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10 killed in Buffalo, NY store shooting!

Should high-capacity magazines of civilian firearms be banned?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 28 70.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 9 22.5%
  • Maybe/Don't Know.

    Votes: 3 7.5%

  • Total voters
    40

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
A nuclear warhead is an arm, but no Second Amendment advocate is complaining about civilians not having legal access to them. It's obviously an extreme example, but it does illustrate that a line is drawn somewhere. So where?


Where is going to depend upon the time that one lives in. The mass shootings are bad enough, but they are nothing compared to the everyday homicides with guns. Both could be solved if some of the legal loopholes no longer existed.. Let's keep things largely as they are. Support the Second Amendment and all that. If a person is not a felon as long as one is not facing mental or criminal issues owning a gun should not be a problem. What we need to do is to cut down on guns that end up in criminal hands. Granted, we will not be able to eliminate all of them. But the we can't eliminate all of them attitude only guarantees a glut of guns on the market. Stolen firearms are often sold rather cheaply since the person that stole almost never wants it and if he has a record it is just another charge. If guns were harder to steal the number of stolen guns would go down. Think of how many cars would be stolen if anyone could hop in a car and drive off. It is not that bad with guns, but you do not need a key to start a gun.

So proposition one, no buying guns unless the owner has a safe place to store it. One cannot force him to use it but one cannot use a gun safe that does not exist.

Proposition two, for hand guns especially one needs to be properly screened before one can own one. Once again tp satisfy our Second Amendment supporters is that only mental illness or a criminal history or on going case (if one just got charged with domestic violence gun ownership would be banned at least temporarily) would stop someone from buying a gun. Second felons of non-violent crimes would need a legal pathway to re-earn the right to own a weapon. If one was in a nonviolent crime and could show that one had reformed gun ownership should be possible again.

Proposition three, no person to person sales. It will raise the price but all sales would have to go through a dealership to make sure that these laws were followed.

That would minimize cases like the one that @F1fan mentioned. Anything else? Any objections? Places like this can be sources or at least aids to new legislation.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It's pathetic how America went from "we do these things because they are hard" to throwing in the towel and proclaiming nothing but more guns can solve the gun problem. All the while the rest of the world that took care of their gun problems, well, they took care of them amd this "but criminals don't care" just hasn't played out.

We may have to wean ourselves off of our gun dependence.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What does that have to do with this shooting?

The shooter drove (with his guns) from Conklin, NY to Buffalo to do the shooting. Those guns are from nowhere near Buffalo.

The shooter is already on the Wiki page for that town. I see that it is right next to Pennsylvania. If a gun was legal in Penn but illegal in New York he would have no problem getting one. That is just one more reason that a national standard is needed. Just like with cars. We don't have different regulations for cars in Minnesota and Wisconsin. Why should we have different state regulations for guns?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I recently made a comparison thread between abortion and vaccination. Do I have to make another one about guns and abortion.
"Criminals don't care" - Yep. Banning abortions doesn't get get rid of abortion, only save abortions.
"Don't take away my rights!" - Exactly.
"Abortion is killing innocent babies." - Yep. And guns are used to kill innocent people.
"First it's only high capacity magazines but it ends in all guns." - Yep. First it's only "before [insert arbitrary time frame]" but it ends in banning contraception.

Every argument the gun nuts bring to their defence is also an argument for women's rights. If you are pro gun and anti abortion, you should rethink one of your positions, maybe both.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Perhaps most of us can agree to effectively ban the private ownership of high-capacity magazines used in the firearms of mass shooters,
We need to stop lots of things, especially those things that change a human being, born as a child of God (Divine Being), into such a monster.

And especially we have to look at what lacks in our society nowadays
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
[QUOTE="Heyo, post: 7685765, member: 67118]"Abortion is killing innocent babies." - Yep. And guns are used to kill innocent people.
[/QUOTE]
That is apples and oranges. The sole reason for abortion is to kill the baby. A gun’s purpose is not to kill anyone.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
When are you people going to realize that those that perpetrate the crime are the problem not the firearm.
Probably never, so why should I waste my time trying to convince you.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
When are you people going to realize that those that perpetrate the crime are the problem not the firearm.
Probably never, so why should I waste my time trying to convince you.
Hey - feel free to answer my question from earlier:

The border between Canada and the US is more open than your border with Mexico.

St. Catharines, Ontario is near Buffalo, about as far west of the Niagara River as Buffalo is east. The median household income in both cities is well below the national average.

The homicide rate in St. Catharines is 1.0 per year per 100,000. The homicide rate in Buffalo is 24.0 per year per 100,000.

How do you explain this major difference?

Personally, I think it comes down mostly to stricter firearm laws on our side of the border; apparently you disagree... so what do you think is causing the murder rate in Buffalo to be so much higher than this other nearby city?
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Right.

And my point was that the most effective way of getting, say, large capacity magazines out of the black market - or at least make them so expensive that they're out of reach for most criminals - is to make their sale or possession illegal.

Anything that is expensive is now easy to make monthly payments on, so basically anyone can have anything they want if they don't mind making payments for years on end.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Ten people today were massacred by a mass shooter at a Tops Markets Grocery Store on Jefferson Avenue in Buffalo, New York. The 18-year-old white male gunman livestreamed onto a social media platform his hate crime killing of black people. He surrendered and was taken into custody at the scene of the crime. Most everybody in America is fed up with this repeated mass shooting gun violence. High-capacity magazines of the firearms used by mass shooters enable them to massacre multiple people within a matter of seconds. Perhaps most of us can agree to effectively ban the private ownership of high-capacity magazines used in the firearms of mass shooters,
I cannot see how that would be possible in a gun culture such as this, but in my opinion we should have gun laws like Japan.

Compare/contrast gun laws in Japan to the United States.

Japan has almost completely eliminated gun deaths — here's how
  • Japan is a country of more than 127 million people, but it rarely sees more than 10 gun deaths a year.
  • Culture is one reason for the low rate, but gun control is a major one, too.
  • Japan has a long list of tests that applicants must pass before gaining access to a small pool of guns.
Japan has almost completely eliminated gun deaths — here's how

The weapons law of Japan begins by stating "No one shall possess a firearm or firearms or a sword or swords", and very few exceptions are allowed. Citizens are permitted to possess firearms for hunting and sport shooting, but only after submitting to a lengthy licensing procedure.

Overview of gun laws by nation - Wikipedia

“The only guns that Japanese citizens can legally buy and use are shotguns and air rifles, and it’s not easy to do. The process is detailed in David Kopel’s landmark study on Japanese gun control, published in the 1993 Asia Pacific Law Review, still cited as current. (Kopel, no left-wing loony, is a member of the National Rifle Association and once wrote in National Review that looser gun control laws could have stopped Adolf Hitler.)

To get a gun in Japan, first, you have to attend an all-day class and pass a written test, which are held only once per month. You also must take and pass a shooting range class. Then, head over to a hospital for a mental test and drug test (Japan is unusual in that potential gun owners must affirmatively prove their mental fitness), which you’ll file with the police. Finally, pass a rigorous background check for any criminal record or association with criminal or extremist groups, and you will be the proud new owner of your shotgun or air rifle. Just don’t forget to provide police with documentation on the specific location of the gun in your home, as well as the ammo, both of which must be locked and stored separately. And remember to have the police inspect the gun once per year and to re-take the class and exam every three years.

Even the most basic framework of Japan’s approach to gun ownership is almost the polar opposite of America’s. U.S. gun law begins with the second amendment's affirmation of the “right of the people to keep and bear arms” and narrows it down from there. Japanese law, however, starts with the 1958 act stating that “No person shall possess a firearm or firearms or a sword or swords,” later adding a few exceptions. In other words, American law is designed to enshrine access to guns, while Japan starts with the premise of forbidding it.”

From: A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths

This policy is very similar to the Laws of the Baha’i Faith:

173. It hath been forbidden you to carry arms unless essential # 159

Bahá’u’lláh confirms an injunction contained in the Bayán which makes it unlawful to carry arms, unless it is necessary to do so. With regard to circumstances under which the bearing of arms might be “essential” for an individual, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá gives permission to a believer for self-protection in a dangerous environment. Shoghi Effendi in a letter written on his behalf has also indicated that, in an emergency, when there is no legal force at hand to appeal to, a Bahá’í is justified in defending his life. There are a number of other situations in which weapons are needed and can be legitimately used; for instance, in countries where people hunt for their food and clothing, and in such sports as archery, marksmanship, and fencing.
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, pp. 240-241
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
I cannot see how that would be possible in a gun culture such as this, but in my opinion we should have gun laws like Japan.

Japanese culture is based on honor. You can drop a camera in places in Japan and it will still be there when you look for it later. The US is based on rugged individualism/frontier living. So very different.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
If we were religious, we would say God made them this way.

But since we are rational people we accept that not everyone is born like little Buddhas, without mental health issues. There are many natural disorders that occur naturally in peoples brains, but there are also many people who struggle in life because they are not taught good coping skills. Others live is high stress environments and struggle to cope with helplessness. There is also a lot of negative influences, some of which people invite into their lives, like racist views of those around them. More mental health care access would help people learn and cope better.

The USA has a subtle philosophy of everyone for themselves, and it just doesn't work.

Plus pollution, toxic food and household products, etc. Things that other first world nations often ban.
 
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