempted by Satan in the desert, the forty years that Moses and his entourage wandered in the wilderness, etc etc etc. Of course, if you don't believe that any of the Bible is intended figuratively, this may cut no ice with you...

    I'll save my grouchiness about predestination for later. Don't thank me yet. :)
     
  12. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    and the early church didn't participate in the military.
     
  13. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    The 144k, are 12k from each of the tribes of Israel who will have the seal of God on their forehead and they will be on Earth during the end when God is wreaking havoc on the world.

    I don't think so. In Rev. he counts to 200 million, and when there was a number uncountable(those standing at the Throne of God) he states it.
     
  14. Greyprophet

    Greyprophet Member

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    Calvin is wrong in a way...

    There are 144,000 people threw all time who will understand the "truth", they have it "sealed" in their head (metaphoric of course). This is not all the people God will save...they are the first fruits. They are the ones who first trusted God. They are the spirits of Angels that first trusted God.

    These are merely the first fruits..

    I will tell you about the Elect....for I am one.

    The elect love God. The elect understand the true love of God. The elect know Jesus is God.
    The elect also know this....and it is hard for the world to understand because of the veil that satan has placed over their eyes (that same veil is in the old testimont),

    JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND. PERIOD.

    Only one will not be saved...that son of perdition.

    All else Will be saved and come unto the knowledge of the father.

    God is all Love.....Love casts out all fear.

    Satan has blinded many into believing God's love is conditional. And Jesus himself did not directly explain because not everyone is suppose to (YET).

    Have faith...and remember that no matter what you do..God will save all.

    But..if you truelly believe in JEsus..you will do good works. If you dont truelly believe..and you are not the elect...then you will take this as an occasion to do evil. From a good tree comes good fruit.

    Do good to one another. Love one another...and forgive one another as Jesus Christ God has forgiven us.

    WE ARE ALL GOING TO BE SAVED.

    Let him who has ears to hear...hear.
     
  15. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    What's harmegeddon for?
     
  16. Nubialy

    Nubialy New Member

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    I am one of Jehovah's Witness I have been one since 1962, It is very important to us to proclaim God's Kingdom I enjoy the explanation Red posted from the encyclopedia I founded to be truthful and that makes me happy. About the 144,000, Witnesses have never said they the 144,000 are the only people that are going to be saved as a matter of fact the only judge of that will be God and his appointed King and Judge JesusChrist. We do believe that at the present a Great Crowd of people are being gather from all nations of the earth these people are discribed by God as the desirable things of all the nations
    7 "‘And I will rock all the nations, and the desirable things of all the nations must come in; and I will fill this house with glory,’ Jehovah of armies has said. Haggai 2:7
    Also Isaiah predicted these flow of people to God's side in Isaiah 60:8,11
    8 "Who are these that come flying just like a cloud, and like doves to their birdhouse holes?
    11 "And your gates will actually be kept open constantly; they will not be closed even by day or by night, in order to bring to you the resources of the nations, and their kings will be taking the lead.

    10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;

    And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.

    11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,

    And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

    Salmo 37:11. The fact that there is two hopes one spiritual and one earthly is clearly stablished in the Bible.
    While Jesus Christ was yet with his followers here on earth he spoke to them about heavenly life. For example, the night before his death he told them: "In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be."—John 14:1-3.

    Millions of persons have set their hearts on such heavenly life. To them it has represented a prospect of relief from the troubles of this life. But do you know why God has arranged for some persons to go to heaven? Do you know what they will do there?IN HEAVEN AS KINGS AND PRIESTSDuring his earthly ministry Jesus often spoke of the "kingdom of the heavens" or "kingdom of God." (Matt. 10:7; 13:44-47; Luke 4:43; 8:1) That kingdom is a heavenly rule or government that Almighty God will use to accomplish his purpose. Jesus taught his followers to pray that, by means of the Kingdom, God’s will would be done here on earth. (Matt. 6:9, 10) Thus, under the rule of God’s kingdom, the earth will become a delightful home for all mankind.

    This helps us to understand what Jesus meant when he said to his faithful followers: "Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom." (Luke 12:32) Yes, God would give this "little flock" a share in the heavenly government over all mankind.

    At Revelation 20:6 we read concerning those who would be resurrected to heavenly life: "They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years." Jesus Christ is the principal king and the high priest, and these faithful ones taken from the earth serve with him. As the Bible says: "They will rule as kings over the earth."—Rev. 5:9, 10.

    Why are they chosen from the earth for such a work? Because it was here at this earth that Jehovah God’s rulership was challenged. It was here that the faithfulness of men to God could be put to the test under opposition from the Devil. It was here that Jesus proved his full loyalty to God under test and gave his life as a ransom for mankind. So it was from this earth that Jehovah arranged to take a "little flock" of persons to be associated with his Son in the heavenly kingdom.

    Those taken from earth to serve as heavenly kings and priests are persons who show full faith in God’s provision for salvation through Christ. They are ones whose lives prove the Devil a liar when he charged that men serve God only for selfish advantage. Jehovah has marvelously purposed to use them for his glory. (Eph. 1:9-12) Under the direction of God’s own loyal Son they will have a further part, from heaven, in clearing God’s name of reproach as he brings this present wicked system of things to its end.—Rom. 16:20; Rev. 2:26, 27.

    As kings and priests under the direction of Jesus Christ, they will serve from their heavenly positions in carrying out Jehovah’s will toward mankind. How wonderful it will be to have as rulers those who have proved faithful to God! (Rev. 20:4) And how loving of God to put in office those who have experienced the problems common to humankind! Surely, they, like Christ, will deal in an understanding way with their subjects.—Heb. 2:17, 18.

    What a blessing it will be to the inhabitants of earth as these heavenly priests apply to them the benefits of Christ’s ransom sacrifice, healing them spiritually, mentally and physically until they reach perfection! In this way, Almighty God will fulfill toward his earthly subjects his grand promise to "wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be any more. The former things have passed away."—Rev. 21:2-4.HOW MANY GO TO HEAVEN?Those who are called by God to Share in heavenly service are few in number. As Jesus said, they are a "little flock." Years after his return to heaven, Jesus made known the exact number in a vision to the apostle John, who wrote: "I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand . . . who have been bought from the earth."—Rev. 14:1, 3.

    The "Lamb" referred to here is, of course, Jesus Christ; and this "Mount Zion" is not on earth, but in heaven where Jesus is. (John 1:29; Heb. 12:22) So the 144,000 are persons who die on earth as humans and are resurrected to heavenly life as spirit creatures, as Jesus was. (Rom. 6:5) When compared with the thousands of millions of persons who live on earth, they are, indeed, a "little flock." Even single cities that have more than 144,000 residents are common on earth today.

    However, the "little flock" who go to heaven are not the only ones who receive salvation. As we have seen, they will have a vast number of happy earthly subjects. Jesus referred to these as his "other sheep," of whom "a great crowd" are even now serving God faithfully.—John 10:16; Rev. 7:9, 15.

    What is your hope? Is it to receive eternal life with Christ in the heavens? Or is it to enjoy the blessings of the Kingdom rule as one of its earthly subjects?
     
  17. Stormygale

    Stormygale Member

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    This being a resurrected thread, I guess we are allowed to this here on the forum.
    -
    Anyway, if only 144000 souls are allowed to be saved and enter Heaven, then, most of you who are of the Jehovahs Witness religion had better give up. There are many more ahead of you who have done much more major works and who are in line ahead of you....
    That makes no sense to me.....
    -
    Have I understood the religion wrong or something...???
    Do tell...
     
  18. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT

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    You sir, are indeed wrong.

    "Evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth."—Psalm 37:9.

    Why some do go to heaven:
    Many readers of the Bible, however, are aware of Jesus' words: "In the house of my Father there are many abodes. . . . I am going my way to prepare a place for you." (John 14:2, 3) Does this not contradict the idea of life everlasting on a paradise earth?

    These teachings are not contradictory. In fact, one supports the other. To begin with, the Bible states that only a limited number of faithful Christians—namely, 144,000 of them—are raised as spirit creatures to live in heaven. Why? Because they make up the group that John saw in a vision who "came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years." (Revelation 14:1, 3; 20:4-6) Compared with the billions on earth, the 144,000 are a "little flock." (Luke 12:32) Moreover, having experienced the problems common to humankind, like Jesus they will be able to "sympathize with our weaknesses" as they supervise the rehabilitation of mankind and of the earth.—Hebrews 4:15.


    Witnesses go around preaching to to people so as to save their lives, to give them a chance to live with them forever.


    And yes, the annointed just know. If you wonder if you are an annointed then you are not. I can give you more information on how the annointed know and when they were chosen.

    From watchtower.org
     
  19. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Arghhhhhh I need annointing............:rolleyes:
     
  20. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT

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    I'd rather live on earth forever to be honest. i have no desire to live in heaven.
     
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