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‘It Is Utterly Impossible to Be Rich without Committing Injustice'

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Would there be a need for charity if the system actually worked for everyone?
Absolutely. Even if government funded everything the voting public wanted,
there'd still be endeavors worth funding. Most of the museums in this country
get no public funding whatsoever. They're much smaller than the Smithsonian
or the Met, & thrive with private donations of money, artifacts, & labor.
Private organizations & individuals would continue to see needs which would
escape government notice & largesse.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Absolutely. Even if government funded everything the voting public wanted,
there'd still be endeavors worth funding. Most of the museums in this country
get no public funding whatsoever. They're much smaller than the Smithsonian
or the Met, & thrive with private donations of money, artifacts, & labor.
Private organizations & individuals would continue to see needs which would
escape government notice & largesse.

Your notion of "system" seems restricted. Think outside the box.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Hmm, I'm not sure about that based upon the individuals in your list - with all due respect.

King David was a mass polygamist with hundreds of wives and concubines. The women don't appear to have been given much agency or say. He lusted after Bathsheba, a girl married to one of his closest friends and subjects. He conspired to have this faithful friend murdered so that he could have the guy's wife for himself and he subsequently fathered Solomon to this particular lady. Human lives appear to have been quite disposable to him.

Solomon had his brother Adonijah murdered because he feared he would be a rival claimant to the throne and he wanted to consolidate power for himself. In Deuteronomy 17:16–17, a king is commanded not to multiply horses or wives, neither greatly multiply to himself gold or silver. Solomon sins in all three of these areas. Solomon collected 666 talents of gold each year (1 Kings 10:14). So he wasn't a faithful Jew according to his own religion.

Cyrus was a canny propagandist who generally permitted conquered peoples to continue to worship their native gods. But he was also a bloodthirsty imperialist who died trying to expand his territory.

King Mansa Musa the king of Mali, made his pilgrimage to Mecca in 1325, with 500 slaves and 100 camels. He owned human beings as personal property.

Many people, historically, like Gautama Buddha, St. Francis of Assisi and Mahavira begun their lives with great wealth. However, they died having abandoned their riches as ascetics who devoted the remainder of lives to caring for those suffering psychologically, emotionally and physically. All three of them had a life-changing enlightenment experience in their late 20s - early 30s and turned away from their lives of power, pleasure and excess.

None of the men on your list did that and in my humble opinion it shows in their characters as history has brought them down to us in the extant source material.
So one is out to demolish those persons on grounds that had no role in their being rich. It is not a fair thing and is incorrect approach. Please correct it. Right, please?

Regards
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Any human, anywhere in the world, could live a very VERY good life on an income of let's say $1,000,000 per year. With that kind of annual income one could travel the world in luxury, own several homes in their favorite places, and enjoy pretty much any pleasure life has to offer. And if they were to live to be 100 years old, they could enjoy that lifestyle from the onset of adulthood until their death for about $80 million dollars (let's say 100 million). So I can't think of any logical reason why anyone should want, or should be allowed, to accumulate more than about 100 million dollars in their lifetime. Or why the society in which they live would allow them to do so. Because accumulating in excess of that amount just becomes grotesquely greedy, and economically perverse. It's an exercise in vanity, and ego, and loathing for humankind that should not be tolerated by any logical, reasonable society.

It's not a matter of them choosing to give any back. It's a matter of a failed system allowing them to acquire so much more then they could ever need in the first place. Because no good can come it. No individual human deserves it, and anyone who wants it will surely be acting on ill intent.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Any human, anywhere in the world, could live a very VERY good life on an income of let's say $1,000,000 per year. With that kind of annual income one could travel the world in luxury, own several homes in their favorite places, and enjoy pretty much any pleasure life has to offer. And if they were to live to be 100 years old, they could enjoy that lifestyle from the onset of adulthood until their death for about $80 million dollars (let's say 100 million). So I can't think of any logical reason why anyone should want, or should be allowed, to accumulate more than about 100 million dollars in their lifetime. Or why the society in which they live would allow them to do so. Because accumulating in excess of that amount just becomes grotesquely greedy, and economically perverse. It's an exercise in vanity, and ego, and loathing for humankind that should not be tolerated by any logical, reasonable society.

It's not a matter of them choosing to give any back. It's a matter of a failed system allowing them to acquire so much more then they could ever need in the first place. Because no good can come it. No individual human deserves it, and anyone who wants it will surely be acting on ill intent.
For someone to have more than you think they need....oh, the humanity!
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Any human, anywhere in the world, could live a very VERY good life on an income of let's say $1,000,000 per year. With that kind of annual income one could travel the world in luxury, own several homes in their favorite places, and enjoy pretty much any pleasure life has to offer. And if they were to live to be 100 years old, they could enjoy that lifestyle from the onset of adulthood until their death for about $80 million dollars (let's say 100 million). So I can't think of any logical reason why anyone should want, or should be allowed, to accumulate more than about 100 million dollars in their lifetime. Or why the society in which they live would allow them to do so. Because accumulating in excess of that amount just becomes grotesquely greedy, and economically perverse. It's an exercise in vanity, and ego, and loathing for humankind that should not be tolerated by any logical, reasonable society.

It's not a matter of them choosing to give any back. It's a matter of a failed system allowing them to acquire so much more then they could ever need in the first place. Because no good can come it. No individual human deserves it, and anyone who wants it will surely be acting on ill intent.

Is this really true? Wouldn't prices rise due to the increased money supply? (Inflation.)
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
I guess when you are a Christian (or professing to be one in public) then taking care of the poor should be a duty, and a privilege if you have the means. The small acts of kindness mean so much, and if you have a huge surplus, make a difference in large ways...rather than giving the man a fish...teach him to fish.

Build hospitals and supply medicines and safe drinking water to those who are dying like flies for want of the things many of us take for granted.<snip to end.... :(

I get you.

Really. I do.

the problem I keep running into is this: I ain't rich. I don't have that sort of money. Never did, never will.

I mean, I know what I would do if I ever won the mega lottery (the 250 million + one) that I don't actually buy tickets for. I would pay off my family's mortgages, pay my final funeral expenses, and donate the rest to the local government to fund CSUAV (California State University Antelope Valley). As in, if they didn't use it for that, they couldn't have the money.

I'd come back from the grave and sue them.

but that's me. My choice. Who am I to tell anybody ELSE how much money is too much, where they have to donate it, and all that stuff?

BTW, because I read this in one of the above posts...the top 1% do NOT own 40% of the assets and pay 20% of the taxes. They may well own 40% of the assets, but they ALSO pay 40% of the taxes.

In fact, turns out that the top 10% of the 'wealthiest' people in the USA pay 90% of the taxes. Just how far do you folks want to go with this?

As in....the question I ask myself a LOT...who died and made you God, that you get to tell other people how much is too much, how much and where their donations should go, and how much you should divest yourselves of so that I can have some?

Because when you come right down to it, isn't that last question the one really being asked here?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Is there a “maximum moral income” beyond which it’s inexcusable not to give away your superfluous money?
Kinda sorta, IMO.

I think it's useful to see income in terms of the three categories Adam Smith laid out:

- wages - i.e. being paid for one's labour
- profit - i.e. activities that create a real increase in value (e.g. taking raw materials and turning them into a useful or desirable product).
- rent (which is different from just a lease paid on a piece of real estate) - i.e. income that isn't derived from a real increase in value.

IMO, there's no intrinsic moral issue with either of the first two forms of income. The third is problematic.

Economic rent isn't evil per se, but it creates costs for society. Economic rent can be justified by either:

- recognizing its importance in paying for some real need (e.g. subsidized health care that allows someone life-saving treatment), or
- having the recipient of that rent provide value in some other way that offsets the cost they've imposed on society.

So it's not so much that there's a specific number where I can say "if you have at least this much money, you have too much." It's more like "if the world is worse off because of you or your wealth, use that wealth to make the world better until - at a minimum - that's no longer the case."

Where that line is will depend greatly on how the wealth was obtained. For instance, I don't think the Oppenheimer family - behind the De Beers diamond company - has enough wealth to fully make amends for the harm they inflicted to make their money, even though they're the richest family in the world.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Who am I to tell anybody ELSE how much money is too much, where they have to donate it, and all that stuff?
Who are you to tell a man he is not allowed to sexually molest a child? Who is any of us to tell any others of us what we should and should not be allowed to do?

And yet it is nevertheless necessary that we do so, because there are those among us that would molest children, rape, rob, murder, extort, torture, and otherwise do all sorts of harm to others if they were not dissuaded from such behaviors by the force of our collective will.

So I'm curious, is there some other reason why you would allow such insane and harmful wealth inequity besides "it's not my place" to interfere? Because I'm not buying that one for a minute.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Kinda sorta, IMO.

I think it's useful to see income in terms of the three categories Adam Smith laid out:

- wages - i.e. being paid for one's labour
- profit - i.e. activities that create a real increase in value (e.g. taking raw materials and turning them into a useful or desirable product).
- rent (which is different from just a lease paid on a piece of real estate) - i.e. income that isn't derived from a real increase in value.

I think your quite correct to home in upon so-called "rentier capitalism" as, perhaps, the main culprit here - those taking income from unproductive assets, such as real estate, or reaping surfeit profits from their monopoly over property or infrastructure (*cough* Donald Trump and his dad *cough*):


Billionaires haven’t earned all they have


The very wealthy do produce some value, but most of them are rentiers, piggybacking on the work of others

By proposing to tax large incomes at a higher rate and to tax the wealth of the very rich, progressive politicians such as Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Sens. Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are forcing a long-overdue re-examination of what billionaires actually contribute.

Are billionaires and other “people of means” (billionaire Howard Schultz’s preferred phrase) the main engines of social progress and economic growth, as many on the right say? Or, are they “vampire squids” sucking the lifeblood of the economy, as a few on the left believe?

Are billionaires the greatest makers in the economy, or the greatest takers?

My own view is that most billionaires do create some value, but they generally take more than their share of money and power. Their wealth far exceeds their economic contributions. Plutocrats don’t deserve the guillotine, but neither do they deserve billions of dollars.

Plutocrats are, above all, rentiers.

Most wealth is created, maintained and sustained by extracting unearned rents from the rest of us. The wealthy take advantage of monopolies, asymmetric information, network effects, regulatory capture, artificial scarcities created by patents, licenses or trademarks, bailouts, subsidies, protectionism, financialization, and globalization.

More recently, economists on both the right and left have championed the theory of “rent-seeking” behavior (or cronyism) by those who want to profit from patents, subsidies, licenses, bailouts, protections, or just having the authorities look the other way.

It’s not just wealth that they take, but political power as well. Do you think that Donald Trump, or Howard Schultz, or the Koch brothers, or Mike Bloomberg, or Warren Buffett, or George Soros, or Kanye West could get anyone to pay any attention to their political views if they weren’t already rich and connected?

What upsets the ruling class most about Warren, Sanders, Ocasio-Cortez and others isn’t the threat to their wealth — they would barely notice the level of taxes now being proposed. Rather, it’s the threat to their political superpowers. Don’t these mortals know better than to challenge the gods?

They also capture a lot of rents, which means they really haven’t earned everything they have. Nor do they deserve the political power they use to protect and expand their rent-seeking behavior.

The problem we have with billionaires isn’t that they have wealth, it’s how they got it. An economy based on collecting rents is inefficient and unfair.

Rentier capitalism, then and now, matches perfectly Chrysostom's description of the superfluous wealth of the rich constituting, in effect, an act of collective "theft" of the middle classes and most especially the poor. Indeed, he actually said something akin to this in another of his homilies:


Tell me, then, why are you rich? From whom did you receive it, and from whom he who transmitted it to you? "From my father and grandfather". But can you, ascending through many generations, show the acquisition just? It cannot be. The root and origin of its must have been injustice.

Why? Because God in the beginning made not one man rich, and another poor. Nor did He afterwards take and show to one treasures of gold, and deny to the other the right of searching for it: but He left the earth free to all alike. Why then, if it is common, have you so many acres of land, while your neighbour has not a portion of it?

"It was transmitted to me by my father." And by whom to him? By his forefathers. But you must go back to the original owner. Jacob had wealth, but it was earned as the hire of his labors

(Schaff, 1886, 13, p.447)

Chrysostom is here addressing Roman-era "rentiers".

Note: "the hire of his labours". Chrysostom concluded that the only possible legitimate source of property lies in the exercise of our labour power. In the context of Roman economics (in an agrarian and patrician slave economy, built around a system of patronage and clientelism, with all the differences that entails from a contemporary free-market economy), I think this is roughly analogous to your point about rental income / unearned income leeching off society.

There are a lot of highly-thought of economists - staunch defenders of the liberal free-market order - who, nevertheless, believe that abuse of rental income is seriously undermining the overall system and is a root cause of pervasive inequities in society. They warn, I believe prophetically, that the current trajectory can only result in a steeper decline in free competition (monopolies), meagre productivity growth, ever burgeoning inequality and (most worrying of all) decaying liberal democracy owing to corporate lobbying that overrides the representation and interests of ordinary citizens.

Its in this respect that I do concur with Chrysostom that the 'rich' - if by that one means, specifically, the rentier class of his day and ours that leeches off of society - cannot but commit injustice by their very existence. And there has to be something seriously flawed about a political-economic system that has enabled this malpractice mode of wealth acquisition to become so utterly endemic. Maybe we aren't as far away from the plutocrats of the ancient Roman Senate as we like to think.

Its a harsh-sounding judgment but many economists and social-scientists of note are today telling us precisely this. The problem is that billionaires are particularly adept at hiding their unearned income from the public at large. And that's because they exert a much too powerful hold over our politics. And so the vicious cycle perpetuates itself, until you end up with disaster capitalism and creative destruction.

Martin Wolf CBE, the chief economics commentator for the English Financial Times (who became a born again Keynesian in the 2000s as a result of his alarm at the ascendancy of rentierism), explained in an article from last year that:


"“rent” means rewards over and above those required to induce the desired supply of goods, services, land or labour. “Rentier capitalism” means an economy in which market and political power allows privileged individuals and businesses to extract a great deal of such rent from everybody else... superstar individuals and their companies earn monopoly rents, because they can now serve global markets so cheaply...

They must, not least, consider their activities in the public arena. What are they doing to ensure better laws governing the structure of the corporation, a fair and effective tax system, a safety net for those afflicted by economic forces beyond their control, a healthy local and global environment and a democracy responsive to the wishes of a broad majority?".​


There was an article in the Guardian a few months ago:


Wealthiest 10% cash in as average family income falls


The “unearned income” of the most well-off people in Britain more than doubled while millions endured austerity and stagnant wages, an Observer analysis of government data reveals.

Income from property, interest, dividends and other investment income – sometimes called unearned income, as most of it does not come directly from work – rose by more than 40% between 2010-11 and 2015-16, the most recent year for which HMRC figures are available.


Rentier capitalism might be compared to a "leech" and one of the corollaries of rent-seeking is endemic tax avoidance. Large multi-national corporations, for example, operate so lucratively only because of public goods - security, effective rule of law and strong administrations, infrastructure, highly-educated workforces and political stability - which first create the environment they need to thrive.

And then there's this aspect of it:


Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens | Perspectives on Politics | Cambridge Core


Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence. The results provide substantial support for theories of Economic-Elite Domination and for theories of Biased Pluralism, but not for theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy or Majoritarian Pluralism.

Its demonstrably, empirically, very bad for the future of transparent democracy.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
the problem I keep running into is this: I ain't rich. I don't have that sort of money. Never did, never will.

Me either, but that wouldn't stop me buying some food and giving it to someone in need. It doesn't have to be a huge expense. Even to forego your coffee and give it to someone who hasn't has one in a very long time. It would make you feel good for the rest of the day. And it would restore that person's faith in humanity.

BTW, because I read this in one of the above posts...the top 1% do NOT own 40% of the assets and pay 20% of the taxes. They may well own 40% of the assets, but they ALSO pay 40% of the taxes.

In fact, turns out that the top 10% of the 'wealthiest' people in the USA pay 90% of the taxes.

Are you sure about that? Are you sure that the big fellas pay their fair share? They pay accountants big dollars to minimize their tax. Here in Australia the big fellas (American companies like Google) were dodging tax right, left and center. And the fact remains that the basic wage earner pays tax without having the luxury of clever and creative accountants. If the big fellas paid their way, the little fella could keep more of his hard earned dollars, which in America I believe is harder than most other Western nations. I am astounded at how low your wages are compared to what people in the same occupation in Australia earn for doing the same job. I think it reinforces the old adage that "if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys". o_O

Just how far do you folks want to go with this?
As far as it is humanly possible to alleviate the struggle of the increasing numbers of homeless people. It is no longer just the poor, but the middle class now live in their cars or in tent cities because they can't afford a place to live.

According to this source....

"Homelessness impacts all of us, whether or not we experience it ourselves. It’s a public health problem. Without their own housing and the social status to use restrooms in businesses or other public places, people who are homeless often have to relieve themselves outside.

They lack access to health care and often have chronic illnesses, made worse by tough living conditions: sleeping outside in all weather, eating cheap starchy foods, and being in close quarters at social service agencies with other unhealthy people. Homelessness is an economic problem. People without housing are high consumers of public resources and generate expense, rather than income, for the community. In WNC’s tourism driven economy, homelessness is bad for business and can be a deterrent to downtown visitors.

Based on a study conducted a few years ago, it can cost our community as much as $23,000 for one person to be chronically homeless for one year (shelter stays, jail time, emergency room visits, etc.). Most importantly, homelessness is a human tragedy. Our own community members live in tents and under bridges, vulnerable to inclement weather and violence, stripped of dignity and our collective respect. When we think about what causes homelessness, we often think about addiction, mental illness, domestic violence, job loss, and disabilities. And those are all accurate demographic characteristics of the homeless population.

Many people who are homeless struggle with both mental illness and addiction, often using alcohol and/or drugs to self-medicate an undiagnosed or untreated mental illness. Domestic violence rates are high, and most people who are homeless have been victims of physical or sexual abuse at some point in their lives.

While some people work through day labor companies or have service industry jobs, unemployment is more common. And an estimated 40% of the homeless population is disabled. But those factors describe not only the homeless population in the United States . . .but also the housed population. They describe all of us. They are all normal life crises. In our own communities and in our own families, we all know people who are alcoholics. Who are on medication for mental health problems, like depression or bipolar disorder. We may know people who’ve experienced domestic violence or other traumas. In the tough economy of the past few years, we’ve all known people who’ve lost their jobs.

The difference between people who experience those challenges and become homeless and people who experience them and don’t lose their housing is simple: it’s support. If we have a strong support system around us when something happens, then people who care about us intervene when they notice us drinking too much. They help us cover our rent or mortgage payment while we’re between jobs. They show up at the hospital when we get sick or hurt and they pick our kids up from school when we can’t get there ourselves. People who are homeless are just as varied as people who are not; the only commonality among them is a profound lack of support."

https://www.homewardboundwnc.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Homelessness-Dec.-2012.pdf

Maybe its time for the mega wealthy to give a damn.....:shrug:
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Me either, but that wouldn't stop me buying some food and giving it to someone in need. It doesn't have to be a huge expense. Even to forego your coffee and give it to someone who hasn't has one in a very long time. It would make you feel good for the rest of the day. And it would restore that person's faith in humanity.



Are you sure about that?



Yep. Looked it up and everything. Seems to be a pretty universally accepted, and reported, set of stats up this way. Forbes, the IRS, pretty much everybody agrees that the percentage of taxes paid by the 'upper' 1 to 10% equals 40 to 90 % of the taxes. there's some argument as to the amount of assets owned, but nobody claims that the top group own more assets than they pay, percentage wise, in taxes.

what percentage of taxes does the top 1 pay - Google Search

This search gets you to a LOT of different statistical charts, pretty much all of which say the same thing, just about.

In case that doesn't get you anywhere, the search terms I used were "what percentage of taxes does the top 1% pay?'

We COULD, of course, go back to the Kennedy era where the top 1% were taxed at 90% and more, and everybody went off shore, clipped coupons and exported all the jobs, but that's not a real good idea, y'know?

I keep remembering my college years...not so long ago, actually; I went to school VERY late in life...where one group was insisting that the world had only so many assets to share around, like a pie you cut into pieces and those pieces are all there are, and another group insisted that assets are more like wheat crops; when you harvest them correctly, you get more. These are the folks who go by sayings like 'a rising tide raises all boats."

I look around myself here, and see the folks we call 'poor' in the USA....even the homeless have better tents than the guys in other countries. The rest of the 'poor' have roofs, running water, heat, food, big TV sets, transportation, clothes, education....not precisely what the Victorian English would call 'poor.'

As in...a rising tide lifts all boats.

Not that I don't think that we can, and should, do more to help the poor. The difference is that I think WE should. I should. I have no right to...as my favorite political cartoon states, where the conservative and the liberal are both walking down the road. The conservative says 'we should do more to help the poor' and the liberal, reaching into the conservative's pocket, says "you are right. You SHOULD do more to help the poor, and I'm going to see to it that you do that, and do it my way."

I noticed a couple of things about that cartoon, that has since proven, statistically, to be true. First, the conservative was thinking how HE could help the poor, and willing to spend his own money to do it, and second, the liberal was 'virtue signalling' about how he was concerned about the poor by making someone ELSE fork out the funds, while he wasn't handing any of his own out.

So yeah, I do what I can, when I can. I'm not going to tell anybody else that THEY aren't doing enough, or in the correct way. That's definitely a 'he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone' sort of thing.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@Sunstone

Thank you for your challenging critique of St. Chrysostom's 'thesis'. I can always count upon you to deliver the "money note" (pun intended!), which is to say, a notably insightful contribution to my thread.

In response, I would firstly direct you to my prior conversation with Penguin, where I concurred with his very precise (Adam Smith-influenced) identification of the superfluous wealth of the 'unjust' rich (in my OP phraseology) as consisting largely of the rental income of so-called "rentier capitalists", who unfortunately dominate the highest echelons of our present day global economic system (much to the detriment of the rest of us, from whom they exact their unearned rental income - hence the "theft" of the public wealth/good aspect of this).

Most of our billionaires, in addition to any actual value-producing income they might have garnered from their creation of desirable/useful products or service that actually give consumers tangible benefit for their expenditure, also happen (and I'm going to argue not-coincidentally) to be unproductive "rentiers" of a much vaster unearned income (and some, like real estate magnets, are entirely purveyors of unproductive assets and are basically just rentiers). Why might this be the case?

What is it about our culture/political system/economy that leads otherwise "productive" and (in theory) responsible private enterprisers to become absentee landlords / remote shareholders, who subsequently lobby sovereign parliaments and governments to have legislation passed that enables them to further extend their rent-seeking behaviour via shady tax loopholes and in opposition to efforts that seek to regulate mergers, clamp down on anti-competitive practices, introduce rules on financial misbehaviour, environment and labour markets that would actually benefit the wider population?

Consider the infamous "Hobbit Law" in New Zealand, by which huge American entertainment companies bullied the government of a sovereign state into barring Kiwi film workers from unionizing (by categorising them as independent contractors rather than employees) so that Warner Bros. could benefit from tax breaks and poor workers rights protections, with the threat of pulling out and ruining an important sector of the state's economy if they refused to comply.

Could one honestly argue that New Line / Warner Bros were not acting as leeches against the interests of the Kiwi people?

I purposefully didn't define the terms "rich" and "unjust" in my OP so as to leave the discussion as open as possible. But I've been pushed by your and Penguin's excellent posts into laying my cards on the table and defining the terms of what I'm really getting at here, and which I believe St. Chrysostom was getting at in his own day and age as well.

Concerning the material circumstances of the Roman Empire in which St. Chrysostom lived:


"The surplus wealth of the [Roman] empire, after the subsistence of the workers had been met, was, with the primitive methods of production in use, not large. Out of this surplus had to be maintained a large rentier class, ranging from senators to decurions"

(Journal of Roman Studies vol.37-39, p.150)

"They had always been essentially a rentier class, overseeing the labour of their peasants rather than engaging in the primary work of agricultural production [...] idling on their own town councils, now idling in the offices of the central Roman state...The late Roman landowning elite, like their forbears, would alternate between their urban houses and their country estates"

(Peter Heather, The Fall of the Roman Empire p.118)

In our own day, the Congressional Research Service made reference in a 2012 study to the “increasing concentration of income at the top of the income distribution” suggesting that the divide between the wealthy and the poor in America is larger today than it was in the roaring twenties. This societal concentration of wealth extends to the corridors of power in light of a net wealth analysis of Congress, published in January 2014, which revealed that the majority of politicians were millionaires with a mean net worth of at or above a million dollars.

The executive director of the centre noted that to run for American elections, candidates had to be capable of “financially viable campaigns” with the more efficient campaigners already mingling in the “circles” of the well-to-do. Furthermore in terms of electioneering itself, it is apparent that a prospective senatorial candidate, as former National Republican committee spokesperson Doug Heye explained, would have to devote an “extraordinary amount of time”, from between six months to upwards of a year campaigning, something practically impossible for an individual with low to medium income, who works full time and has a family to support. Without private wealth, the party apparatus would have to invest in a poorer individual which, by default, provides them with an “incentive to recruit wealthy candidates”.

The similarity of this to the 'rentier class' of the Roman Republic and Empire, which had hierarchical gradations within the citizenry in the context of an “unabashed plutocracy” where the colossal expense of “electioneering and office-holding” guaranteed that the foremost positions in the executive were occupied by affluent incumbents despite the fact that the official name for, ‘The Senate and the People of Rome’ stressed a “partnership” between the civic populace and the governing body via popular assemblies, is overt.

Does this not mean that modern democracy in America rests once again on the availability of “leisure” time provided by superfluous unearned income, as it did for the Greeks and Romans, albeit nowadays funded not through slave labour and agricultural peasant serfs but rather by the “the ever-growing and all-invading power of big business” (to quote Pope Pius XII, Address (Questa Grande Vostra Adunata) 21st October, 1945)?

This raises the disturbing question of whether the reality of a small and wealthy segment of the population holding the reins of power and monopolizing those institutions by means of a financial advantage and a private wealth necessary for successful political campaigns, compromises contemporary democracy with plutocracy.

The dichotomy of the "bad unproductive" rentier (who extracts unearned value from the economy with his/her monopoly rents or speculative assets etc.) vs the good productive enterpriser (who organises a business venture and assumes the risk in return for a profit for his labours) is theoretically sound and true. But the problem is that we find ourselves right now in a situation where the "super-rich" are at once both the rentiers and productive enterprisers. And increasingly the latter appears almost like a smokescreen for the former source of income.

In breathing your heart and soul into your inspired poetry Phil, in return for a richly deserved profit in return for this labour, you are "productive" and most definitely not a rentier. And yet, you are operating in a system which is increasingly infected with rentier malpractice and arguably we are all suffering as a result of this.

In the 1930s John Maynard Keynes opined that “the rentier aspect of capitalism is a transitional phase which will disappear when it has done its work.” He firmly believed that “the euthanasia of the rentier, of the functionless investor, will be nothing sudden, merely a gradual but prolonged continuance of what we have seen recently in Great Britain.

But was he right about that?

At the same time, in 1931 during the Great Depression, Pope Pius XI came to a quite different conclusion about the 'rentier' class: he characterised it as less a transitional aberration from ;good, productive capitalist competition' and more a logical and regular by-product of it; an intrinsic flaw within the system itself, which rendered the concentration of wealth and political power in the hands of a few privileged rentiers an inevitability that could not be avoided but through some pretty major reshuffling of the economic order. He labelled it the dictatorship of "the international imperialism of money”:


Quadragesimo Anno (May 15, 1931) | PIUS XI


"The ultimate consequences of the individualist spirit in economic life: Free competition has destroyed itself; economic dictatorship has supplanted the free market; unbridled ambition for power has likewise succeeded greed for gain; all economic life has become tragically hard, inexorable, and cruel. To these are to be added the grave evils that have resulted from an intermingling and shameful confusion of the functions and duties of public authority with those of the economic sphere - such as, one of the worst, the virtual degradation of the majesty of the State, which although it ought to sit on high like a queen and supreme arbitress, free from all partiality and intent upon the one common good and justice, is become a slave, surrendered and delivered to the passions and greed of men. And as to international relations, two different streams have issued from the one fountain-head: On the one hand, economic nationalism or even economic imperialism; on the other, a no less deadly and accursed internationalism of finance or international imperialism whose country is where profit is

Restraint enforced vigorously by governmental authority could have banished these enormous evils and even forestalled them; this restraint, however, has too often been sadly lacking. There quickly developed a body of economic teaching far removed from the true moral law, and, as a result, completely free rein was given to human passions...

Just as the unity of human society cannot be founded on an opposition of classes, so also the right ordering of economic life cannot be left to a free competition of forces. For from this source, as from a poisoned spring, have originated and spread all the errors of individualist economic teaching.

Destroying through forgetfulness or ignorance the social and moral character of economic life, it held that economic life must be considered and treated as altogether free from and independent of public authority, because in the market, i.e., in the free struggle of competitors, it would have a principle of self direction which governs it much more perfectly than would the intervention of any created intellect.

But free competition, while justified and certainly useful provided it is kept within certain limits, clearly cannot direct economic life - a truth which the outcome of the application in practice of the tenets of this evil individualistic spirit has more than sufficiently demonstrated. Therefore, it is most necessary that economic life be again subjected to and governed by a true and effective directing principle. This function is one that the economic dictatorship which has recently displaced free competition can still less perform, since it is a headstrong power and a violent energy that, to benefit people, needs to be strongly curbed and wisely ruled. But it cannot curb and rule itself. Loftier and nobler principles - social justice and social charity - must, therefore, be sought whereby this dictatorship may be governed firmly and fully.

There are needs and common goods that cannot be satisfied by the market system. It is the task of the state and of all society to defend them.
"​

(Pope Pius XI, Quadragesimo Anno (“After Forty Years”), 1931 #40)
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
In his Homily on 1 Timothy 12:3–4,71 the early church father St. John Chrysostom (died 407 CE) made the bold statement that "it is utterly impossible to be rich without committing injustice" (οὐκ ἔστιν οὐκ ἔστι μὴ ἀδικοῦντα πλουτεῖν) and moreover said that wealth is tantamount to theft, for ‘its origin must have come from an injustice against someone’, an ἀδικία (Timothy 1, 3, v.3, v. 8; 6, v.10; John Chrysostom in Schaff, 1886, Vol. 13, p.447). He then posed a rhetorical question: ‘Is this not an evil, that you alone should have the Lord’s property, that you alone should enjoy what is common?’, finally concluding: "Not to share one’s wealth with the poor is to steal from them and to take away their livelihood. It is not our own goods which we hold, but theirs" (Hom. in Lazaro 2,5).

Arguably, if you earned $5,000 a day every day, beginning in 1492 when Columbus discovered America, you would probably still have less money than Jeff Bezos. The richest 26 people in the world have as much wealth as the 50% most economically disadvantaged of the global population - all 3.5 billion of the planet's poorest. Jeff Bezos has personal income equivalent to the GDP of a number of sovereign countries, such as New Zealand.

Surely an economic system that enables such gross income disparities to not only exist but widen with every passing year, often to the detriment of the environment to boot, is an inherently 'unjust' one?

The counter-argument, from libertarian free-marketeers, is that the financially well-endowed are specially-talented wealth creators. Jeff Bezos created a service that billions of human beings wanted and so he reaps the dividends.

But the question of acquiring wealth and the question of keeping it are distinct. 'To be rich' is not just about acquisition but retention. Whereas Jeff Bezos has a net worth of $130 billion, George Soros has "only" $8 billion because he has donated more than $32 billion to philanthropic causes.

It’s one thing to claim you ascended the ranks of the 0.01% through talent, thrift and graft. It’s quite another to justify using that wealth for one's own private luxury, with plush houses and greco-roman sculptures of oneself rather than giving aid to people living hand-to-mouth in an effort to pay their exorbitant rents or dying without medical coverage from untreated malaria.

Is there a “maximum moral income” beyond which it’s inexcusable not to give away your superfluous money?

Thank you for posting this. You raise a complex topic that should concern us all.

There are several issues to consider here.

1/ Personal morals and values in regards our attitudes and behaviour towards wealth.

2/ What are the principles and values that should determines our legal and economic framework?

3/ To what extent should religion guide us in answering questions (1) and (2)?

4/ Then we have your excellent question; Is there a “maximum moral income” beyond which it’s inexcusable not to give away your superfluous money?

I couldn’t hope to meaningfully give any of these questions its due. However because its such a great topic I’ll share a few reflections to add to your own.

As you appreciate I like to consider what the writings of my faith have to say as you look to the Catholic Church. I’ve been impressed at how much we have in common. The Central figures of the Baha’i Faith all had enormous concern for the poor.

Baha’u’llah, raised in a family of wealthy noblemen and expected to take a lucrative position as a minister to the Court of the Shah, instead rejected that position and devoted the early part of his adult life to helping the homeless, the hungry and the disenfranchised in Persia. He became known as “The Father of the Poor” as a result of that commitment, and several commentators predicted that Baha’u’llah would soon spend himself and his family into poverty by giving everything they had to those in need. But instead of fearing impoverishment, Baha’u’llah asked everyone to follow that selfless example:

They who are possessed of riches, however, must have the utmost regard for the poor, for great is the honor destined by God for those poor who are steadfast in patience. By My Life! There is no honor, except what God may please to bestow, that can compare to this honor. Great is the blessedness awaiting the poor that endure patiently and conceal their sufferings, and well is it with the rich who bestow their riches on the needy and prefer them before themselves. – Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 202.

When Abdu’l-Baha travelled to the West in the early part of the Twentieth Century – even though he had lived his entire life in the Middle East – he commented frequently on the dire poverty he saw in Europe and North America; gave money and support to charities like Save the Children and many others; visited Skid Row missions and lovingly embraced, encouraged and helped the poor. When the Rector of a London parish asked Abdu’l-Baha what he thought of England, he said:

I find England awake; there is spiritual life here. But your poor are so very poor! This should not be. On the one hand you have wealth, and great luxury; on the other hand men and women are living in the extremities of hunger and want. This great contrast of life is one of the blots on the civilization of this enlightened age. You must turn attention more earnestly to the betterment of the conditions of the poor. Do not be satisfied until each one with whom you are concerned is to you as a member of your family. Regard each one either as a father, or as a brother, or as a sister, or as a mother, or as a child. If you can attain to this, your difficulties will vanish, you will know what to do. This is the teaching of Baha’u’llah. – Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 91.


Abolition of Extremes of Wealth & Poverty

This leads us to addressing question (2). One of the core Baha’i Teachings concerns the elimination of the extremes of wealth and poverty. There will be an abundance of Baha’i writings that will address this.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá said:

Certainly, some being enormously rich and others lamentably poor, an organization is necessary to control and improve this state of affairs. It is important to limit riches, as it is also of importance to limit poverty. Either extreme is not good. To be seated in the mean is most desirable. If it be right for a capitalist to possess a large fortune, it is equally just that his workman should have a sufficient means of existence.

A financier with colossal wealth should not exist whilst near him is a poor man in dire necessity. When we see poverty allowed to reach a condition of starvation it is a sure sign that somewhere we shall find tyranny. Men must bestir themselves in this matter, and no longer delay in altering conditions which bring the misery of grinding poverty to a very large number of the people. The rich must give of their abundance, they must soften their hearts and cultivate a compassionate intelligence, taking thought for those sad ones who are suffering from lack of the very necessities of life.

There must be special laws made, dealing with these extremes of riches and of want. The members of the Government should consider the laws of God when they are framing plans for the ruling of the people. The general rights of mankind must be guarded and preserved.

The government of the countries should conform to the Divine Law which gives equal justice to all. This is the only way in which the deplorable superfluity of great wealth and miserable, demoralizing, degrading poverty can be abolished. Not until this is done will the Law of God be obeyed. – Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 152.

Abolition of Extremes of Wealth & Poverty


So according to Baha’i Teachings government must formulate laws to promote economic fairness. These laws should conform to Divine laws, so the answer to question (3) is clear from a Baha’i perspective.

So to answer your question (4), IMHO the maximum moral income is a matter for each of us to decide based on prayerful consideration of the reality of our own laws. It will vary for each one of us. Laws should not be a substitute for our conscience. On the other hand they should exist to promote principles of fairness and justice and certainly to ameliorate the kinds of gross inequalities that are so readily apparent in the world today.

Thanks again for your OP.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
For someone to have more than you think they need....oh, the humanity!

Audie sits on hands a while saying to herself... no snark no snsrk.

Peopke have very odd ideas of
what rich people do with money. Idle about in luxuty hotels,
no way. They work. Probably harder than any five of their
detractors.

As if anyone is given a million a year to squander!
No facts or info, just foolish hypotheticals


I got in on a trip to Sai Kung a while back on a yacht owned by a many many
times over millionaire with a home at Deepwater Bay. Look that up
to get the idea.

He was on the phone 90 percent of the time, and this was his Sunday
mini vacation!

He got rich because he is always working, loves to work.
And he is out there doing things the little fish have no idea
how to do, still less the financial capacity!

Buildings go up, cargo is loaded, things get done! Who is
going to do it if not people like him. Not government. A
committee of wage earners pooling their savings wont.

(Draw the curtain aside to view burned out govt housing
in Chicago, Soviet apartment blocks)

Oh well, you know this and ideologs live in an alternate
dimension.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Audie sits on hands a while saying to herself... no snsrk no snsrk.

I think purex and far too many othrrs have very odd ideas of
what rich people do with money. Idle about in luxuty hotels,
no way.
They toss coins at the children they run over in their speeding carriages?
 
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