Creation vs. Evolution

inca, i was just trying to figure this out. what religion are you, exactly?

Spinkles, I'm quoting exactly from the magazine specialized in films mentioning the short story Clarke did in that date. In the movie 2001 Space Odysee (if you rent it again) you will see when the astronauts touched the black monolith there was a terrible noise as a kind of alarm.
Victor P: religion comes from a word "religare" meaning to tie up or unite something with God. Probably something missing. It was never meant to be part of a club but something personal. So, I don't have a "logo".

inca, I'm wondering here. Has anyone ever told you that movies aren't real?

Has anybody told you the difference between an example and reality? Read the previous messages to understand the context of the conversation with somebody else. Something to add to the issue Mr. United Atheist? He-he!

inca-- so what exactly do you beleive happened? Is the Earth 6,000 years old etc? I don't think you've adequately accounted for all the humanoid fossils that seem to be a mix of human and ape characteristics.

If humans didn't evolve, then why don't we find any human fossils way back in the fossil record? Why, instead, are there so many fossils that appear to be partly ape, then half ape half human, then partly human, then mostly ape? What is your alternative theory to explain these observations?

Also, inca--could we be a little more civil to others? We all have a passion for this issue...let's be friends anyways though.

As I said before, most of the fossil records don't present evolution not only from hominids into apes but no evolution at all in any specie, there was no transformation from fish to birds or them into reptiles, mammals, etc or evolution in reverse in some cases. All diferent species appear (having the genetic limitations of their kind but in spite of that with capacity of variations within those limits) and dissapear. In the fossil record you can see an explosion of life in different geological strata as layers in a cake, no link between species. All fossils presented parts complete. Even Darwin was aware of this, that's why in his Origin of Species he begged the readers at least 7 times to ignore what fossil evidence was really saying to understand his idea. He expected in his future those fossils would be provided by paleonthologists' shovel. We have now abundancy of fossils but no intermediary connection between them. The so called best examples of evolution had their parts complete, there was no metamorphosis, no transformation, no hocus-pocus miracle, no half-way adaptation. In a nutshell: no evolution. The fact is fossils never proved your faith. You ask me about time, I'll try to respond honestly:

Let's say our universe is 5 billion years old. I really don't trust too much in the data giving by methods used. Because they are not measuring time in first place but activity on time which is different and based upon some speculations. We don't even know when were the sphinx and pyramids constructed and egyptologist get furious when geologists contradict their data cos they see this as interference in their "science" in particular. So, if we can't measure even historical time, I doubt we can measure accurately prehistory. Even measuring ligh years distance it's used paralax method which is trigonometry that should'nt be applied to far away stars but only near stars but if I give more explanation I would be off topic. In spite of this, I don't have much problem in accepting the universe as old as 5 billion years old cos the Creationists never understood this point correctly as Jewish scholar would.
That date is seen only from the perspective of space-time reference of the place we are. :angel:
The kabalistic reference are based WHEN the universe was the size of the mustard seed. :roll: The expansion of the universe changes the temporal perception. Einstein, as a Jew who believed in pantheism and yet wrote personal letters to his friend in reference to Hebrew God applied his intelect to what Judaism knew. In a standard cosmology, if an Et :angel: uses a laser beam to shoot an impulse every second, the recorded information in optical fibers would say "I'm sending an impulse per second" and will repeat the impulse every second. In a universe in expansion that information won't reach its destiny a second later, perhaps it would take billions of years later on depending on the time the light traveled in space. mg: In the books of physic you read the "beginning" of the universe (only accepted by modern science from 1965 on cos prior to that 2/3 of scientists believed in Greek philosophers thinking there was no beginning of the cosmos at all) and time is 1 followed by many zeros. If Torah says "we're sending information every 6 days" the information would be received as 16 billion years (you can even transform X millions of millions days and divide by 365) and the rsult will be equal.
The rythm of acceleration is the Principles of Physic Cosmology: Every time the universe duplicates, the perception of time divides in the middle. When universe was small it duplicated faster, when it gets bigger it takes more time to duplicate.
The first Biblical "day" lasted 24 hours according to Jewish believe, but that is the perspective of the beginning of time itself. In our perspective is 8 billion years. The second day lasted 24 hours (in our point of view that is half of the previous day, or 4 billion years). The 3rd day lasted half the previous (in our perspective 2 billion years old) and so the rest of "days". The understanding of simultaneous times or two different ticking of the superbalck hole and darkness in Genesis account is something proved in kabalistic writings. This is no modern concept or interpretation. Scientist George Ferrows (not a Creationist) calculated the probability against entropy or gravity appearing by itself in a number followed by 123 zeros never happening in nature. He recognizes the universe urges the believe in a "creator". He used that word rather than "god". And of course, this is not an anecdote :drink: cos he was using math which is an exact science though U-know-Who will never understand that.

I discussed the subject about scientific methods and the thread was closed after responses of "socratic method" dodging the issue I was mentioning in detail:
http://egyptologist.org/discuss/messages/8/1766.html?1014780427
The collegues of the biggest Egyptologist Egyptian authority -Dr. Hawass- were irritated with me all over the forum but they couldn't answer my questions or contradict the arguments. Until now my messages under my name Oscar are still there. Others were "erased" conveniently. You'll see my thread was the only one closed in that page:
http://egyptologist.org/discuss/messages/8/8.html?1084755064
In yet another one I was discussing dendrochronology and they left only the last post when I was soliciting an answer to a question but they erased the whole discussion before!
So, even when I don't have problem the POSSIBILITY to apply simulatenous times and the perspective of millions of years in our universe or Earth, it doesn't mean we know everything about it. Wanna know why?

The conversation was this:
Process uranium-lead is expensive, they prefer using the unsafe rubidium-stroncium.Carbon 14 which turns out nitrogen 14 half-life is only 5730 years and ain`t efficient if there was MORE MAGNETIC proportion in the past of the atmosphera (some discuss it happened 4000 years ago),it shouldn`t be used on stone. A dead seal moments after was dated 1300 years old, Siberian mamooth skin (animal which lived 26,000 years ago as suposition)was dated only 5600 years. One of the swiss members in a laboratory measured a recent piece of cloth on his table and the result with this cientific method was 350 years old! Even the pioneers using C-14 didn`t give it the credit now it`s been given. Many people think even nuke disasters affected our atmosphera to the point it altered all measuring of activity in time. Argon-potasium half life is 1300 million years and determines volccanic rock.The scientists have to GUESS the bones beneath rock may be equal data or older. It ain`t exact in dates less than 1 million and they must have faith in using human beings of Pleistocene or believe volcanic action DISSAPEARED ABSOLUTELY ALL original argon in melted lava. If it remains a little bit, cristalyzed, if there was atmospheric pollution, if sediments below are younger..a simple date 5000 is INFLATED 2 and a half million! Proportion between uranium 238 and lead 206 in wood converted coal should be low but it wasn`t in all cases. Potasium,uranium,torium lost of radiactivity can`t be measured in amounts if we don`t know zero point of ORIGINAL CONCENTRATION. The same elements and rubidium-stroncium can be damaged by radiation itself. Aminoacids don`t serve in stones. Also the organic rests can be asimilated or destroyed by organic acids. Zircon crystals formed in magma are difficult to find and geo-chemists grab these as a gift of God. They are trying to find out levogire aminoacids and date with optic stimulated luminiscense.Another method is watching rings of the trees,etc. So please, DON`T TALK ABOUT ABSOLUTS NOR IN HISTORY NEITHER IN PRE-HISTORY.In matter of time we`re watching time with a clock without pointers! This certainly concerns historians,geologists,egyptologists. Maybe you can say, ok,we can trust better astronomers. Can we? They use trigonometry to see distances of far away stars,yet they trust paralex method that should be applied to NEAR STARS.A celestial object would move in relation to set constelations near us when observed from 2 distant points on the surface of the Earth.The smallest angle we can stare naked eye is just a minute of a bow or 1|60 of 1 degree. Einstein said nothing about finite or infinite volume of space.Using cristalography to detect space topology now a new theory rises. It seems billions of galaxies REPEAT images of smaller galaxies. Using hipersphere or poincare space (a kind of dodecaedr)with 120 times smaller volume than hipersphere, they are guessing our universe is like spheric lens,maybe smaller and creating OPTIC ILLUSIONS.We`re like fishes in acuarium.


Brent Benjamin (12.4.169.51)
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 02:02 pm:

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Oscar, it is a common ploy of fringies to be dismissive of all dating techniques which disagree with their agendas. In support of their positions, they posit any number of claimed errors and the like, all the meantime ignoring the vast body of knowledge supporting the controlled tests. I don't know your positions, so I don't apply this to you. However, when you have multiple scientifically (meaning the ability to meet the rigors of objective peer-review) accepted chronological models converging on a discrete time frame for a given article, you have a time frame which it is reasonable to accept. In the OK, C-14 is only one of several models giving the time frame for construction. Those models have been reviewed extensively in past strings.


Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 09:44 pm:

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Great post Brent! You neatly summarized all of the points for the age of the pyramids being correct, while pointing out the flaws in the fringe's thinking. I assume this is the "socratic method" at work?


Brent Benjamin (12.4.169.51)
Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 10:27 pm:

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No, Rick. Not the "socratic method." Rather, the "scientific method."

In that forum, Erik and Brent butter up each other but never answered the questions. In fact, the one who runs the site is friend of one of them. There was another thread closed too. It was someone who wrote about Khufu's math and that issue also irritated the "moderator". About space-time:
A scientist requires more than memorizing formulas, he requires imagination. We have read many times and saw the images in Scientific American and books or other magazines about the deformation of the space, the illustration of the iron ball upon a sheet and the smaller balls been affected by the weigh of the ball on the tissue. No example can really duplicate reality. In this case it’s obvious the “orbits” of smaller balls would stop after a while side by side with the bigger ball. Repeating the experience in space without the effect of gravity (or distant from the Earth whose mass is deforming the space) the iron ball and the rest of balls will float. Kaku imagined the point of view of fishes inside the aquarium if they were taken out from their liquid universe. Hawkings thinks in bubbles connected with other soap bubbles-universes via bridges or wormholes. Hence, I would like to use the “liquid” example AND CONTINUE TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA HOW SCIENCE IS SOLD TO US:
A blue ping-pong ball represents Earth, other balls are floating in a swimming pool filled with black ink or black paint rather than crystal water. Jupiter can be represented as an orange basketball. You can spread colorful dust above the black liquid surface in your imagination.
Meanwhile, Mr self-centered Mr Q-virus dwelling on blue ping-pong ball discusses “you’re talking trees…” and virus-Oscar (Inca) replies “don’t worry, several virus are already talking about the ‘theory of everything’ cos all is linked to each other, besides some other virus are saying the planet-balls are changing position and are behaving strange just like the big yellow fire-ball Sun”. Other Virus-participant exclaims ‘Prove it!’ Oscar-virus answers: “it’s difficult to know for sure, we have sent our telescopes and satellites which are big and yet in virus-scale and to see what is going on from this corner of the swimming pool is like using a micro-camera in a corner of a baseball stadium, no panoramic comprehension! You can send cesium watches, devices, but the results are gonna be pretty similar to our ping-pong blue ball. When the device is reaching the Sun-ball the virus salute each other watching the things in their virus scale. They take photographs of the “universe”:
http://users.skynet.be/sky03361/html2/trip2.html
You know what, there are other virus saying there’s a hole in the center of the swimming pool and they say it’s actually swallowing liquid black space like virus-actor Hannibal Canibal Anthony Hopkins. I don’t think we’re gonna know for sure how is this thing change our position (and therefore our time as observed in each ball), but I guess we’re approaching to a position in which the acceleration will come due to the whirlpool”. “In fact”, he adds, “it will be like the orbits of the balls are getting too close to each other, closer and closer before entering and be sucked by the swimming pool’s mouth”.www.nasca.org/uk/danger/danger.html
Mr-Q-Virus answers: “You’re insane, are you stone or something?” “That’s the Great Atractor or group of superclusters (greater than 10^15 solar masses) which is pulling Milky Way (only 15 Mpc in length) towards it at 600,000 mls”. “Yap!, but I’m not talking JUST about the Milky Way, I’m taking about the whole black liquid in the universal swimming pool, the spiral, the Fibonacci, like the virus who’s placed in the first song of the vinyl record and traveling at the same revolutions per minute than the virus placed in the last song, when they start to walk around the axis or center of the vinyl record there are three times, the time of the movement of the record itself (45 revolutions by minute), the long time the virus of the first song requires to walk above the vinyl record to complete a circle, and the shorter time to do the same for the virus who’s walking in the last song in smaller diameter, got it?”
At the very same time the virus-astronauts out from blue ping-pong ball’s ionosphere start to feel awfully bad because the lack of natural pulsation of 7,8 cycles in the same wave of their virus-cerebral masses as Shumann waves, electric storms cause severe damage in their virus-hearts. They get back to ping-pong blue pall to correct some damages in artificial generators of Shumann waves.
Yet, without these virus know, other virus in other part of the blue ping-pong ball are arguing the borders of the swimming pool were made of mirror, so they guess the reflection gave the false impression of a bigger swimming pool with more black ink or black paint liquid space. Somewhere else, the Russian-virus and a fistful of American-virus went beyond and shout: “The swimming pool is not rectangular, circular, or with the shape of a guitar but it seems to be a dodecahedron”.
Oscar-virus continues: “Don’t you worry, country-fellow-virus self-MR Q, we’re probably gonna pass through the whirlpool black hole in the middle of the swimming pool and though millions will perish (too shaky) and there will be survivors cos the black liquid will go into other swimming pool, everything will preserve. Yet the other swimming pool is built in different way and various levels and submitted to currents running in opposite directions. “What? Are you nuts? Don’t you know everything will be collapsed and we will all be transformed into spaguetti-virus stretched by the gravity and supersingularity of that wormhole?”
“Wait a second” –answer an intruder virus- “it all depends if the vehicle blue ping-pong-Earth passes through the ring or border of the hole”…Yet, other virus desperate outcries “no, this ain’t real, it’s just an hologram, in fact every ball and all inhabitant virus of the swimming pool (even the ones existing into our image and resemblance in the balls beyond) are just part of the game of light, the hologram gave the illusion of dodecahedron swimming pool, the black liquid in it, the mirror borders and everything else, if someone who is not light tries to touch the illusion, there will be nothing there and it will pass through the illusion…A virus in the middle of the conference asks: “what causes the hologram?” Nobody knows and everybody shut up and a silent virus doesn’t even dare to ask if there’s something unique that is not illusion, something in fact REAL, a belt of photons, a crystal or God…and the virus discussion continues ad infinitum…

So when you think about physics & metaphysics, space and time, we're entering in the realm of speculation , contradictory ideas and the use of exact science in math but interpreted in different ways according to the licking of particular scientist. And sometimes you ask yourself how can you distinguish science from science fiction and philosophy like Descartes or Imanuel Kant if everything is an illusion or if time can exist in time itself or space within space, etc, something I discussed in my Spanish site regarding the first film Matrix in:
www.therealmatrix.cjb.net
www.therealmatrix.rg3.net
Though I wrote pretty much in Portuguese as well and perhaps Russian in the future. Yet I can make the things even more complex for the evolutionists if I quote this:
www.expanding-earth.org

OOOPS, I wrote "licking" instead of "liking"!

If 1% of the readers is capable and patiente enough to read 21 pages of that site, that would be good. Yet it's not the only one with this idea. To say the story in a nutshell:
The Earth has been expanding as well like the Universe. It once had the shape of an egg and now is getting flatter in the poles and has a bigger belly in Equator area. The "days" were shorter and the "years" were different (you were asking about time, weren't you?) and so the uniformitarian theory saying the present is the key to understand the past is also a flaw cos we don't know the events of the past; we are unsure of how Earth came into existence or even the Moon. We ignore the forces splitting Pangea continent or the gravity allowing the supercontinent in first place. If a meteor wiped out dinosaurs and other species, the very mass had to be added to the Earth and the planet was affected too. There's evidence in the bubbles of air preserved in amber that the amount of oxygen was different from now and perhaps not only the ticking of time (days and years) is completely based upon hypothesis but there's no way to know (only guess) even density, atmosphere and gravity was completely different from now and that would explain the gigantism (not as isolated mutation) of dinosaurs and even cockroaches , birds the size of horses, plants, etc. Something that should've been explained by geologists in first place and not paleonthologist! Elephants were dwarfs compared with sauroposseidon and yet some of the dinosaurs were faster than a baby elephant that has problems to get out of mud sometimes or even can't breath in certain position. I have discussed the issue with specialists and they are always irritated, so if anyone wants to open a new thread trying to prove me wrong, go ahead, make my day! All what I write is not to give the impression we know enough. All the opposite, is to make clear that everything you took for granted as truth maybe is not and we need to know a lot in order to set the pieces of the huge jigsaw puzzle in order. It ain't easy, I tell ya.

:lol: :lol:

inca, that is the most bizarre bunch of rambling I've ever heard. You didn't answer my question, so I'll post it again.

If humans didn't evolve, then why don't we find any human fossils way back in the fossil record? Why, instead, are there so many fossils that appear to be partly ape, then half ape half human, then partly human, then mostly ape? What is your alternative theory to explain these observations?

In Genesis, creation means regeneration of by God. Evolution is of the natrual world. They are connect by correspondences. The natural world was here before Adam and Eve. They were not the first people one earth. Where did Mrs Cain come? The story of Adam and Eve are representation of the first church on earth. The natrual world was already here when the book of Genesis was written.

Genesis 1: 1. In the beginning God created the heavens [coelum] and the earth. The most ancient time is called "the beginning." By the prophets it is in various places called the "days of old" [antiquitatis] and also the "days of eternity."

The "beginning" also involves the first period when man is being regenerated, for he is then born anew, and receives life. Regeneration itself is therefore called a "new creation" of man.

The expressions to "create" to "form" to "make" in almost all parts of the prophetic writings signify to regenerate, yet with a difference in the signification.

As in Isaiah:
Everyone that is called by My name, I have created him for My glory, I have formed him, yea, I have made him (Isa. 43:7).

And therefore the Lord is called the "Redeemer" the "Former from the womb" the "Maker" and also the "Creator;" as in the same Prophet:
I am Jehovah your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King (Isa. 43:15).

In David:
The people that is created shall praise Jah (Ps. 102:18).
Again:
Thou sendest forth Thy spirit, they are created, and Thou renewest the faces of the ground (Ps. 104:30).

That "heaven" signifies the internal man, and "earth" the external man before regeneration.

Harry

Genesis 2:2. And the earth was a void and emptiness, and darkness was upon the faces of the deep [abyssi]; and the Spirit of God was brooding upon the faces of the waters.

Before his regeneration, man is called the "earth void and empty" and also the "ground" wherein nothing of good and truth has been sown; "void" denotes where there is nothing of good, and "empty" where there is nothing of truth. Hence comes "thick darkness" that is, stupidity, and an ignorance of all things belonging to faith in the Lord, and consequently of all things belonging to spiritual and heavenly life.

Such a man is described by the Lord through Jeremiah:
My people is stupid, they have not known Me.They are foolish sons, and are not intelligent; they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. I beheld the earth, and lo a void and emptiness, and the heavens, and they had no light (Jer. 4:22-23).

Harry

inca said:

no hocus-pocus miracle

Click to expand...

how true how true... :lol:

wa:-do

We have to surrender to evidence objectively whether we like it or not. If you can't do that, you don't have a scientific attitude but you're dogmatic always believing what you want to believe.

Funny, you don’t follow your own advice.

I know I will hate to change some ideas but I will in behalf of science, not my prefered and beloved imaginary mental toy to play with during decades in order to satisfy my own ego.

Let us know when you do decide to change some of your ideas.

Let's say our universe is 5 billion years old. I really don't trust too much in the data giving by methods used.

Do you even understand the data or the methods used?

Because they are not measuring time in first place but activity on time which is different and based upon some speculations.

Confirmed. You don’t understand the date or the methods.

The rythm of acceleration is the Principles of Physic Cosmology: Every time the universe duplicates, the perception of time divides in the middle. When universe was small it duplicated faster, when it gets bigger it takes more time to duplicate.

Your capacity to shovel it higher and deeper gets higher and deeper all the time.

Scientist George Ferrows (not a Creationist) calculated the probability against entropy or gravity appearing by itself in a number followed by 123 zeros never happening in nature. He recognizes the universe urges the believe in a "creator". And of course, this is not an anecdote cos he was using math which is an exact science though U-know-Who will never understand that.

You’ll need to provide a source for this – I want to see that math.

A scientist requires more than memorizing formulas, he requires imagination.

Yes, but a credible scientist will not allow his imagination to rule his logic, as does people like Hoagland and Van Flandern.

We have read many times and saw the images in Scientific American and books or other magazines about the deformation of the space, the illustration of the iron ball upon a sheet and the smaller balls been affected by the weigh of the ball on the tissue

That is reference to general relativity – the ball and sheet analogy is used to describe GR to laymen.

Kaku imagined the point of view of fishes inside the aquarium if they were taken out from their liquid universe. Hawkings thinks in bubbles connected with other soap bubbles-universes via bridges or wormholes.

Please remember these guys are sensationalists selling books that WOW the laymen. I can see that it works, too.

…and the virus discussion continues ad infinitum…

That was quite a ramble – it made no sense at all but it was quite a ramble, nonetheless.

So when you think about physics & metaphysics, space and time, we're entering in the realm of speculation

Don’t confuse physics with metaphysics – it is only metaphysics in which speculation is logic.

And sometimes you ask yourself how can you distinguish science from science fiction and philosophy

It’s clear to me that you have yet to distinguish science from science fiction. I’ll give you a hint; it’s not on TV or in movies.

Yet I can make the things even more complex for the evolutionists if I quote this If 1% of the readers is capable and patiente enough to read 21 pages of that site, that would be good. Yet it's not the only one with this idea.

Eventually Mankind will be forced to migrate to a new home on Mars before Earth grows to the size of Neptune.

Click to expand...

ROTFLMAO! Coffee… through nose… laptop… clean up…

painted wolf said:

inca said:

no hocus-pocus miracle

Click to expand...

how true how true... :lol:

wa:-do

Click to expand...

The Holy Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation was written in correspondences. In order to understand the Word you have the knowledge of correspondences.The science of correspondences and representatives was the chief science among the ancients; especially among the eastern nations.In Egypt more than elsewhere. Likewise among the Gentiles, as in Greece and other places, however, that science is among the lost sciences, particularly in Europe.

The idolatries of nations in ancient times arose from the study of correspondences among them for the reason that everything appearing on the earth has a correspondence-as, for instance, not only trees, but also animals and birds of every kind, as well as fish, and so on.

The ancients, who had a knowledge of correspondences, made images for themselves that corresponded to spiritual things, and they took delight in them, because they symbolized such things as had to do with heaven and so with the church.

They put images like this not only in their temples but also in their houses, not as objects of worship, but to remind them of the heavenly things which they symbolized.

In Egypt they therefore set up images of calves, bulls, snakes, children, old people,and maidens, among other things, because a calf symbolized the innocence of the natural person, bulls the affections of the natural person, snakes the prudence of the sensual person, a child signifies innocence, old people wisdom, maidens affections for truth, and so forth.

After a knowledge of correspondences was there extinguished, their descendants-who did not know what these things symbolized-began to worship the images and figures set up by the ancients, first as holy objects, and finally as deities, because they were placed in and around temples.

The hieroglyphics of the Egyptians came from the same origin. So did other similar things in other nations-such as Dagon with the Philistines in Ashdod, whose upper half was like that of a man and its lower half like that of a fish. This image was invented because a man symbolizes rational intelligence and a fish natural knowledge.

The correspondences of the Lord's words, in John "My Father and I are one", means this that the Soul and Body are one in Jesus Christ.

The five foolish virgin without oil in their lamps correspondences to those who are in faith alone,without charity. The lamp correspondences to faith,charity means love.

May I ask a question: When is this guy going to stop drinking? :drink:

Harry

Quote: › Select ›‹ Expand
Eventually Mankind will be forced to migrate to a new home on Mars before Earth grows to the size of Neptune.


ROTFLMAO! Coffee… through nose… laptop… clean up…

Click to expand...

Better quit drinking coffee while you read these, Q
:drink: :lol: