doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Nah. Since life is a meaningless void full of desperation and despair ending in nothing, why bother?
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11 Questions
- Thread starter Papersock
- Start date
Nah. Since life is a meaningless void full of desperation and despair ending in nothing, why bother?
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
doppelgänger;819767 said:
Precisely.
Nanda
Polyanna
Yeah... We should really be more productive. I know! Let's all start harrassing theists!
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Yeah... We should really be more productive. I know! Let's all start harrassing theists!
d.
_______
Aasimar
Atheist
That's amazing! A bunch of crap in the book is fulfilled later on in the same book! And none of it can be proven conclusively. I'm convinced, sign me up. Are these people serious.
- Only a supernatural God would be capable of knowing and revealing the future with 100% accuracy, time after time, in hundreds and hundreds of instances.
- Thats exactly what the Bible does. Therefore,
- The Bible is Gods Word.
bluestone
New Member
"If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd , why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?" Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There
Is there a better point in dying? We were born. So now let's live.
If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
Who says it's meaningless? Life is beautiful, and though my life today might not have a meaning 10 billion years from now, it does have meaning now, to me and hopefully to those around me.
Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
Well, obviously with no universe we wouldn't be here either, since we exist in the universe. Anyway, what difference does the universe make on God? The universe doesn't need God to exist, nor does it show any evidence that God does exist.
In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
Intelligence, social habits, etc. This is assuming that God and immortality are everything, and they are not.
What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
We are not just sophisticated, programmed machines. We are thinking, feeling beings, who have free will, and we need justice and laws to provide structure for life. This makes it sound like without God there is no justice and no law, and that's completely untrue.
Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
What difference does it make what it comes to? They mean something now, to the people who are experiencing them. And these things affect people years after the fact- research provides new information, cures for disease. Art and music are things that are enjoyed centuries after they were written or painted or whatever, centuries after even the maker is nothing but worm food. And so on.
Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
What? This is assuming that people who don't have God don't have morals.
If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted? (Dostoyevsky)
Because not all things are right.
If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
Well, people generally desire to leave in peace and without suffering, and those practices do not generally lead to peace or to and end for suffering. Still what right do we have to interfere to begin with?
If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
In people, of course. We do not need God to provide those things. Any one of us can have a sense of what is fair and not fair. Any one of us can provide comfort. Any one of us can strive to make this world better, and we do not need God to do it. The question assumes that God is the only provider of such things.
Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
Now we're a miscarraige of nature? Our lives are futile, pointless, and meaningless? I really love how the question is phrased to make a person feel like their life is bad or wrong or unnatural because it doesn't have God in it. Personally, I don't feel like I am a miscarraige of nature. I don't feel like my life is futile, pointless, or meaningless. I feel like I am here to love and be loved, to laugh, to learn, and to grow- and I don't need God to do any of that.
Is there a better point in dying? We were born. So now let's live.
If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
Who says it's meaningless? Life is beautiful, and though my life today might not have a meaning 10 billion years from now, it does have meaning now, to me and hopefully to those around me.
Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
Well, obviously with no universe we wouldn't be here either, since we exist in the universe. Anyway, what difference does the universe make on God? The universe doesn't need God to exist, nor does it show any evidence that God does exist.
In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
Intelligence, social habits, etc. This is assuming that God and immortality are everything, and they are not.
What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
We are not just sophisticated, programmed machines. We are thinking, feeling beings, who have free will, and we need justice and laws to provide structure for life. This makes it sound like without God there is no justice and no law, and that's completely untrue.
Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
What difference does it make what it comes to? They mean something now, to the people who are experiencing them. And these things affect people years after the fact- research provides new information, cures for disease. Art and music are things that are enjoyed centuries after they were written or painted or whatever, centuries after even the maker is nothing but worm food. And so on.
Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
What? This is assuming that people who don't have God don't have morals.
If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted? (Dostoyevsky)
Because not all things are right.
If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
Well, people generally desire to leave in peace and without suffering, and those practices do not generally lead to peace or to and end for suffering. Still what right do we have to interfere to begin with?
If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
In people, of course. We do not need God to provide those things. Any one of us can have a sense of what is fair and not fair. Any one of us can provide comfort. Any one of us can strive to make this world better, and we do not need God to do it. The question assumes that God is the only provider of such things.
Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
Now we're a miscarraige of nature? Our lives are futile, pointless, and meaningless? I really love how the question is phrased to make a person feel like their life is bad or wrong or unnatural because it doesn't have God in it. Personally, I don't feel like I am a miscarraige of nature. I don't feel like my life is futile, pointless, or meaningless. I feel like I am here to love and be loved, to laugh, to learn, and to grow- and I don't need God to do any of that.
After reading the questions, I've become alarmed over the spiritual health of my Acme Latex Love Doll.
It seems to me she is decidely agnositc -- not just on questions of deity, but on everything. That's to say, she doesn't have an opinion about anything.
Does that mean she's suffering from existential despair? Does it mean she's lost in despair? Should I take her to church?
What about taking her to a meeting of the Freethinkers?
It seems to me she is decidely agnositc -- not just on questions of deity, but on everything. That's to say, she doesn't have an opinion about anything.
Does that mean she's suffering from existential despair? Does it mean she's lost in despair? Should I take her to church?
What about taking her to a meeting of the Freethinkers?
Slightly Perfect
oxymoronic paradox
Ooh, I like this!
“If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd, why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?" —Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There
Life is inherently meaningless. There is no divine purpose for humanity nor for anything else in existence. There is no inherently right or wrong act, thought, or thing. We, as humans, have consciousness, which lends us to be not only part of the universe but also observers of it. As a result, the value and meaning of anything/anyone is what the observer chooses to give it. Why continue? Because as a collective, and because we desire quality survival, it is up to us to manifest such a society and culture.
If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
There is no significance.
Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form [sic] God, what ultimate difference would that make?
None.
In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
Evolution has endowed humanity with empathy, reason, and language. This is how we are different. It is this consciousness of personal responsibility that holds us accountable (both to ourselves and each other) for our actions.
What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
Whatever humanity chooses to construct based on its collective and individual principles and objectives is the base of human morality.
Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
All of these inherently mean nothing, but to each observer, they can mean everything.
Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
What poor examples they use to make this point! However, I don’t think I can answer this because I’m not sure what they mean by using the term “ultimate.” There are plenty of superficial and moral differences between the two, but I’m not sure about “ultimate.”
If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
Anything can be permitted as long as it occurs within the confines of our social contract and human-constructed morality. However, since they mention Dostoyevsky, I’m assuming they want me to answer this quote:
I talk about this at length here. But, to answer briefly:
Humanity knows human nature insofar as its observations and judgments are concerned. Of course, observation and judgment are not the same, yet we often see other humans manipulating their observations into judgments and calling that objectivity. Humanity, however, does not know God’s nature, and thus can assign characteristics to God in any way it pleases. Humanity can use books, beliefs, past experience/tradition, and rituals as a way to defend their religious positions and their created deities.
So, it stands to reason then that if God exists (in the minds of people), everything is still permitted since we can create God how we like. Until this god shows us differently, humanity needs to work under the assumption that this god is nothing more than a superstition that arose out of our species’ infancy.
If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
Social pragmatism dictates (and humanity as a collective instinctually knows) the above are not moral simply because the above lack empathy. We “interfere” (for a horrid way to put it) with cultures that practice such rituals because they are not only against the objective of quality survival, but they also are not necessary to the human species. It is immoral to murder, immoral to harm, etc. Humanity should not need a deity to tell it that.
If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
My hope rests in humanity and in my own capabilities as a human being.
Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
A creator is not needed to transfer and dictate meaning. Observers are. The creator god is one construct that creates meaning, but humans, which are real, also create and give meaning. That’s the nature of observation and judgment.
“If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd, why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?" —Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There
Life is inherently meaningless. There is no divine purpose for humanity nor for anything else in existence. There is no inherently right or wrong act, thought, or thing. We, as humans, have consciousness, which lends us to be not only part of the universe but also observers of it. As a result, the value and meaning of anything/anyone is what the observer chooses to give it. Why continue? Because as a collective, and because we desire quality survival, it is up to us to manifest such a society and culture.
If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
There is no significance.
Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form [sic] God, what ultimate difference would that make?
None.
In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
Evolution has endowed humanity with empathy, reason, and language. This is how we are different. It is this consciousness of personal responsibility that holds us accountable (both to ourselves and each other) for our actions.
What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
Whatever humanity chooses to construct based on its collective and individual principles and objectives is the base of human morality.
Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
All of these inherently mean nothing, but to each observer, they can mean everything.
Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
What poor examples they use to make this point! However, I don’t think I can answer this because I’m not sure what they mean by using the term “ultimate.” There are plenty of superficial and moral differences between the two, but I’m not sure about “ultimate.”
If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
Anything can be permitted as long as it occurs within the confines of our social contract and human-constructed morality. However, since they mention Dostoyevsky, I’m assuming they want me to answer this quote:
I talk about this at length here. But, to answer briefly:
Humanity knows human nature insofar as its observations and judgments are concerned. Of course, observation and judgment are not the same, yet we often see other humans manipulating their observations into judgments and calling that objectivity. Humanity, however, does not know God’s nature, and thus can assign characteristics to God in any way it pleases. Humanity can use books, beliefs, past experience/tradition, and rituals as a way to defend their religious positions and their created deities.
So, it stands to reason then that if God exists (in the minds of people), everything is still permitted since we can create God how we like. Until this god shows us differently, humanity needs to work under the assumption that this god is nothing more than a superstition that arose out of our species’ infancy.
If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
Social pragmatism dictates (and humanity as a collective instinctually knows) the above are not moral simply because the above lack empathy. We “interfere” (for a horrid way to put it) with cultures that practice such rituals because they are not only against the objective of quality survival, but they also are not necessary to the human species. It is immoral to murder, immoral to harm, etc. Humanity should not need a deity to tell it that.
If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
My hope rests in humanity and in my own capabilities as a human being.
Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
A creator is not needed to transfer and dictate meaning. Observers are. The creator god is one construct that creates meaning, but humans, which are real, also create and give meaning. That’s the nature of observation and judgment.
darkpenguin
Charismatic Enigma
1. "If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd , why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?" Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There
Because I respect my mother enough to not terminate this life and body that she has given me and because I like to think that I make people happy!
2. If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
To have fun and enjoy it while we are here. The future I can't control but the here and now I have some bearing on and I'm fine with that, it makes life more fun!
3. Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
Is this a trick question???
4. In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
Not really that different apart from being more sociable and intelligent. Oh and I've never seen a pig ordering a beer.
5. What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
Because it's nice to be nice. I wouldn't treat someone differently to how i'd like to be treated (unless that person was Wayne Rooney).
6. Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
Because life would be bloody boring without them.
7.Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
I'm not even going to dignify that question with an answer.
I do wonder who Billy Graham is though? I had a boss once with the same name!
8. If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
Meh, you're not even trying anymore!
9. If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
As above!
10. If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
Read above!
11. Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
I'm just a cell that part of a larger organism and I'm fine with that.
Sorry for my lack of in depth answers but that was just silly and pointless and made my head hurt lol
Because I respect my mother enough to not terminate this life and body that she has given me and because I like to think that I make people happy!
2. If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
To have fun and enjoy it while we are here. The future I can't control but the here and now I have some bearing on and I'm fine with that, it makes life more fun!
3. Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
Is this a trick question???
4. In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
Not really that different apart from being more sociable and intelligent. Oh and I've never seen a pig ordering a beer.
5. What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
Because it's nice to be nice. I wouldn't treat someone differently to how i'd like to be treated (unless that person was Wayne Rooney).
6. Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
Because life would be bloody boring without them.
7.Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
I'm not even going to dignify that question with an answer.
I do wonder who Billy Graham is though? I had a boss once with the same name!
8. If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
Meh, you're not even trying anymore!
9. If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
As above!
10. If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
Read above!
11. Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
I'm just a cell that part of a larger organism and I'm fine with that.
Sorry for my lack of in depth answers but that was just silly and pointless and made my head hurt lol
1. "If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd , why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?" —Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There
Well for starters life is not meaningless. Our consciousness prevents it from being meaningless. Humans find meaning, it is just what we do. The natural beauty of a sunset can leave you in awe regardless of your belief in some intelligence behind it. Just because something occurs due to a natural process does not render it meaningless. Take a hurricane for instance, its origins may be natural and "meaningless" but would you call it's effects meaningless? Meaning is defined by those who experience it. As for marching forward, I'm not sure what this means really. But in any case I feel progression makes everyone's life that much more enjoyable. Many cultures "march forward" in many different ways.
2. If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
Again with the meaninglessness? Well I don't really see how not being immortal makes all historical events meaningless. I will propose an answer nonetheless. Regardless of our origin, even atheists recognize that the human capacity for cognition, emotion, and the finding of meaning is special. The meaning of life is the meaning you find in life. I believe this gives the meaning that much more significance because you yourself searched it out and reconciled it. You affect those around you and should take meaning in the people you care about and the goals you wish to accomplish. Atheism ≠ Nihilism.
3. Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
Besides all the art, beauty, and meaning humans have derived? Nothing.
4. In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
Can pigs write music? Paint a painting? Can pigs travel into outer space? Can pigs come up with the idea of a God or immortality?
Anyway, I think there are plenty of things that make us special.
5. What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
Well logic is in the "programmed machine" (for some of us). So is altruism - it aides our survival. Am I to derive from this that the only reason theists don't rampantly break the law and forgo justice is because big brother is up there keeping tabs? Wouldn't that be like saying the only reason not to commit rape, murder, or theft is because you're going to go to jail?
6. Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
Isn't all the research, discovery, diplomacy, art, and music going to come to naught when the worthy are raptured into heaven? If this world is just a testing ground, then all of our research and discovery is meaningless when compared to the divine understanding gained after we pass from this world into the next.
As for sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, and caring relationships - how are these meaningless? They all hold deep meaning to me and just about every non-theist I've encountered. The meaning is what you derive from all of this - it is the reason you do those things. Sacrifices which are done on someone's own accord and not as a ticket to heaven are more meaningful to me.
7.Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
Some Gods say it is immoral to eat lobster. Some say that moral justice is to remove a thief's hand. Some say it's immoral to worship other, more tempting deities. Some say jealousy is immoral.
People who I would consider "good" come from many different moral backgrounds. As for the common denominators among the major Gods, I think those are derived through logic, reason, and humanity's altruistic nature.
The difference between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham is their impact on humanity and the lesson's learned from them.
8. If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
Technically, all things are permitted....you just might end up getting punished for some of them. Wouldn't this be better stated as "why should some things be punished?"
Anyway logic and reason can whisk this question away. I can find plenty of reasons why murder shouldn't be permitted that have absolutely nothing to do with immortality.
9. If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
This question is kind of shooting itself in the foot.
Most of these horrific examples are carried out for religious reasons. In fact they show why we shouldn't derive our morality from religion. Morality should be derived from our ability to reason and the knowledge we have obtained.
10. If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
I'm a lot happier I'm alive now and not in the 1300's. Society will progress regardless of God's existence. Even with God standing in the way (gay marriage) society will still progress towards fairness, equality, and better times.
11. Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
All those excessive adjectives make my life all the more special. All the more reason to appreciate it.
Well for starters life is not meaningless. Our consciousness prevents it from being meaningless. Humans find meaning, it is just what we do. The natural beauty of a sunset can leave you in awe regardless of your belief in some intelligence behind it. Just because something occurs due to a natural process does not render it meaningless. Take a hurricane for instance, its origins may be natural and "meaningless" but would you call it's effects meaningless? Meaning is defined by those who experience it. As for marching forward, I'm not sure what this means really. But in any case I feel progression makes everyone's life that much more enjoyable. Many cultures "march forward" in many different ways.
2. If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
Again with the meaninglessness? Well I don't really see how not being immortal makes all historical events meaningless. I will propose an answer nonetheless. Regardless of our origin, even atheists recognize that the human capacity for cognition, emotion, and the finding of meaning is special. The meaning of life is the meaning you find in life. I believe this gives the meaning that much more significance because you yourself searched it out and reconciled it. You affect those around you and should take meaning in the people you care about and the goals you wish to accomplish. Atheism ≠ Nihilism.
3. Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
Besides all the art, beauty, and meaning humans have derived? Nothing.
4. In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
Can pigs write music? Paint a painting? Can pigs travel into outer space? Can pigs come up with the idea of a God or immortality?
Anyway, I think there are plenty of things that make us special.
5. What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
Well logic is in the "programmed machine" (for some of us
). So is altruism - it aides our survival. Am I to derive from this that the only reason theists don't rampantly break the law and forgo justice is because big brother is up there keeping tabs? Wouldn't that be like saying the only reason not to commit rape, murder, or theft is because you're going to go to jail?6. Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
Isn't all the research, discovery, diplomacy, art, and music going to come to naught when the worthy are raptured into heaven? If this world is just a testing ground, then all of our research and discovery is meaningless when compared to the divine understanding gained after we pass from this world into the next.
As for sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, and caring relationships - how are these meaningless? They all hold deep meaning to me and just about every non-theist I've encountered. The meaning is what you derive from all of this - it is the reason you do those things. Sacrifices which are done on someone's own accord and not as a ticket to heaven are more meaningful to me.
7.Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
Some Gods say it is immoral to eat lobster. Some say that moral justice is to remove a thief's hand. Some say it's immoral to worship other, more tempting deities. Some say jealousy is immoral.
People who I would consider "good" come from many different moral backgrounds. As for the common denominators among the major Gods, I think those are derived through logic, reason, and humanity's altruistic nature.
The difference between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham is their impact on humanity and the lesson's learned from them.
8. If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
Technically, all things are permitted....you just might end up getting punished for some of them. Wouldn't this be better stated as "why should some things be punished?"
Anyway logic and reason can whisk this question away. I can find plenty of reasons why murder shouldn't be permitted that have absolutely nothing to do with immortality.
9. If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
This question is kind of shooting itself in the foot.
Most of these horrific examples are carried out for religious reasons. In fact they show why we shouldn't derive our morality from religion. Morality should be derived from our ability to reason and the knowledge we have obtained.
10. If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
I'm a lot happier I'm alive now and not in the 1300's. Society will progress regardless of God's existence. Even with God standing in the way (gay marriage) society will still progress towards fairness, equality, and better times.
11. Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
All those excessive adjectives make my life all the more special. All the more reason to appreciate it.
Namaste
Member
Quoted for awesome.
Indeed, this drama queen asks the same question again and again expecting a different answer. This is the definition of insanity. I much prefer to live my life--this life that I KNOW I have--fully and richly while I can, than to place my bets on some silly fairy tale. It'd be nice if the questioner would wake up and live his life but, you know what? I don't care.
naturalphilosophy
Member
1. "If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd , why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?" Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There
what makes you think my life is meaningless without god, i am happy to exist whether it is natural forces or supernatural, i need no fairy tales to satisfy me.
2. If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
i see life as experience, death does not concern me for i will not be experiencing it.
3. Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
i wouldnt know i wouldnt exist
4. In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
we have evolved higher than that, and there are many benefits to that as well, just because there is no god dosent mean i have no morals.
5. What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
the now.
6. Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
becuase i exist now and want to experience those things now.
7.Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
it effects reality, the future and the now.
8. If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
immortality dosent make a good person, 80 percent of america is christian is it good? no.
9. If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
becuase those cause harm to us, taking away from the enjoyment of life
10. If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
human morals
11. Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
i live in the now, i experience the now, thats the point, i dont care about an afterlife man, jeez get with the program lol.
what makes you think my life is meaningless without god, i am happy to exist whether it is natural forces or supernatural, i need no fairy tales to satisfy me.
2. If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
i see life as experience, death does not concern me for i will not be experiencing it.
3. Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
i wouldnt know i wouldnt exist
4. In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
we have evolved higher than that, and there are many benefits to that as well, just because there is no god dosent mean i have no morals.
5. What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
the now.
6. Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
becuase i exist now and want to experience those things now.
7.Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
it effects reality, the future and the now.
8. If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
immortality dosent make a good person, 80 percent of america is christian is it good? no.
9. If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
becuase those cause harm to us, taking away from the enjoyment of life
10. If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
human morals
11. Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
i live in the now, i experience the now, thats the point, i dont care about an afterlife man, jeez get with the program lol.
Darkness
Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Who is to say all life is meaningless and ultimately absurd. I and most Atheists never claim this. Life is full of wonder and enjoyment.
Merely because life is finite does not make it meaningless. Consider a book. We read and enjoy books, yet they ultimately come to an end. Are we to say that all books (that would include the Bible, Qur'an, etc.) are meaningless? It is about the journey and experience; so is life.
It is an ultimate difference of existence and non-existence.
We are different because we walk upright, think on a higher level, and have a higher capacity for emotion.
The majority of us want lives where we can live life in peace and evolve as people. When someone disrupts this shared goal, we deal with him.
"Are you telling me, that the only reason you don't steal and rape... and murder, is that you're frightened of God?" -- Richard Dawkins
Read my response to Question 2.
Billy Graham is kind and loves people whereas Saddam Hussein hates many people.
"Are you telling me, that the only reason you don't steal and rape... and murder, is that you're frightened of God?" -- Richard Dawkins
Who is to say morality is a relative social construct. Morality is a personal manifestation of the will. My will and many peoples wills want to see people live happy lives. We will fight those who are malevolent.
Who is to say life is fair? Why does it have to be? Merely because I do not believe everything is peaches and cream (perfect) does not make my belief system any less valid. You wish the Universe is perfect and choose to believe it is.
I have accepted that we exist without a predefined purpose. That is why we make our own purpose. We love, we laugh, we enjoy ourselves. What is meaningless about that?
Mr Spinkles
Mr
I like Zeno's answers too.1. "If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd , why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?" —Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There
Well for starters life is not meaningless. Our consciousness prevents it from being meaningless. Humans find meaning, it is just what we do. The natural beauty of a sunset can leave you in awe regardless of your belief in some intelligence behind it. Just because something occurs due to a natural process does not render it meaningless. Take a hurricane for instance, its origins may be natural and "meaningless" but would you call it's effects meaningless? Meaning is defined by those who experience it. As for marching forward, I'm not sure what this means really. But in any case I feel progression makes everyone's life that much more enjoyable. Many cultures "march forward" in many different ways.
2. If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
Again with the meaninglessness? Well I don't really see how not being immortal makes all historical events meaningless. I will propose an answer nonetheless. Regardless of our origin, even atheists recognize that the human capacity for cognition, emotion, and the finding of meaning is special. The meaning of life is the meaning you find in life. I believe this gives the meaning that much more significance because you yourself searched it out and reconciled it. You affect those around you and should take meaning in the people you care about and the goals you wish to accomplish. Atheism ≠ Nihilism.
3. Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
Besides all the art, beauty, and meaning humans have derived? Nothing.
4. In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
Can pigs write music? Paint a painting? Can pigs travel into outer space? Can pigs come up with the idea of a God or immortality?
Anyway, I think there are plenty of things that make us special.
5. What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
Well logic is in the "programmed machine" (for some of us
6. Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
Isn't all the research, discovery, diplomacy, art, and music going to come to naught when the worthy are raptured into heaven? If this world is just a testing ground, then all of our research and discovery is meaningless when compared to the divine understanding gained after we pass from this world into the next.
As for sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, and caring relationships - how are these meaningless? They all hold deep meaning to me and just about every non-theist I've encountered. The meaning is what you derive from all of this - it is the reason you do those things. Sacrifices which are done on someone's own accord and not as a ticket to heaven are more meaningful to me.
7.Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
Some Gods say it is immoral to eat lobster. Some say that moral justice is to remove a thief's hand. Some say it's immoral to worship other, more tempting deities. Some say jealousy is immoral.
People who I would consider "good" come from many different moral backgrounds. As for the common denominators among the major Gods, I think those are derived through logic, reason, and humanity's altruistic nature.
The difference between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham is their impact on humanity and the lesson's learned from them.
8. If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
Technically, all things are permitted....you just might end up getting punished for some of them. Wouldn't this be better stated as "why should some things be punished?"
Anyway logic and reason can whisk this question away. I can find plenty of reasons why murder shouldn't be permitted that have absolutely nothing to do with immortality.
9. If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
This question is kind of shooting itself in the foot.
Most of these horrific examples are carried out for religious reasons. In fact they show why we shouldn't derive our morality from religion. Morality should be derived from our ability to reason and the knowledge we have obtained.
10. If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
I'm a lot happier I'm alive now and not in the 1300's. Society will progress regardless of God's existence. Even with God standing in the way (gay marriage) society will still progress towards fairness, equality, and better times.
11. Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
All those excessive adjectives make my life all the more special. All the more reason to appreciate it.
Wow. GREAT insights. Very well said!! :bow:
eudaimonia
Fellowship of Reason
1. "If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd , why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?" —Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There
I don't believe that all of life is meaningless and ultimately absurd. I may be a naturalist, but I'm a eudaimonist, not an existentialist.
As I see it, our flourishing (or self-actualization or "happiness") as human beings is naturally choiceworthy. While we choose our purposes, some purposes matter more to our existence (or natural function) as living human beings than others, and therefore naturally lend themselves to being chosen.
We may be responsible for creating meaning in our lives, but our nature as human beings makes this non-arbitrary and life non-absurd.
2. If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
Life is an end-in-itself, not an endless series of means to an unattainable infinite future. The importance of life is life, every moment, every day.
Death may even make life more precious to us, since we esteem too little what is in infinite supply.
3. Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
The difference between one's existence and non-existence is the ultimate difference. It is a difference that surpasses any whim or opinion. This is another reason why life (our existence) matters to us in a non-arbitrary way.
Thank you for making my case for me.
4. In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
We are human beings, not mosquitoes or pigs. We are the rational animal, who creates skyscrapers, symphonies, space shuttles, science, societies... and that's just counting a few words that begin with "s"!
5. What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
Do you mean as opposed to animated mud or ribs?
We are self-directed, self-actualizing beings. The viable basis for law is the creation of a society that respects these facts.
6. Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
Life is an end-in-itself. It matters because it matters NOW.
7.Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
I believe that there is a natural standard to ethical evaluation.
8. If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
Precisely because there is no immortality. Immortals don't have to worry about hurting each other, because they cannot destroy each other. Mortals have a need for concern for morality.
9. If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
I'm not a moral relativist.
10. If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
Human well-being is that basis.
11. Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
This is what I call the fallacy of inappropriate vantagepoint. The only vantagepoint that matters to me is my own as a living human being. You are asking me to take a "cosmic" vantagepoint that means nothing to me.
eudaimonia,
Mark
I don't believe that all of life is meaningless and ultimately absurd. I may be a naturalist, but I'm a eudaimonist, not an existentialist.
As I see it, our flourishing (or self-actualization or "happiness") as human beings is naturally choiceworthy. While we choose our purposes, some purposes matter more to our existence (or natural function) as living human beings than others, and therefore naturally lend themselves to being chosen.
We may be responsible for creating meaning in our lives, but our nature as human beings makes this non-arbitrary and life non-absurd.
2. If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
Life is an end-in-itself, not an endless series of means to an unattainable infinite future. The importance of life is life, every moment, every day.
Death may even make life more precious to us, since we esteem too little what is in infinite supply.
3. Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
The difference between one's existence and non-existence is the ultimate difference. It is a difference that surpasses any whim or opinion. This is another reason why life (our existence) matters to us in a non-arbitrary way.
Thank you for making my case for me.
4. In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
We are human beings, not mosquitoes or pigs. We are the rational animal, who creates skyscrapers, symphonies, space shuttles, science, societies... and that's just counting a few words that begin with "s"!
5. What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
Do you mean as opposed to animated mud or ribs?
We are self-directed, self-actualizing beings. The viable basis for law is the creation of a society that respects these facts.
6. Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
Life is an end-in-itself. It matters because it matters NOW.
7.Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
I believe that there is a natural standard to ethical evaluation.
8. If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
Precisely because there is no immortality. Immortals don't have to worry about hurting each other, because they cannot destroy each other. Mortals have a need for concern for morality.
9. If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
I'm not a moral relativist.
10. If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
Human well-being is that basis.
11. Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
This is what I call the fallacy of inappropriate vantagepoint. The only vantagepoint that matters to me is my own as a living human being. You are asking me to take a "cosmic" vantagepoint that means nothing to me.
eudaimonia,
Mark
giant space amoeba
Member
(all of the following answers do not represent all of Atheist kind - also i haven't looked at the other answers yet!)
"If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd , why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?" Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There
I don't think it does make sense but i can make as much sense as i can out of it and try to (not always succesfully) enjoy it. I make my own purpose, after all i was born and i exist, better make something out of it.
If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
None really, there is no point. No ultimte point anyway. I thnk we can make our own meaning. Now if only the meaning we made for ourselves did not tread on those other meanings people made out of their lives.
Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
Uh? Well none - the universe... wouldn't have existed... (strange question)
In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
Are you implying a moral universe without god? (sorry thats the impression your wording gave me). Well i guess none - but you make those other animals seem like the lowest of the low when they are not really. I guess the behavioral patterns of humans make us different from the other animals - same with the mosquitos compared to the pigs. They are each different (however we have more in common with the pigs).
What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
First your wording is utterly wrong - why if i was a theist of some sort i would have beleived that god programmed us like a machine!So "justice" and "moral law" would have been programmes for us to follow.
Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
again i beleive none. However we have drives that lead us to these. There is an evolutionary behavior basis for all of these which i think had to do with communication and carrying on with our lives and aside from that, enjoying ourselves to help us give meaning to this existance.
Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
They are both human beings (or were) both with feelings the difference is the life paths they followed due to environmental and genetic factors.
If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
ROFL! Imagine that no immorality! Well im going to assume you meant "if there was no morality":
When we are born most of us discover (at one point or another) that in fact there are other beings on this planet, some like us and more NOT like us. I think morality comes into place from a conceot called ethics. I think ethics came about because we realised not only are some beings like us but they in some degree or another have feelings like we do. This bought into being the possibility because of this everybody deserved the same chances in life.You don't need a god for morality just a basic understanding of empathy and compassion.
If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
God doesnt exist and it seems that sometimes we are doing fine. Human nature being as it is life is never going to be "perfect". But when things do get happy for us we do recognise this. Like i say we make our own basis. We knows what we like and what we donts like and really as long as those activities doesnt harm people (unless they are willing) or get in the way of those peoples lives (again unless they are willing) then what is the problem?
Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
While the idea that no god brings out a negative image for you it doesnt for me. Personaly though im an atheist (little bit more than weak but not 100% strong)i can say about creation is that i don't care if a god made it or not. Some of it is stunning (from my relative point of view) i appreciate nature and i may not always appreciate my life (which has nothing to do with my atheism) i can still see beauty (and with this as existence is a balance, i can see what is perceived to be ugly).
There is much more to me point of view and the meaning i have given existence but i won't discuss that here.
"If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd , why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?" Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There
I don't think it does make sense but i can make as much sense as i can out of it and try to (not always succesfully) enjoy it. I make my own purpose, after all i was born and i exist, better make something out of it.
If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
None really, there is no point. No ultimte point anyway. I thnk we can make our own meaning. Now if only the meaning we made for ourselves did not tread on those other meanings people made out of their lives.
Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
Uh? Well none - the universe... wouldn't have existed...
(strange question)In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
Are you implying a moral universe without god? (sorry thats the impression your wording gave me). Well i guess none - but you make those other animals seem like the lowest of the low when they are not really. I guess the behavioral patterns of humans make us different from the other animals - same with the mosquitos compared to the pigs. They are each different (however we have more in common with the pigs).
What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
First your wording is utterly wrong - why if i was a theist of some sort i would have beleived that god programmed us like a machine!So "justice" and "moral law" would have been programmes for us to follow.
Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
again i beleive none. However we have drives that lead us to these. There is an evolutionary behavior basis for all of these which i think had to do with communication and carrying on with our lives and aside from that, enjoying ourselves to help us give meaning to this existance.
Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
They are both human beings (or were) both with feelings the difference is the life paths they followed due to environmental and genetic factors.
If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
ROFL! Imagine that no immorality! Well im going to assume you meant "if there was no morality":
When we are born most of us discover (at one point or another) that in fact there are other beings on this planet, some like us and more NOT like us. I think morality comes into place from a conceot called ethics. I think ethics came about because we realised not only are some beings like us but they in some degree or another have feelings like we do. This bought into being the possibility because of this everybody deserved the same chances in life.You don't need a god for morality just a basic understanding of empathy and compassion.
If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
God doesnt exist and it seems that sometimes we are doing fine. Human nature being as it is life is never going to be "perfect". But when things do get happy for us we do recognise this. Like i say we make our own basis. We knows what we like and what we donts like and really as long as those activities doesnt harm people (unless they are willing) or get in the way of those peoples lives (again unless they are willing) then what is the problem?
Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
While the idea that no god brings out a negative image for you it doesnt for me. Personaly though im an atheist (little bit more than weak but not 100% strong)i can say about creation is that i don't care if a god made it or not. Some of it is stunning (from my relative point of view) i appreciate nature and i may not always appreciate my life (which has nothing to do with my atheism) i can still see beauty (and with this as existence is a balance, i can see what is perceived to be ugly).
There is much more to me point of view and the meaning i have given existence but i won't discuss that here.