144,000?

[may]

I still interpret this as the 144,000 who are left and side with Christ AFTER the rapture.

Anyone who believes in Christ, picks up their cross and follows HIM is promised everlasting life. So, I have a hard time understanding your interpretation...unless you completely discount John 3:16.

JOHN 3;16
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. ..........This verse applies to all those exerscising faith in Jesus, those going to heaven ,the little flock.
"Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom."—LUKE 12:32.
and also the great crowd that will inherit the earth.
"And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. John 10;16 these are the other sheep in revelation 7;9-10
(Revelation 7:9) After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands................. notice it says after these things , first it mentions the 144,000 they are the little flock , then it mentions the other sheep . they also exercise faith in Jesus, in fact they are welcoming him as the king of Gods heavenly kingdom, they have their symbolic palm branches in their hands welcoming Jesus as king, a similar thing happened in a litral way , when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey and they welcomed him . yes the book of revelation is well and truly for our day , thrilling times indeed

 

[ProfLogic]

144,000 souls.. this is bad news.. that explains why hell's apartments are overpriced. Good luck to 144,000 of you who would live a life of your choice with the supervision of a self proclaimed god who wants you to adore all the time. Is anyone sure that the numbers in the bible were accurately translated.. adam did live for almost 1,000 years I believe...

 

[may]

144,000 souls.. this is bad news.. that explains why hell's apartments are overpriced. Good luck to 144,000 of you who would live a life of your choice with the supervision of a self proclaimed god who wants you to adore all the time. Is anyone sure that the numbers in the bible were accurately translated.. adam did live for almost 1,000 years I believe...

my hope is to live on a paradise earth , not in heaven . yes Adam died at 930 i think, which was within the day , just as God said he would if he eat the fruit, many think that when God said he would die in the day he eat the fruit, he was referring to a 24 hour day , but a day in the eyes of Jehovah in this instant was a thousand year day, and he did die within the thousand years.
However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day 2 peter 3;8

 

[groovyable]

I'l stay on earth, its the only place with chocolate, and guinness... yet the 144,000 will reign as kings and priests over the earth...
Food shortages will be no more,psalm 72;16
The whole earth will become paradise isaiah 65;21-24
There will be peace between humans and animals, isaiah 11;6-9
Acts 24;15.. no one will die again
There will be a lot of food on the earth pslam 77;16
Blind people will see, isaiah 35;5
psalm 37;11 .. the meek ones will inherit the earth, Matthew 5, is a good chapter to, too prove that there are two type of groups, so to speak... Jesus tought his follwers that the meek one will live on earth yet there is a small handful that would go to heaven too. which are the 144,000. Jesus also referred to those who were going to heaven as a little flock john 14;2.

 

[Random]

John Calvin said that God will save only so many souls, 144,000, and that nobody knows who they are but God and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Where on earth did he get this idea?

His version of Babylonian numerology. It's nonsense, of course.

 

[faithofabraham]

my hope is to live on a paradise earth , not in heaven . yes Adam died at 930 i think, which was within the day , just as God said he would if he eat the fruit, many think that when God said he would die in the day he eat the fruit, he was referring to a 24 hour day , but a day in the eyes of Jehovah in this instant was a thousand year day, and he did die within the thousand years.
However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day 2 peter 3;8

tis true...but i would watch out defining God so quickly. Jesus on the cross told the thief that on that day he would be with him in paradise. it has been more than 1000 years since Jesus died and I dont believe that the earthly paradise has arrived. meaning that the thief has not received his reward yet.

nice though I use these verses myself(among others) to show people that they dont go to heaven when they die, and that they need to look at the Word of God with a little more depth.
nice post though

FOA

 

[groovyable]

tis true...but i would watch out defining God so quickly. Jesus on the cross told the thief that on that day he would be with him in paradise. it has been more than 1000 years since Jesus died and I dont believe that the earthly paradise has arrived. meaning that the thief has not received his reward yet.

nice though I use these verses myself(among others) to show people that they dont go to heaven when they die, and that they need to look at the Word of God with a little more depth.
nice post though

FOA

You missed out the comma... Jesus said to that thief 'truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise'

hehe thats what it says in my Bible anyways, it might be different in some translations.

 

[may]

tis true...but i would watch out defining God so quickly. Jesus on the cross told the thief that on that day he would be with him in paradise. it has been more than 1000 years since Jesus died and I dont believe that the earthly paradise has arrived. meaning that the thief has not received his reward yet.

nice though I use these verses myself(among others) to show people that they dont go to heaven when they die, and that they need to look at the Word of God with a little more depth.
nice post though

FOA

when Jesus said that to the thief he was saying ,I TELL YOU TODAY meaning , he was telling him there and then that there would come a time when the thief would be in paradise, this would happen at a future time when Jesus would resurrect people into a paradise earth. getting the comma in the right place as Groofyable mentioned works wonders to the accurate understanding . Jesus was not saying you will be with me in paradise TODAY it would be at a future time from then.
In fact, there was no punctuation in the earliest Greek manuscripts of the Bible. Hence, when punctuation was introduced, Bible copyists and translators had to insert it according to their understanding of Bible truth. Is, then, the traditional rendering correct? Did Jesus and the evildoer go to Paradise the day they died?

 

[faithofabraham]

when Jesus said that to the thief he was saying ,I TELL YOU TODAY meaning , he was telling him there and then that there would come a time when the thief would be in paradise, this would happen at a future time when Jesus would resurrect people into a paradise earth. getting the comma in the right place as Groofyable mentioned works wonders to the accurate understanding . Jesus was not saying you will be with me in paradise TODAY it would be at a future time from then.
In fact, there was no punctuation in the earliest Greek manuscripts of the Bible. Hence, when punctuation was introduced, Bible copyists and translators had to insert it according to their understanding of Bible truth. Is, then, the traditional rendering correct? Did Jesus and the evildoer go to Paradise the day they died?

I dont know what translation groovy is using but in the King James the comma is before today....
'And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say utno thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.'
commas or no commas Today is a future time and not specifically 1000 years. that was my point. my warning is because many use this 'today' meaning on that day, not at a future time. And if you tell people that a day actually means a thousand years all the time then you can really confuse people and you can create a weakness in your argument.
but now we are really arguing the same point.

FOA

 

[Bick]

If Calvin said that, I would like to know what document it was in.

When I read Rev. 7:4-8, it's pretty clear they are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes listed. So, one must be an Israelite to be one of the 144,000. And, futhermore, Rev.14:4 describes the 144,000 as virgin males, who have not defiled themselves with women. Sooo, no women!

As for the thief on the cross being in paradise that day, I agree with May and Groovyable, that there were no punctuations in the original Greek manuscripts, or in the thousands of copies until the ninth century, and then it was only a dot separating each word. The phrase, "I say unto thee this day", is a common Hebrew idiom used for very solemn emphasis. In Deut. alone, the term "this day" is used for such emphasis 42 times.

May, you discussed it somewhat, and I'll pick it up: The thief asked the Lord, "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power". RSV. And Jesus answered "Truly , I say unto you today, you will be with me in the paradise", my version, similar to Concordant Version and Rotherham Version. By checking a Greek-English Interlinear NT, one can see the word for "the" is before "paradise".

Why? Because when Jesus as Messiah comes to establish the kingdom on earth, the land of Israel will be made into a beautiful garden, which is what "paradise" means.
See Isa.35; Psa.67:4,6; 72:6,7,16,17; Jer.31:5,12; Ezek. 34:25-27; 36:29,30 etc.

So, this makes sense that both Jesus and all the others with him died that day.

The great thing is, Jesus was resurrected, made alive, to never die again, while the others must await their own particular resurrection.

The believing thief will, IMO, be resurrected with a great host of righteous persons at the beginning of the Millennium. While the unrighteous will be resurrected and judged later at the great white throne.

First , Daniel writes in 12:2, "many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall
awake, some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt." RSV.

This is similar to what Jesus said in John 5:28,29, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Daniel, in 12:12: "Happy are those who persevere and attain the thousand three hundred and thirty five days." Which I believe is 75 days after Messiah the Prince returns to deliver Israel and defeat the armies marching on Jerusalem.

And finally, I understand this to be the first (or former) resurrection mentioned in
Rev.20:4-6. While it is true, that in Rev. it only describes those who had been killed for their testimony to Jesus, and had not worshipped the beast or it's image, as being in this resurrection, from Daniel I believe all 'who have done good' will also be included.

Bick

 

[faithofabraham]

couldnt agree with ya more.

FOA

 

[may]

I dont know what translation groovy is using but in the King James the comma is before today....
'And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say utno thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.'
commas or no commas Today is a future time and not specifically 1000 years. that was my point. my warning is because many use this 'today' meaning on that day, not at a future time. And if you tell people that a day actually means a thousand years all the time then you can really confuse people and you can create a weakness in your argument.
but now we are really arguing the same point.

FOA

many are led to believe that they both went to heaven that day , but they didnt Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days. putting a comma in the wrong place changes the meaning, and many bible translators have done this including the KJV

 

[BM5]

it is a known fact that in the bible women are sometimes spoken of symbolically, for instance (babylon the great) is spoken of as a woman, this woman is the world empire of false religion, and the bible tells us that she has daughters also . so the 144,000 have not defiled themselves with false religion or participated in her practices ,they are spiritually clean . things are not always as they seem ,we have to dig a bit deeper sometimes to get a correct understanding , especially in the book of revelation as after all for the most part it is highly symbolic

Well then of course according to your position only JW's will be in Heaven since your the only ones on the planet that have not defiled themselves with false religion.

How is it that your version of beliefs only sprang up in the late 1800's ? Where was all this hiding for the last few thousand years ?

Also if only 144,00 JW's get Heaven because they are undefiled with false religion how come there is no room in that vast universe for the rest of your sect ? I mean to say that at present you have 6 million or so ? They aren't defiled with false religion since they also are believers - so the conclusion is your interpetation doesn't make sense.

 

[SB Habakuk]

I will give you another cipher
Of the Hebrew term Lamedh Vhav
For 144,000
is the number related to them- The Very Elect
there are 36 Tseddikims and for each one 4000 Lamedh Vhavs supprt them
1 tssedikim is given roughly 167 earth years to influence
The Last influence is 1834 - 2011 - Isiah said- One will be cut of in the middle of his week 1972 the phrophecy came to bear

 

[adilrockstar]

John Calvin said that God will save only so many souls, 144,000, and that nobody knows who they are but God and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Where on earth did he get this idea?

He is misinterpreting Revelation 7:1-4.

The 144,000 represent the people that God will leave on earth during Tribulation to preach to the unsaved. All of the rest of God's people will be pulled up to heaven in the "rapture". The 144,000 were marked with a seal, because God will protect them during this time when wickedness will overtake the earth completely.

 

[nutshell]

He is misinterpreting Revelation 7:1-4.

The 144,000 represent the people that God will leave on earth during Tribulation to preach to the unsaved. All of the rest of God's people will be pulled up to heaven in the "rapture". The 144,000 were marked with a seal, because God will protect them during this time when wickedness will overtake the earth completely.

Your explanation suffers from its own misinterpretation. There is no scriptural support for the so-called "rapture."

 

[adilrockstar]

Your explanation suffers from its own misinterpretation. There is no scriptural support for the so-called "rapture."

You read it differently than I do.

You can no more "prove" your view to me than I can "prove" mine to you. This is an issue that the Holy Spirit must reveal to someone.


God Bless


Adil

 

[nutshell]

You read it differently than I do.

You can no more "prove" your view to me than I can "prove" mine to you. This is an issue that the Holy Spirit must reveal to someone.


God Bless


Adil

Agreed.

 

[robtex]

You can no more "prove" your view to me than I can "prove" mine to you. This is an issue that the Holy Spirit must reveal to someone.
Adil

Are you saying the holy spirt revealed this idea to you and that you are a prophet?

 

[adilrockstar]

Are you saying the holy spirt revealed this idea to you and that you are a prophet?

Did you read the word "prophet" anywhere in my words?