What constitutes a Prophet of the God of Abraham?

Windwalker said:

But when it comes to this verse, talking about spiritual deceptions, (as opposed to just general big lies like claiming election fraud without any proofs of it), the issue requires more than just a critical analysis of the mind. It requires seeing if their behaviors match their words.

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And to do that you need critical thinking skills since it requires careful analysis and comparison of a set of data with a carefully defined and understood standard. That's the very definition of critical thinking. If you do that, you do not have faith in them. You trust them based on their apparent behavior after due consideration just like you would trust any other person's morality or the quality of a machine.

epronovost said:

And to do that you need critical thinking skills since it requires careful analysis and comparison of a set of data with a carefully defined and understood standard. That's the very definition of critical thinking. If you do that, you do not have faith in them. You trust them based on their apparent behavior after due consideration just like you would trust any other person's morality or the quality of a machine.

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That type of critical analysis, is not how human beings have relationships with others. That's only a side spec, when it comes to interpersonal relationships. You don't critically analyze your way into love, nor to maintain a good relationship. We use our feeling senses for that, emotional, intuitions, vibes, and other intangible, subtle and nuanced means of knowledge that bypass the clumsily slow mental processes following rules of logic set forth for us through training.

So why all of that is more important than critical thinking, is because manipulators of information can play with the data in such a way as it can pass the muster of 'reason' for enough people not sufficiently informed of the ways in which he or she is subtly manipulating information to deceive you. Something more fundamental than being a highly informed and skilled critical thinker (it's something you develop, a skill), needs to suffice for the average person who falls short from that, to not be made vulnerable due to that shortcoming of the mind.

I think the point of Jesus's teaching is really more directed at those who are exposed to religious peddlers. People's hearts are easily preyed upon by charlatans, when it comes to promises of the Divine. That is a huge, existential pull upon a great many people. It is easy for your critical thinking mind to shut itself right down, when the heart tugs at you hard enough. And when it does, all that follows that act is just the mind's rationalizing away its not wanting to face it's not the real ruler in our lives. The 'ruled by reason' human is largely a myth. Mr. Spock's character is a commentary on that human truth.

It's especially advisable to tell seekers of a spiritual path to beware of religious peddlers, saying to remember to match their actions with their words. Observe them carefully. Be advised. Your heart may make you vulnerable. I find it therefore relevant in context, to that audience. I'm not sure why you seem so disdainful of it.

Marcion said:

In the oldest sayings ascribed to Jesus himself (so not one of those put into his mouth later on), Jesus says that he is 'one with his Father' (God) and that his direct followers are better off than the prophets were because those prophets had not met Jesus.

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"Sayings attributed to Jesus" is not necessarily what Jesus ever said, but even if Jesus said that He was the only One who was One with the Father. Baha'is believe that all the Manifestations of God were One with the Father since they were all sent by the Father and all their acts and doings were identical with the Will of the Father.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that the Manifestation of God, in this case Jesus, and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to the Manifestation of God, all His acts and doings, as well as whatever He ordains and forbids, is identical with the Will of God Himself.

That is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Marcion said:

So, the frame created by Islam and the one created by Bahai are religious frames that suit their ideology, it supports their claim to superiority.

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I cannot speak for Muslim ideology, but Baha'is do not believe that Baha'u'llah was superior to any or the other Prophets/Messengers/Manifestations of God, and that is am important part of our theology.

"Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

Yahcubs777 said:

Jesus His Pre-Eminence revealed many times HIS identity. But ive gone through this so many times. Go back through any number of my posts and youll see the answer i gave.

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Yes, Jesus did reveal His identity. Go back to my post #51 and you will see His identity.
You do not determine the identity of Jesus, Jesus revealed that through what He said.
Jesus never said He was God, Christianity made Him into God with their doctrines.

Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?

(To see a titled list of over fifty, two-three page posts (easily accessible) about the Bible not saying Jesus is God, click here.)

Trailblazer said:

Yes, Jesus did reveal His identity. Go back to my post #51 and you will see His identity.
You do not determine the identity of Jesus, Jesus revealed that through what He said.
Jesus never said He was God, Christianity made Him into God with their doctrines.

Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?

(To see a titled list of over fifty, two-three page posts (easily accessible) about the Bible not saying Jesus is God, click here.)

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I am not determining anything, What can i determine? I am saying that HE revealed HE is GOD many times.

Trailblazer said:

Yes, Jesus did reveal His identity. Go back to my post #51 and you will see His identity.
You do not determine the identity of Jesus, Jesus revealed that through what He said.
Jesus never said He was God, Christianity made Him into God with their doctrines.

Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?

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As I wrote in my previous posting, Jesus said about himself that he was one with the Father, so it was not Christianity that invented his divinity. They only switched his divinity from a more esoteric viewpoint to a more exoteric Son of God and added the idea that he was one with the Holy Spirit as well (Holy Spirit is actually just a more philosophical way of describing God as the Cosmic Consciousness who dreams up the universe).

I can understand that Bahai would want to stay in line with Islam which denies the divinity of Jesus and degrades him to a mere prophet. Jesus and his first followers however saw him as spiritually one with the Father (God).
Of course you need not accept that but then you have to view him as an imposter or a deluded master.

Marcion said:

I can understand that Bahai would want to stay in line with Islam which denies the divinity of Jesus and degrades him to a mere prophet.

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That is not the view given by Baha'u'llah in any way shape or form.

What is believed is under this spoiler.


That is but one of many thoughts about Jesus the Christ in the Baha'i Writings, who was the 'Self of God' amongst us 2000 years ago and has returned again as the 'Self of God' as the Father.

From a Baha'i perspective, there are three kinds of Prophets.

"The Three Kinds of Prophets

QUESTION: HOW MANY kinds of divine Prophets are there?

Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars."

Regards Tony

Yahcubs777 said:

I am not determining anything, What can i determine? I am saying that HE revealed HE is GOD many times.

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Show me the verses where Jesus revealed that He was God.

Marcion said:

As I wrote in my previous posting, Jesus said about himself that he was one with the Father, so it was not Christianity that invented his divinity.

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Being one with the Father does not mean Jesus was the Father.
Jesus did not say "I am the Father." If Jesus believed He was the Father that is what He would have said, but He didn't say that, ever.

Jesus was a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21) meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that the Manifestation of God, in this case Jesus, and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to the Manifestation of God, all His acts and doings, as well as whatever He ordains and forbids, is identical with the Will of God Himself.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Marcion said:

I can understand that Bahai would want to stay in line with Islam which denies the divinity of Jesus and degrades him to a mere prophet. Jesus and his first followers however saw him as spiritually one with the Father (God).

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Baha'is do not view Jesus as a mere prophet, we believe He was a Manifestation of God who had a twofold nature. Mere prophets such as Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel did not have a twofold nature, only Manifestations of God have a twofold nature.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

Christians want to believe Jesus was God or the only Manifestation of God that has ever walked the face of the earth so that can maintain a position of superiority, so it is not the Baha'is or Muslims who are trying to be superior because we both believe that there have been other Messengers of God besides the ones who established our respective religions, and Baha'is do not believe that any of these Messengers were superior to any other.

Trailblazer said:

Show me the verses where Jesus revealed that He was God.

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#213 #220

Yahcubs777 said:

#213 #220

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I see nothing in those posts where Jesus identified Himself as God. One reason among many that we know Jesus was not God is because many men saw Jesus and Jesus said that no man has ever seen God:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

adrian009 said:

This is a discussion and debate mostly for followers of Abrahamic Faiths though others are free to contribute as well. The concept of a Prophet is well developed in Abrahamic scriptures including the Tanakh, New Testament and Quran.

There are numerous examples of Prophets in the Tanakh, the better known being Noah, Abraham and Moses but many others besides such as Isaiah, Daniel and Ezekiel. The Christian New Testament affirms the Jewish Prophets, advocates Jesus as being a Prophet and much more. The NT introduces the concept of the Apostle. Examples of Apostles are Paul, Peter and James. The Apostles have similarities with Prophets.

The Islamic Quran affirms the concept of Prophets and makes distinction between Prophets such as Moses and Jesus that are Founders of religion with Prophets that come under their shadow. Some of the Prophets in the Hebrew Bible are specifically mentioned along with others.

The concept of a Prophet has significance when considering newer religious movements such as the Baha’i Faith, Ahmadis, and Mormons whose founders each make controversial claims based on the concept of Prophethood.

So I thought on a religious forum it would be useful to consider what various religious scriptures have to say about the concept of what a Prophet is and what it isn’t. The discussion need not be limited to the scriptures of the three main Abrahamic Faiths. I know there are other faiths with sacred writings or scriptures outside these religions that allude in part to the concept of the Prophet. So do feel free to make references to any recognised scriptures.

Will we agree on what constitutes a Prophet based on scriptures? Probably not, but for me it will be a much more interesting discussion than some of the other topics on offer.

I’ll kick off with a couple of Biblical quotes:

1/ When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Deuteronomy 18:22

2/ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:15-20

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Revelation (a chapter of the New Testament bible) said don't attack Iraq or face the wrath of God (including Revelation 15: COVID and 6 other plagues).

God had already written the bible, and it already contained all the warnings that it had to contain "thou shalt not kill," "turn the other cheek," and that is because God knows the future, and God could tell that it was a huge mistake to attack Iraq. But God knew that he had to send prophets to earth to remind people of what they already knew (don't attack Iraq).


When President W. Bush was about to defy God and attack Iraq (against God's specific orders not to), God sent his prophets. Miracle prophets walked among us in modern times, but no one acknowledged them.

The prophets of God, in our modern times, just like in the old days, were forced to be humble. They were not allowed to brag that they were prophets of God. God would punish them if they tried to take credit for their gift of divine psychic insight. God didn't want people to worship the psychics or diminish sole devotion to God, and bragging might cause people to worship the psychics and worship God less.

You know that te modern prophets were correct, because they had exactly the same message of Revelation (don't attack Iraq or face God's wrath). The only reason God sent prophets to earth in modern time is that it was a turning point....the beginning of end times, when God's wrath would wipe out all life on Earth and God wanted to give one last warning not to attack Iraq (that warning was from his modern day prophets).

Those prophets were afraid of God, afraid of ridicule from others who thought that they might be crazy, afraid of other prophets who they predicted (by screen name) to meet on the internet. When they saw each other's screen names in chat rooms, they knew that they were fellow psychics of God.

As they got to know other psychics, they played psychic games with each other. They would put their hands on the computer screens and wiggle their fingers, and the psychic on the other screen (thousands of miles away) would feel their fingers wiggle. They would hold up fingers in the air and the other psychics would count their fingers and tell them how many fingers they held up. They would astral project to each other's houses (sometimes embarrassing if unannounced), and introduce themselves and chat for a bit.

I know that it seemed like play, but the psychics of God were beginning to wonder if they might be crazy. They were beginning to wonder if their visions were true. For years before God gave them the mission to stop the war in Iraq, God gave them visions of other things, so that they would learn to trust their psychic abilities. For example, Mary worked for the CIA (Central Intelligence Agency) and was famous (in covert circles) for locating a sunken Russian nuclear submarine. When the space shuttle crashed, another psychic of God predicted it, and predicted where it would break up, where it would crash, and the reason (loose heat tile) that it crashed. Some psychics worked for ARE (Edgar Cayce's Association for Research and Enlightenment). Talking to each other, the psychics of God realized that they were not crazy, but they had an important message from God to deliver to the world.

Each and every psychic of God would probe the psyche of President George W. Bush, and they got cold shivers. The soul of President W. Bush was extremely evil and extremely powerful, just as Revelation (a chapter of the bible) said it would be. Revelation said that there were a couple of demons from the bottomless pit of hell that would attack Iraq (their names were the dragon and the beast, and the bible says that they were father and son). George W. Bush is the beast, according to the bible.

The psychics of God said that President W. Bush and his aides were drunk when they decided to attack Iraq. It comes as no surprise that war was made, that innocent lives were lost, that a torture camp was created.

Of course Satan gets power from deception and greed, and uses that power to destroy God's environment and make wars. Satan ignores the suffering homeless, and pampers the mammon greedy rich. Satan doesn't go around healing the sick, as Jesus did.

The public believed that giving money to the rich would help the poor (trickle-down)--obviously Satan's lie. They believed that there was no torture at Guantanamo because Satan redefined the word "torture" so that no torture could ever exist anywhere.

The psychics of God were amazed that the public were taken in by the lies of Satan. But, this is the power of Satan.

A prophet of God is known by his/her fruits, and Satan is known by his fruits.

Trailblazer said:

"Sayings attributed to Jesus" is not necessarily what Jesus ever said, but even if Jesus said that He was the only One who was One with the Father. Baha'is believe that all the Manifestations of God were One with the Father since they were all sent by the Father and all their acts and doings were identical with the Will of the Father.

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You believe that frame because you believe in the teachings of your beloved Bahaullah.
I prefer the frame of my own Ba'ba' (Lord Anandamurti) who doesn't mention any prophets in His teachings.
When however I read the genuine teachings of Jesus, they seem to be fully compatible with Ba'ba's teachings but not with later Christian teachings that your Bahaullah seems to support.

That is why I cannot support the frame of successive prophets in which Bahaullah places Jesus.
Having said that, Ba'ba' has a parallel type of framing of successive spiritual authorities, but these are all from India.
And as I admire the more universal approach, I don't want to be critical of Bahaullah's efforts.

Yahcubs777 said:

Its like everyone quotes this without any understanding.

What did Jesus His Pre-Eminence mean when HE said:The law and the Prophets?
Why wasn't Moses books included with the Prophets if he is a Prophet?

If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:
'
The like unto me, ,means the kind of Prophet that will lead the whole global community of the children of the kingdom to the Promised Land.

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Do you think station of Moses was higher than a prophet?

InvestigateTruth said:

Do you think station of Moses was higher than a prophet?

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No. The Law Moses, is defining the body.
The Prophet Elijah, is the Spirit.

The Spirit, is the leader, the head of the body.
Without the Spirit in the body, the body lies motionless.

When Moses said to a people that had been following him around the wilderness for 40 years, that parted the red sea, that showed them many wonderful things, that another will lead them, it was not a small thing. The People felt a certain way, especially because they had been circling the wilderness for 40 years. That Revelation was not so easy for Moses to bring out.

Because it simply means: That Moses could not get job done. So GOD will send another to do it; someone superior.

Moses died and did not make it into Jericho;
Elijah travelled from Gilgal to Bethel, Bethel to Jericho, Jericho to Jordan and across, and transfigured in life.

Therefore, in terms of heirarchy, the Law represented the Levitical Priesthood.
The Prophet, theMelchizadek Priesthood.

And the Melchizadek Priesthood is greater than the levitical.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

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Trailblazer said:

Baha'is do not view Jesus as a mere prophet, we believe He was a Manifestation of God who had a twofold nature. Mere prophets such as Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel did not have a twofold nature, only Manifestations of God have a twofold nature.

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Either one of you can answer this. I have no problem with Baha'is saying that Jesus or Baha'u'llah are a "perfect" reflection of God and had a two-fold nature. However, if Baha'is include Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha or Muhammad in there, then... I don't see it. Show me why any of them are more than a Holy man, a sage, or an ordinary prophet? New cycles? A new religion? East and West flooded with light? Sent forth to the entire world? What religion and what book did Adam, Noah and Abraham bring? Even Moses, do you really think he wrote the first five books of the Bible? And did he "found" Judaism? Muhammad, sure he had a book and a religion. But were Moses and Muhammad "perfectly" polished mirrors? I doubt it. Prophets? Sure, but I don't think they, even by their own followers, were ever considered "manifestations".

So why do Baha'is elevate them to this higher level of having a "two-fold" nature? Especially those others, Adam, Noah, and Abraham. Buddha should be yet another category. I thought he found a way for any one to reach enlightenment. He didn't teach that others could gain "manifestationhood". Then the one I left out, Krishna. He was not a manifestation but an incarnation. And he was only one of many. And Baha'is don't include any of the other incarnations of Vishnu on any of their lists of manifestations.

For me, the Baha'i Faith is just trying to find a way to make all religions seem like they are "one". Baha'is make them all come from the same source, the Abrahamic God. But that God doesn't fit very well with all religions. So Baha'is have to make him fit into religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. All it accomplishes is it forces Baha'is to have to explain their way out of tons of contradictory Scriptures from the other religions. It makes for some great debates. But it kind of defeats the purpose of bringing people of all religions together, because, whether they want to or not, whether they believe it or not, the Baha'i Faith doesn't really believe in any of the other religions.

They believe all of them have gone astray and are teaching false beliefs and have created false doctrines. You're maybe the only Baha'i that has said things like that... that it's time to move on. Those religions might have been right ages ago. They might have helped many people, but they are not the religion of today. I think that is being more honest, but it still isn't going to make a lot of friends with the people of the other religions.

From my study of the Kabbalah and Jewish esoteric sources, I propose a prophet is one who has viewed the heavenly throne and assemblies, and recognized that there is an after life of which we all have a share in. Prophets such as Enoch, Ezekiel, and Daniel come to mind, among others. The Merkhabah Throne theophanies are among the most profound and interesting prophetic insights into helping our souls acquire Godly knowledge in all of Kabbalah. The proper prayer with Kavanah is also extremely important, even with a prophetic insight or without one.

Acquiring the visions of the great mystic and prophetic dignitaries of the Kabbalistic tradition, the three foremost, Enoch, Ezekiel, and Daniel is what I would call one aspect of what a prophet is. Elijah in the Zohar also has a major role to play in showing that a prophet is a revealer, a helper, and a visionary.

CG Didymus said:

Then the one I left out, Krishna. He was not a manifestation but an incarnation. And he was only one of many. And Baha'is don't include any of the other incarnations of Vishnu on any of their lists of manifestations.

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Rama gets nearly the same amount of worship as Krishna, and most certainly He's at the same level, according to Hindus. Besides that, all the sects of Hinduism besides Vaishnavism are ignored entirely. I'm happy with that. I don't feel the need to be part of this invented tribe.

Good to see you're still at it, offering up the alternative POV. You must feel outnumbered at times.

Marcion said:

I prefer the frame of my own Ba'ba' (Lord Anandamurti) who doesn't mention any prophets in His teachings.

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So you have someone you refer to and consider an authority on these matters just as I have somebody, Baha'u'llah, who I consider an authority. From a logical point of view, it seems as if the important question is whether Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, the Voice of God, because if He was that would mean that whatever He wrote is the truth about Prophets, and Jesus, and everything else.

At some point in our lives we all have to pick a belief, or we can remain undecided. I picked my belief over 50 years ago and I have found no reason to switch.