What constitutes a Prophet of the God of Abraham?

[CG Didymus]

I see sharing what Baha'u'llah offered is Honest

You asked me to read the Kitab'i'Iquan and in the very beginning it make it sound like Noah lived for 950 years. You said that his "dispensation" lasted 950 years. But Shoghi Effendi said it wasn't his dispensation. So what is the honest truth?

The Baha'i Faith is not just trying to find a way to make all religions seem like they are "one."

Although it is a Baha’i teaching that all religions came from the same source, God, it is not true that the only differences between them are the social teachings.

A Baha'i article said...

For teaching that there is one God, one religion and one humanity, Baha’u’llah endured many hardships and long years in prison. He bore chains around his neck in order to free us, and the generations to come, from the chains of prejudice, bigotry and enmity. Two Kinds of Religious Truth Baha’is believe that two kinds of religious truth exist: essential spiritual truth, and temporary social constructs and laws. The latter may include things like laws of conduct, diet, institutions, ceremonies, and other various social necessities. These may change dramatically over time. Essential spiritual truth, however, does not change: The religion of God has two aspects in this world. The spiritual (the real) and the formal (the outward). The formal side changes, as man changes from age to age. The spiritual side which is the Truth, never changes. The Prophets and Manifestations of God bring always the same teaching; at first men cling to the Truth but after a time they disfigure it. The Truth is distorted by man-made outward forms and material laws. The veil of substance and worldliness is drawn across the reality of Truth. - Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, pp. 56-57.
​

One religion is mentioned. Social laws versus spiritual laws and teaching are mentioned. It says that spiritual truth doesn't change, so the only difference should be the social part of the religion shouldn't it? So all the major religions came from one source, God. The spiritual teachings were essentially the same, so why wouldn't "God's" religions be one? With the only differences being some social laws that differed depending on the time and place and the culture of the people? Although, I think religions changed because a lot of religious truth came from people, not from the God or a God or Gods. I think each culture made up their own ideas about the Gods and what is spiritual truth. And I'd say it "evolved" rather than a God "progressively" revealing it to people who then messed it up and interpreted it wrong.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You asked me to read the Kitab'i'Iquan and in the very beginning it make it sound like Noah lived for 950 years. You said that his "dispensation" lasted 950 years. But Shoghi Effendi said it wasn't his dispensation. So what is the honest truth?

The Truth is there is no official interpretation and that I see it may refer to a dispensation, is, as I noted above, the way I currently see it and that is fine, as it is not an official interpretation, I was just offing my reconciliation. Shoghi Effendi did not offer any interpretation but to say that numbers have many meanings in scriptures, to which I see is sound advice.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The Truth is there is no official interpretation and that I see it may refer to a dispensation, is, as I noted above, the way I currently see it and that is fine, as it is not an official interpretation, I was just offing my reconciliation. Shoghi Effendi did not offer any interpretation but to say that numbers have many meanings in scriptures, to which I see is sound advice.

Regards Tony

okay, thanks

 

[CG Didymus]

This is a discussion and debate mostly for followers of Abrahamic Faiths though others are free to contribute as well. The concept of a Prophet is well developed in Abrahamic scriptures including the Tanakh, New Testament and Quran.

There are numerous examples of Prophets in the Tanakh, the better known being Noah, Abraham and Moses but many others besides such as Isaiah, Daniel and Ezekiel. The Christian New Testament affirms the Jewish Prophets, advocates Jesus as being a Prophet and much more. The NT introduces the concept of the Apostle. Examples of Apostles are Paul, Peter and James. The Apostles have similarities with Prophets.

The Islamic Quran affirms the concept of Prophets and makes distinction between Prophets such as Moses and Jesus that are Founders of religion with Prophets that come under their shadow. Some of the Prophets in the Hebrew Bible are specifically mentioned along with others.

The concept of a Prophet has significance when considering newer religious movements such as the Baha’i Faith, Ahmadis, and Mormons whose founders each make controversial claims based on the concept of Prophethood.

So I thought on a religious forum it would be useful to consider what various religious scriptures have to say about the concept of what a Prophet is and what it isn’t. The discussion need not be limited to the scriptures of the three main Abrahamic Faiths. I know there are other faiths with sacred writings or scriptures outside these religions that allude in part to the concept of the Prophet. So do feel free to make references to any recognised scriptures.

Will we agree on what constitutes a Prophet based on scriptures? Probably not, but for me it will be a much more interesting discussion than some of the other topics on offer.

I’ll kick off with a couple of Biblical quotes:

1/ When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Deuteronomy 18:22

2/ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:15-20

Hey Adrian, I was thinking about all the problems with taking things that Moses and Jesus did literally, and how the Baha'i look at a lot of the things that they did as being allegorical. I think we have the same problems with the prophets of the Bible. Elijah called down fire from heaven and was carried off into the sky on a chariot. Then Jonah being swallowed by a big fish. So how real do Baha'is really take these prophets? And even if the stories were based on real people, for Baha'is, some of the things said about them can't be literally true.

So like with Moses and Jesus, if we take away parting the seas and walking on water, just how great were these prophets? Because, if we don't see these types of people now, why should we believe that they existed back then? Could the stories about the prophets be fictional? But then, what do we do with the prophecies attributed to them? If the stories about them were embellished and/or fictional, why trust that their prophecies weren't fictional also?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So like with Moses and Jesus, if we take away parting the seas and walking on water, just how great were these prophets?

This was addressed to Adrian, but CG, is that now as evident as the noon day sun?

Name the greatest King of all time, that the world has known to date, where are they and where is their legacy?

Consider who still follow the real Kings, the Manifestations of God that come for and are given our hearts. Is that not obvious? Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha all still have millions of loyal subjects, yet they only came for the hearts of humanity, so that we would live together as one people.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Name the greatest King of all time, that the world has known to date, where are they and where is their legacy?

Consider who still follow the real Kings, the Manifestations of God that come for and are given our hearts. Is that not obvious? Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha all still have millions of loyal subjects, yet they only came for the hearts of humanity, so that we would live together as one people.

A certain quote immediately came to my mind. Here it is.

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hey Adrian, I was thinking about all the problems with taking things that Moses and Jesus did literally, and how the Baha'i look at a lot of the things that they did as being allegorical. I think we have the same problems with the prophets of the Bible. Elijah called down fire from heaven and was carried off into the sky on a chariot. Then Jonah being swallowed by a big fish. So how real do Baha'is really take these prophets? And even if the stories were based on real people, for Baha'is, some of the things said about them can't be literally true.

So like with Moses and Jesus, if we take away parting the seas and walking on water, just how great were these prophets? Because, if we don't see these types of people now, why should we believe that they existed back then? Could the stories about the prophets be fictional? But then, what do we do with the prophecies attributed to them? If the stories about them were embellished and/or fictional, why trust that their prophecies weren't fictional also?

Hey CG,

Good questions. As you appreciate the further back in history we go, the more difficult it is to know of with any certainty anything about the lives of historic characters or whether they existed at all. Take Adam for example. He was the first of the known Prophets according to Islam and the Baha'i Faith, yet what does the account in Genesis tells us that is historical? 'Abdu'l-Baha makes clear the story the Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden isn't to be taken literally. The story is allegorical with many hidden meanings. Same deal with Noah. However it is the spiritual truths that are important and eternal. If we hold fast to the Covenant of God we will find refugee and safety (the Ark) despite the severest tests and ordeals (the flood).

Its the same deal with the prophecies. They tend to reference general process with the breakdown of community, estranged relationships between peoples and the corruption of values of decency that will accompany the rise of renewed spirituality, whatever form that may take. It is best to avoid the details and look to the general principles.

 

[CG Didymus]

As you appreciate the further back in history we go, the more difficult it is to know of with any certainty anything about the lives of historic characters or whether they existed at all.

I don't look into too deep, but I remember some people thinking that there were three "Isaiah's", and that Daniel was written way later then the time period in which in was set in.

Its the same deal with the prophecies.

So to continue with Daniel, the story has him being thrown into a lions den, but the lions don't eat him. His friends are thrown into a fiery furnace, but they don't get burned to death. Then, Daniel goes into his prophecies. And those prophecies become very important to the Baha'i Faith. But that's the thing, we know the stories are being embellished and who knows who wrote them and when, but we trust the prophecies?

 

[CG Didymus]

Consider who still follow the real Kings, the Manifestations of God that come for and are given our hearts. Is that not obvious? Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha all still have millions of loyal subjects, yet they only came for the hearts of humanity, so that we would live together as one people.

If we start with two you didn't mention, Adam and Noah, what do we really know about them? Nothing. The Bible accounts of their lives are fictional. Might as well add Abraham to that list too. Then Moses and Jesus, like I said did they really do what the Bible says they did? No. Did Moses' cane turn into a snake? Did Jesus raise two people from the dead? They are made into "kings" because of the people that made those stories the literal and infallible word of God. The millions of followers of Jesus through the centuries were told he is God. Is that true? No. Except to literal believing Christians.

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets?

I'm focusing mainly on the prophets of Judaism. They usually told the people, "Thus says the Lord..." and then told them that God was sending some kind of judgement against them. Since Biblical times, how many of those kinds of prophets has there been? I know there has been people acting as if they are that kind of prophet, declaring gloom and doom and the end of the world, but do we take them serious?

So are there still Isaiah's and Jeremiah's out there? And if there's not, then I'm wondering if those Bible stories about these prophets had a lot of myth and legend going on? How easily would it be to tell a story about how in times past God sent a prophet to get the people to change their ways. But the people disobeyed and God had the country invaded or sent a plague? Your guy, Baha'u'llah did things like that, but he's a manifestation, not one of those other, lessor kinds of prophets.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't look into too deep, but I remember some people thinking that there were three "Isaiah's", and that Daniel was written way later then the time period in which in was set in.

So to continue with Daniel, the story has him being thrown into a lions den, but the lions don't eat him. His friends are thrown into a fiery furnace, but they don't get burned to death. Then, Daniel goes into his prophecies. And those prophecies become very important to the Baha'i Faith. But that's the thing, we know the stories are being embellished and who knows who wrote them and when, but we trust the prophecies?

The book of Daniel, Isaiah and Revelation have certainly been the focus of some attention from 'Abdu'l-Baha in 'Some Answered Questions'. So an argument could be made that subsequent Prophets to Christ through Islam and the Baha'i Faith have fulfilled the prophecies in these books. Some of the narrative involves quite precise information concerning the calculation of dates and the mention of specific empires and localities. Most of it is quite vague though and refers to principles and processes in regards the unfolding of Divine Civilization (God's Kingdom on Earth in Christian terms). So while prophecy has its place the practical application of sacred teachings for personal development, community building and evolving civilization is far more important. The specifics of prophecy as elaborated by 'Abdu'l-Baha is not the main concern, though clearly has its place.

 

[Trailblazer]

If we start with two you didn't mention, Adam and Noah, what do we really know about them? Nothing. The Bible accounts of their lives are fictional. Might as well add Abraham to that list too. Then Moses and Jesus, like I said did they really do what the Bible says they did? No.

I have no reason to believe that the Bible contains an accurate portrayal of these Prophets. What I know about all the Prophets you mentioned is what I learned from what Baha'u'llah wrote in The Kitab-i-Iqan and what Abdu'l-Baha wrote in Some Answered Questions.

Did Moses' cane turn into a snake? Did Jesus raise two people from the dead? They are made into "kings" because of the people that made those stories the literal and infallible word of God. The millions of followers of Jesus through the centuries were told he is God. Is that true? No. Except to literal believing Christians.

If you know it is not true, why worry about it?

I'm focusing mainly on the prophets of Judaism. They usually told the people, "Thus says the Lord..." and then told them that God was sending some kind of judgement against them. Since Biblical times, how many of those kinds of prophets has there been? I know there has been people acting as if they are that kind of prophet, declaring gloom and doom and the end of the world, but do we take them serious?

I don't think there have been any other prophets like the ones in the Old Testament because this were a special kind of Prophets, and their primary purpose was to make prophecies about the coming of the Messiah, so people would know what to be looking for when he comes in the future.

So are there still Isaiah's and Jeremiah's out there? And if there's not, then I'm wondering if those Bible stories about these prophets had a lot of myth and legend going on? How easily would it be to tell a story about how in times past God sent a prophet to get the people to change their ways. But the people disobeyed and God had the country invaded or sent a plague? Your guy, Baha'u'llah did things like that, but he's a manifestation, not one of those other, lessor kinds of prophets.

No, I don't think that there are any Isaiah's or Jeremiah's out there, as they served a particular purpose as I noted above.
The Cycle of Prophecy is now over and we are now loving in the Cycle of Fulfillment.

TABLE: BAHA'I SACRED HISTORY

I. PREVIOUS UNIVERSAL CYCLES - of which no trace remains

II. PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

· A. ADAMIC CYCLE, CYCLE OF PROPHECY - lasted approximately 6,000 year

1. Adam 1. Indian religious figures
2. Noah - Krishna
3. Abraham
4. Moses 2. Zoroaster
5. Jesus 3. Buddha
6. Muhammad
+ Other unknown or unspecified prophets

· B. BAHA'I CYCLE, CYCLE OF FULFILLMENT - to last 500,000 years

1. The Bab
2. Bahá'u'lláh - Universal Manifestation for this Universal Cycle

a. Heroic, Primitive, or Apostolic Age - 1844-1921 (or 1932 - the death of Bahiyyih Khanum)

i. Ministry of the Bab (1844-53)
ii. Ministry of Bahá'u'lláh (1853-92)
iii. Ministry of `Abdu'l-Bahá (1892-1921)

b. Formative, Transitional, or Iron Age - 1921 -

i. First Epoch (1921-44/46) - Erection of the Administrative Order
ii. Second Epoch (1946-63) - spread of the Faith beyond the confines of the Western Hemisphere
iii. Third Epoch (1963-86) - emergence of the Faith from obscurity and initiation of social and economic development plans
iv. Fourth Epoch (1986- ) - national communities taking on the responsibility for their own development
v. Successive further Epochs

c. Golden Age
Successive Epochs leading to the Most Great Peace

3. Further Manifestations - under the shadow of Bahá'u'lláh

· END OF PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

III. FURTHER UNIVERSAL CYCLES

Ages and Cycles

 

[CG Didymus]

So like with Moses and Jesus, if we take away parting the seas and walking on water, just how great were these prophets? Because, if we don't see these types of people now, why should we believe that they existed back then? Could the stories about the prophets be fictional?

I agree with the Baha'is that the stories told about them are probably fictional. I don't know for sure. Baha'is? I guess you think you know for sure, because the Baha'i Faith says so. Then Tony says this...

Consider who still follow the real Kings, the Manifestations of God that come for and are given our hearts. Is that not obvious? Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha all still have millions of loyal subjects, yet they only came for the hearts of humanity, so that we would live together as one people.

Real Kings? If the stories are embellished fiction, then what is real about the stories?

Then Moses and Jesus, like I said did they really do what the Bible says they did? No. Did Moses' cane turn into a snake? Did Jesus raise two people from the dead? They are made into "kings" because of the people that made those stories the literal and infallible word of God. The millions of followers of Jesus through the centuries were told he is God. Is that true? No. Except to literal believing Christians.

Is Jesus the King of Kings and Son of God? Yes, to his literal Bible believing followers, but why to anyone else? Especially to a Baha'i whose religion has made most of the things that made Jesus great... allegorical. The "King Jesus", that literal believing Christians follow, rose from the dead, and when he returns, will conquer Satan and will establish his Kingdom. For Baha'is, that is not a real Jesus.

If you know it is not true, why worry about it?

Even if you and I don't believe the Bible stories literally, doesn't make them untrue. And it takes some amount of research and investigation to come to the conclusion that it probably isn't literally true. Baha'is have added lots of reasons to doubt it is literally true. But then, is everything about the Baha'i Faith true? I still have my doubts. I don't know for sure and am not going to stop asking questions. For me, the attitude of "Why worry about it", goes against a person doing an independent investigation of truth. But I do believe Baha'is and other religious people "don't worry" about too many things. They become satisfied that their religion is right and, in some religions, are discouraged from doubting and questioning it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Even if you and I don't believe the Bible stories literally, doesn't make them untrue. And it takes some amount of research and investigation to come to the conclusion that it probably isn't literally true.

I do not know how we could ever determine that and I don't know what it would matter of the Bible stories are literally true, unless you think that maybe Jesus rose from the dead and everything Christians believe could be true, that Jesus ascended and will return on the clouds.

Baha'is have added lots of reasons to doubt it is literally true. But then, is everything about the Baha'i Faith true?

At least we can know the history of the Baha'i Faith because it is contemporary history, not so with the Bible.
the only thing that really matters is whether Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God who got communication from God, the rest is not that important. Baha'u'llah did His best to set up a Covenant whereby those who took over after he died would carry on as He wanted them to, but humans are fallible so I am not about to believe everything went as Baha'u'llah intended. If I see things I do not agree with, things that are in-congruent with what Baha'u'llah wrote I am not going to accept them.

I still have my doubts. I don't know for sure and am not going to stop asking questions. For me, the attitude of "Why worry about it", goes against a person doing an independent investigation of truth. But I do believe Baha'is and other religious people "don't worry" about too many things. They become satisfied that their religion is right and, in some religions, are discouraged from doubting and questioning it.

You should not stop asking questions until you are sure, but I recommend asking the important questions rather than ones that are inconsequential. Moreover, if you want to know of the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God, you should ask questions about the Bahai' Faith, not questions about the Bible. I already know that the Baha'i Faith is the truth because it is obvious to me that what Baha'u'llah wrote came from God, but also for logical reasons, since it would make no sense for only one of the great religions to be true. They all have to be true and that is why I could never be a Christian as it is an untenable position to say that Jesus is the Only Way. Jesus was the Only Way during His Dispensation, but time marches on and so does God!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Even if you and I don't believe the Bible stories literally, doesn't make them untrue. And it takes some amount of research and investigation to come to the conclusion that it probably isn't literally true. Baha'is have added lots of reasons to doubt it is literally true. But then, is everything about the Baha'i Faith true? I still have my doubts. I don't know for sure and am not going to stop asking questions. For me, the attitude of "Why worry about it", goes against a person doing an independent investigation of truth. But I do believe Baha'is and other religious people "don't worry" about too many things. They become satisfied that their religion is right and, in some religions, are discouraged from doubting and questioning it.

Keep searching until you are satisfied C G. When I became a Baha’i over thirty years ago I wasn’t certain about joining any religion let alone one outside Christianity with a strange sounding name. The Baha’i Faith made sense and appeared to be the best religion going. I still feel the same way. Am I one hundred percent certain? Not really but I believe Bahá’u’lláh is a Prophet of the God of Abraham and the Baha’i Faith has a lot of positives.

 

[Trailblazer]

Am I one hundred percent certain? Not really but I believe Bahá’u’lláh is a Prophet of the God of Abraham and the Baha’i Faith has a lot of positives.

I am 100% certain that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age, as revealed by Baha'u'llah, even though I have some issues with those who came after Him and added to or interpreted what He wrote. Imo, it is unavoidable that fallible humans will make some mistakes.

I am also 100% certain that the Bible and the Qur'an were divinely inspired.
I cannot give an opinion about other scriptures because I do not know enough about them.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am 100% certain that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age, as revealed by Baha'u'llah, even though I have some issues with those who came after Him and added to or interpreted what He wrote. Imo, it is unavoidable that fallible humans will make some mistakes.

I am also 100% certain that the Bible and the Qur'an were divinely inspired.
I cannot give an opinion about other scriptures because I do not know enough about them.

I'm good with who came after Baha'u'llah including 'Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice. I like the Baha'i community and how the administration has unfolded. I have no issue with the Quran and the Christian Bible either. I'm sure if I learnt some more about Buddhism and Hinduism I could made some better connections and its very much a work in progress.

The issue I struggle with most is the slow growth of the Faith in the West and the perilous state of humanity. I believe Baha'u'llah is the Divine physician for this day, but humanity appears unwilling or unable to accept the medicine that God has prescribed. So I'm frustrated with humanity and even more frustrated with myself.

 

[Trailblazer]

The issue I struggle with most is the slow growth of the Faith in the West and the perilous state of humanity. I believe Baha'u'llah is the Divine physician for this day, but humanity appears unwilling or unable to accept the medicine that God has prescribed. So I'm frustrated with humanity and even more frustrated with myself.

I don't know why you are frustrated with yourself, you make a great effort at teaching, and you are also involved in your Baha'i community and with others in your community, and you also have a family and a very demanding job. I could never do all that you do.

I also struggle with the slow growth of the Faith in the West but who is really to blame for it when the UHJ considers community building more important than teaching the Faith? Most Baha'is just follow along and do what they are told to do, and that can even be used as an excuse not to teach. We cannot blame people for not being receptive when they never even heard of the Faith. What are the Baha'is doing? Look at the date on this letter and weep.

"There is so much suffering, such a great and desperate need for a true remedy and the Bahá’ís should realize their sacred obligation is to deliver the Message to their fellowmen at once, and on as large a scale as possible. If they fail to do so, they are really partly responsible for prolonging the agony of humanity."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 18, 1943)

What I am frustrated with is Christians who keep waiting for Jesus to return, and this is the primary reason that the Faith has not grown in the West. Below is a list I made of the reasons I think the Baha'i Faith is still relatively small.

1. Many people have never heard of the Baha’i Faith, so they do not know there is something to look for. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is to get the message out, so if that is not happening, the Baha’is are to blame. However, there are so few Baha’is and they are busy building the New World Order, and there is only so much time, so they can only do so much.

2. But even after people know about the Baha’i Faith, most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.

3. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.

4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”

5. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.

6. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion either do not believe that God communicates via Messengers or they find fault with the Messenger, Baha’u’llah.

7. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws because some laws require them to give things up that they like doing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't know why you are frustrated with yourself, you make a great effort at teaching, and you are also involved in your Baha'i community and with others in your community, and you also have a family and a very demanding job. I could never do all that you do.

I also struggle with the slow growth of the Faith in the West but who is really to blame for it when the UHJ considers community building more important than teaching the Faith? Most Baha'is just follow along and do what they are told to do, and that can even be used as an excuse not to teach. We cannot blame people for not being receptive when they never even heard of the Faith. What are the Baha'is doing? Look at the date on this letter and weep.

"There is so much suffering, such a great and desperate need for a true remedy and the Bahá’ís should realize their sacred obligation is to deliver the Message to their fellowmen at once, and on as large a scale as possible. If they fail to do so, they are really partly responsible for prolonging the agony of humanity."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 18, 1943)

What I am frustrated with is Christians who keep waiting for Jesus to return, and this is the primary reason that the Faith has not grown in the West. Below is a list I made of the reasons I think the Baha'i Faith is still relatively small.

1. Many people have never heard of the Baha’i Faith, so they do not know there is something to look for. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is to get the message out, so if that is not happening, the Baha’is are to blame. However, there are so few Baha’is and they are busy building the New World Order, and there is only so much time, so they can only do so much.

2. But even after people know about the Baha’i Faith, most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.

3. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.

4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”

5. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.

6. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion either do not believe that God communicates via Messengers or they find fault with the Messenger, Baha’u’llah.

7. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws because some laws require them to give things up that they like doing.

Well you have given this a great deal of thought.

I think the major problem for me is that I'm near burn out if not already there. It happens to many GPs my age. Truth been known its been going on for a few years and I really hit the wall about 1 1/2 years ago. I was doing quite a lot of voluntary work too. I haven't been sleeping so well and been feeling more tired. December 2019 I ended up doing some locum cover in a rural practice about 90 minutes south of my hometown. They asked me if I'd stay because its hard to get decent GPs. I said I'd try it out. It was only two days a week with two other doctors covering the practice. Unfortunately the other two doctors have just resigned and I'm the last man standing. Rightly or wrongly I feel obligated to help out until we can get more doctors. Unfortunately, we have a nation wide shortage of GPs, especially in the rural regions. Last week I spent the whole week covering the practice. This week we have a locum so I'm working full time at my other job to catch up.

All the dramas, changes and challenges have taken centre stage and the Baha'i Faith has taken somewhat of a back seat. That being said, I'm on our local assembly, I'm the treasurer and also an assistant for protection so its kinda hard to disappear into the background. I'm quietly hoping my community will have recognised I'm not at my best and have the good sense to elect someone younger with energy and enthusiasm. Another assistant for protection has recently been appointed who is really dynamic so it would be good to be relieved of that responsibility.

That aside, the current plan initiated by the Universal House of Justice in their Ridvan message 1996 is coming to a close this Ridvan, we'll have a one year plan and then a nine year plan. I've gone through many of the Ruhi books and my wife (who isn't a Baha'i) is currently joining my study group with our weekly zoom meetings. I managed to host a devotional meeting for the first time since the bicentenary celebration of the Birth of the Bab. My two teenage sons come along to occasional activities but religion is not an important part of their lives currently.

What I like about the plan is the potential for being able manage growth in a locality if it were to happen. The Pacific Islander members of our community are spearheading the plan with community building activities with quite a few friends of the faith involved with core activities.

There's no doubt that community building and teaching the faith are closely inter linked. I'm lacking the time and energy for both. I can't see a community activity starting in my neighbourhood anytime soon. I had though about the rural community I am the GP for. However the community want me to be their GP. I don't think they'll be too interested in the community building activities of the Baha'is or the Baha'i Faith for that matter.

I think your assessment of why so few people are interested in becoming Baha'is is accurate. The quote from Shoghi Effendi was during WWII 1942, nearly 80 years ago. I do feel responsibility for connecting humanity with the message of Baha'u'llah. Being a burnt out GP creates some cognitive dissonance if you know what I mean. Anyway, I have good days and not so good days. Today I'm struggling somewhat.

 

[Marcion]

I'm good with who came after Baha'u'llah including 'Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice. I like the Baha'i community and how the administration has unfolded. I have no issue with the Quran and the Christian Bible either. I'm sure if I learnt some more about Buddhism and Hinduism I could made some better connections and its very much a work in progress.

The issue I struggle with most is the slow growth of the Faith in the West and the perilous state of humanity. I believe Baha'u'llah is the Divine physician for this day, but humanity appears unwilling or unable to accept the medicine that God has prescribed. So I'm frustrated with humanity and even more frustrated with myself.

I can feel for your frustration, I recognize it to some extent.

When Ba'ba' predicted during the 1970's and 1980's that there would be an Islamic revolution in Iran, that Islam would cause a big world wide shake up in the capitalist world, that communism and the separation of Germany would soon end without bloodshed, that Prakrti would start taking revenge for the abuse of the earth through increased floods, storm surges, droughts and other large calamities, when he urged us to help change to organic agriculture, preserve animals and plants and water and go for solar panels and wind turbines instead of fossil fuels during the 1980's I kind of only half believed all those predictions would come true, but they did. He also predicted the demise of capitalism after increasing greed of capitalists.

His socio-economic theory (somewhat similar to Kate Raworth's doughnut economy system) however only drew some minor world wide attention in the 1990's and hardly anyone has heard of Ba'ba' outside my own tantra-yoga group, so that is quite equivalent to the very limited knowledge people have of Bahalullah and his ideas.

Both Krishna and earlier Shiva took birth at times when the human society was in a great crisis. Ba'ba' took birth when communism and capitalism started to do maximum damage to the earth and the human spirit. All three came to help restore human dharma on earth.

So I understand to some extent the way of thinking of Bahai people eventhough they look at the world through their Abrahamic succession lense.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I can feel for your frustration, I recognize it to some extent.

When Ba'ba' predicted during the 1970's and 1980's that there would be an Islamic revolution in Iran, that Islam would cause a big world wide shake up in the capitalist world, that communism and the separation of Germany would soon end without bloodshed, that Prakrti would start taking revenge for the abuse of the earth through increased floods, storm surges, droughts and other large calamities, when he urged us to help change to organic agriculture, preserve animals and plants and water and go for solar panels and wind turbines instead of fossil fuels during the 1980's I kind of only half believed all those predictions would come true, but they did. He also predicted the demise of capitalism after increasing greed of capitalists.

His socio-economic theory (somewhat similar to Kate Raworth's doughnut economy system) however only drew some minor world wide attention in the 1990's and hardly anyone has heard of Ba'ba' outside my own tantra-yoga group, so that is quite equivalent to the very limited knowledge people have of Bahalullah and his ideas.

Both Krishna and earlier Shiva took birth at times when the human society was in a great crisis. Ba'ba' took birth when communism and capitalism started to do maximum damage to the earth and the human spirit. All three came to help restore human dharma on earth.

So I understand to some extent the way of thinking of Bahai people eventhough they look at the world through their Abrahamic succession lense.

I can see parallels with both our beliefs. The Baha’i Faith is less obscure and more well known but its not a significant part of people’s consciousness. However the actual teachings are centre stage in world events as are the processes you allude too. In some ways it doesn’t really matter too much. I’m sure the world is evolving as it should with some enormous challenges for humanity ahead. All the best with your tantric practices.