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10 killed in Buffalo, NY store shooting!

Should high-capacity magazines of civilian firearms be banned?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 28 70.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 9 22.5%
  • Maybe/Don't Know.

    Votes: 3 7.5%

  • Total voters
    40

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Do you understand why owning guns was a right for citizens in 1789?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.​

The USA no longer has state militias. States are secured in different ways in 2022. The right is established so citizens could form and defend the state from outside forces. The forces are no longer a threat.
Wait a second. Just because you don't think we do things the same way does not mean our rights can be changed without a constitutional amendment. We still have the right to defend our state the way we did in 1789. Have you read the supreme court cases that affirm the individual right to have weapons? Where do you think they got it wrong?

This has nothing to do with what I said. Justices are being selected by Republicans for the purpose of the court to make policy favorable to them. That is unethical and bad faith.
Unfortunately this is the system. Dems do it too, not sure how to stop it other than vote better people in office.

Nor was Dred Scott. Our nation has certainly evolved morally over time. And this includes the functional rights of 1789 that are obsolete today. The republicans are not going to select justices that are open to new arguments about open gun rights. I don't have a problem with a right to own guns, but I believe the USA needs a federal set of limits of who gets them and for what purpose.
I agree that we should keep guns away from some people with due process. But you don't need any reason to exercise a right. If the government gets to choose who gets a gun based on the reason you want one then you have given them the means to take away a right at any time. Do you need a reason to exercise you freedom of religion or speech?

Which political actors are most authoritarian in the USA?
Dems, but again what are the reasons for opposition? You don't seem to care.

Which political party has a Voting Rights bill that the other party opposes?
Dems? However more dems opposed the voting rights act of 1965, Senate 17 dems opposed, 2 republicans opposed, House 62 dems opposed, 23 republicans opposed.

Who is lying about election fraud?
Both, Hillary still thinks she won the election of 2016.

Who wants to limit mail in ballots and drop boxes that make voting easier?
Rep, it also make cheating easier.

Which political [party is looking to get secretaries of state and election officials in place in certain states who are in a position to decertify election results?
no one.

That number is 1. And we are way passed that number. After Sandy Hook where 20 children of 6-7 years old and 6 teachers were killed I thought this is the breaking point. It wasn't. The NRA went on a fund raising tour.
And how would more gun restrictions eliminate another one happening? Maybe if someone in the school had a gun... The shooter entered the school at 9:35 am shot 20+ children/people and killed himself at 9:40 am. The police got there at 9:37 am. The police had no chance to save anyone, maybe if a teacher or administrator or an full time on duty police officer was on site things would have been different.

The idea that a heavily armed public is going to stop mass shooters is absurd. The Buffalo, NY killer shot 4 people in the parking lot and caught them by surprise. Even if these 4 people had guns they had no chance to hide, pull a gun, aim, and shoot before being hit. The same in any mass shooting where the killers show out by surprise and open fire. People are getting murdered before any others have a chance to run and hide. And IF any of these people are brave enough, and cool under fire enough, to pull a gun and shoot back, well look at how often the police miss their targets in gun fights. And you want a mom with three kids in tow to stand her ground and fire back like she's in Ukraine, nor her neighborhood grocer?
I NEVER said anything would stop these shootings. But without an right to own and carry a gun there is not chance for anyone in these situations. It is absurd to think that more gun laws will stop these shootings.

Do you really think that a person who is willing to mass murder strangers is going to think through whether the people he targets are armed or not?
Not the point. If they are not armed they will be heavily disadvantaged, with a gun they have a better chance to defend themselves if they choose to.

No. I suggest making access to these dangerous guns more difficult. People can still get them, but they need to jump through hoops and prove they are sound thinkers and have a good reason to own them.
Again you don't need a reason to exercise your rights. So criminals follow the laws?

Is it really more important that an 18 year old racist get an assault rifle than the lives of 10 victims, and their families? There are people alive right now who will be the next victim of a mass killer. Would you do anything to stop him if you could?
Of course, taking away guns from citizens makes them more likely to get killed if a shooter starts shooting. Do you really think an 18 yo person cannot get an illegal rifle? The problem you have is that the laws failed to recognize him as a threat when they should have. I don't trust the government to protect me, I will do that myself.
 

Firelight

Inactive member
OK, we have roughly 340,000,000 people living in the U.S., and according to the FBI we have over 400,000,000 guns in the U.S., so what could possibly go wrong?

:rolleyes:

What do you mean? Why not expand with some more statistics comparing how few murders by guns there are compared to how many guns exist? Etc.?
 

Firelight

Inactive member
That's kind of a moot question, since every developed country has multiple aspects whether geographical or socioeconomic that differentiate it from other developed countries. The U.S. is no exception. Also, Canada, Australia, the U.K., and Germany, among others, all have a lot of cultural and ethnic diversity and liberty, but they don't have anywhere near the amount of gun violence that the U.S. has.

Besides, I would argue, as would many non-Americans (and even some Americans), that the U.S. has less liberty than other developed countries that are generally safer, have more affordable health care, and less room for neo-Nazis and fascists to spread unchecked hate speech and incitement of racial strife and violence.

Your argument seems to boil down to yet another variety of "the U.S. is a special/exceptional case, so it operates by different rules." Yet by almost all metrics of quality of life, it lags behind many other developed nations because some policies and guidelines are beneficial almost universally (e.g., free health care). The unique aspects of the U.S. don't change this.

You didn’t answer my question. You simply provided a long explanation on something you thought applied.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
OK, we have roughly 340,000,000 people living in the U.S., and according to the FBI we have over 400,000,000 guns in the U.S., so what could possibly go wrong?

:rolleyes:
Well considering the vast majority are law abiding, I don't suspect much will go wrong.
 

Firelight

Inactive member
"The suspect addressed the incident in posts on Discord later shared on 4Chan, writing in a post-dated January 30 that he "had to go to a hospital's ER because I said the word's 'murder/suicide' to an online paper in economics class."

An extensive background check of the white supremacist shooter's online social media posts would have revealed the racist shooter did confess to saying "murder/suicide" in school, this should have kept him from legally possessing any firearms.

I’m aware of the quote. I covered that info in my comments more than once.

“Should have” means NOTHING. Please, provide the LAW of New York or the Federal law that says that confessing to saying “murder-suicide” WILL put a flag on a person’s record and WILL keep a person from buying a firearm. Do you not understand that a LAW for a particular incident MUST exist in order to prevent a firearm purchase? Do you not understand that it’s LAWS that regulate which incidents get flagged and show up on background checks? If there is NO law in existence that prevents a firearm purchase due to a particular incident, then the person will be able to legally purchase a firearm. Just because you think there should be a law, or wish there were a law preventing a firearm purchase for a particular action, doesn’t mean one exists.

No matter how thorough and extensive the background check is, a person can still legally purchase a firearm if no law prevents the purchase. The person performing the background checks do not make the laws or evaluate situations. They perform the background check, if the law has flagged nothing, then they can sell a firearm to that person. In the killer’s case, there was no law requiring a flag to go on his record for the high school incident, therefore, there was no flag on his background check, no matter how extensive the background check would have been.

If someone wants such incidents to be flagged in the future, and a firearm purchase prevented, then try to get a law passed for such an incident to be flagged on a background check.
 

Suave

Simulated character
I’m aware of the quote. I covered that info in my comments more than once.

“Should have” means NOTHING. Please, provide the LAW of New York or the Federal law that says that confessing to saying “murder-suicide” WILL put a flag on a person’s record and WILL keep a person from buying a firearm. Do you not understand that a LAW for a particular incident MUST exist in order to prevent a firearm purchase? Do you not understand that it’s LAWS that regulate which incidents get flagged and show up on background checks? If there is NO law in existence that prevents a firearm purchase due to a particular incident, then the person will be able to legally purchase a firearm. Just because you think there should be a law, or wish there were a law preventing a firearm purchase for a particular action, doesn’t mean one exists.

No matter how thorough and extensive the background check is, a person can still legally purchase a firearm if no law prevents the purchase. The person performing the background checks do not make the laws or evaluate situations. They perform the background check, if the law has flagged nothing, then they can sell a firearm to that person. In the killer’s case, there was no law requiring a flag to go on his record for the high school incident, therefore, there was no flag on his background check, no matter how extensive the background check would have been.

If someone wants such incidents to be flagged in the future, and a firearm purchase prevented, then try to get a law passed for such an incident to be flagged on a background check.
Please let us urge our Congressional leaders to enact universal background checks on gunowners as well as federal red flag laws prohibiting anyone who expresses murder-suicide from owning a firearm.
 

Suave

Simulated character
For life or limited in some sense?
Imprisonment limited to the time the illegal gun owner has complied with a court order having his firearm or firearms surrendered to federal agents in charge of confiscating illegally owned firearms,

DSCN8219-1100x825.jpg
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Imprisonment limited to the time the illegal gun owner has complied with a court order having his firearm or firearms surrendered to federal agents in charge of confiscating illegally owned firearms,

I post that I want to do a murder/suicide. How long into the future does that mean, I can get a gun?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Why not expand with some more statistics comparing how few murders by guns there are compared to how many guns exist? Etc.?
That's not the most important stat as I was talking about the fact that the proliferation of guns here has a direct relationship as to why we have a higher homicide rate than most westernized industrialized countries, and the difference between them and us isn't even close in most cases.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
That's not the most important stat as I was talking about the fact that the proliferation of guns here has a direct relationship as to why we have a higher homicide rate than most westernized industrialized countries, and the difference between them and us isn't even close in most cases.
The homicide rate varies from one State to another, however if you are looking at the total homiced rate of the U.S. it is higher than many.
Compare the firearm homiced rate of say Idaho which in 2019 was 1.01 per 100,000 (18 homicides that year)
Now look at firearm ownership which is 60.1%
Given the ownership figure and your hypothesis it would suggest our homicide rate would be higher.
Is it possible that homicide rate is not due to firearms but to the environment?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The homicide rate varies from one State to another, however if you are looking at the total homiced rate of the U.S. it is higher than many.
Compare the firearm homiced rate of say Idaho which in 2019 was 1.01 per 100,000 (18 homicides that year)
Now look at firearm ownership which is 60.1%
Given the ownership figure and your hypothesis it would suggest our homicide rate would be higher.
Is it possible that homicide rate is not due to firearms but to the environment?

Yes, it could also be a combination.
Further you also have to include accidental deaths by firearms.
 
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