The Apostle Paul said if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is useless and you are still guilty of your sins.
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Christianity vs Baha'i
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
The Apostle Paul said if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is useless and you are still guilty of your sins.
That's why I dont agree with the Jewish belief that Jesus isn't the Messiah because of certain prophecies not being fulfilled when Christ was on the earth. Those prophecies were meant to be fulfilled when Jesus returns.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, the whole of the Gospel is not based upon the resurrection, and a belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus is not necessary to be a Christian.
What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death
Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1
They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.
Later, perhaps after Paul's death, there was great disappointment within the Christian communities because Jesus had not returned as expected. They diverted their focus of attention away from Jesus' second coming. They studied his life and death more intensely. Legends without a historical basis were created by the early church; these included the empty tomb and described Jesus returning in his original body to eat and talk with his followers.
In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events. Retired bishop John Shelby Spong commented:
"I do admit that for Christians to enter this subject honestly is to invite great anxiety. It is to walk the razor's edge, to run the risk of cutting the final cord still binding many to the faith of their mothers and fathers. But the price for refusing to enter this consideration is for me even higher. The inability to question reveals that one has no confidence that one's belief system will survive such an inquiry. That is a tacit recognition that on unconscious levels, one's faith has already died. If one seeks to protect God from truth or new insights, then God has surely already died." 3
http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm
Do you agree that the two advents of the Messiah are mentioned in the Bible? Baha'u'llah fulfilling Old Testament prophecies isnt mentioned in the Bible.
History and geography have nothing to do with the second coming of Jesus.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You might want to ask yourself what Paul meant by "raised." Christianity has convinced you it refers to the physical body of Jesus but I have my own interpretation of those verses.
The following is what I believe. In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection. That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected; brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies. That does not mean Jesus’ soul (spirit) was brought back to life (because the soul cannot die, so it does not need to be brought back to life); it means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days... Had it NOT been brought back to life you would still be in your sins because it was the Cause of Christ that needed to be brought back to life in order to save people from their sins. People needed to get the Gospel message that Jesus taught and the disciples needed to carry that far and wide. Their faith in Jesus needed to be renewed (resurrected) after Jesus had died and the disciples lost all hope.
I do not believe that a physical body can come back to life after three days; that goes against all that is known by science. Moreover, even if such a miracle happened to Jesus, I do not believe that means that the physical bodies of all the believers that ever lived are going to come up out of their graves when Jesus returns. 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: refers to rising from spiritual death, rising from the graves of ignorance of Christ, not to anyone rising from physical graves. Had the Cause of Christ not been brought back to life after three days, everyone would have remained in their sins and in spiritual death.
I believe that 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death refers to spiritual death. The physical body was never designed to live forever, but the soul is immortal so it can never die. Those souls who believe in Jesus have eternal life (everlasting life) because they are near to God; other souls who are veiled from God continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies, but, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, they are nonexistent because they are separated from God.
Jesus was the resurrection and the life because He conferred eternal life by giving us access to God. I believe that eternal life refers to a quality of life, gaining the rewards of the heaven, which are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God. Eternal life does not refer to continuance or duration of life. All souls live forever in the spiritual world but only souls who are close to God have eternal life.
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
1 Corinthians 15:12-14
The Passion Translation
The Importance of the Resurrection
12 The message we preach is Christ, who has been raised from the dead. So how could any of you possibly say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 For if there is no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, all of our preaching has been for nothing and your faith is useless 15 Moreover, if the dead are not raised, that would mean that we are false witnesses who are misrepresenting God. And that would mean that we have preached a lie, stating that God raised him from the dead, if in reality he didn’t.16 If the dead aren’t raised up, that would mean that Christ has not been raised up either. 17 And if Christ is not alive, you are still lost in your sins and your faith is a fantasy. 18 It would also mean that those believers in Christ who have passed away have simply perished. 19 If the only benefit of our hope in Christ is limited to this life on earth, we deserve to be pitied more than all others! 20 But the truth is, Christ is risen from the dead, as the firstfruit of a great resurrection harvest of those who have died.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I don't agree with the Jews either, and I disagree for the same reason you disagree.
Those prophecies were meant to be fulfilled at the second coming, but not by the same man Jesus, since Jesus never promised or planned to return to earth.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus fulfilling Old Testament prophecies isn't mentioned in the Bible. It was simply assumed by Christians that Jesus would return and fulfill them. But where is Jesus? The prophecies have all been fulfilled, and not by Jesus.
Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies because He did what those prophecies say the Messiah would do; He came and went where they say the Messiah would come and go, and He fits the description of the Messiah. Everything Jesus prophesied would happen when Christ returned also happened, before and after Baha'u'llah appeared.
They do in the sense that the history of the coming of Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies and the geography of those lands were transformed and thereby fulfilled verses in Isaiah 35 (and other chapters).
Isaiah 35 King James Version (KJV)
35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.
Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel, proclaiming the Glory of the Lord has come.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Thanks for your clear response.
I have a question. If third party address means someone else, and it means Bahaullah, how about third party present tense sentences? Do they mean Bahaullah too?
In Matthew 9 it says "Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins". Its in present tense so is happening at the time of quotation. So in this Jesus is saying whats going on at present times.
Also if you mean that the predicted Son of Man is Bahaullah he was supposed to have come back "before you finish the towns of Israel" in Matthew 10. So it should have been in a few years maximum.
In Matthew 11 Son of Man is referred in the third person again as eating and drinking with tax collectors etc. So does this third party reference refer to Bahaullah?
New Testament says "Son of man IS the lord of the Sabbath", not will be. And said in the third party.
Even when Jesus speaks about the Sign of Jonah, and the three days and three nights episode, Son of Man is spoken of in the "THIRD PARTY". In fact, it is eternally referred to in the third party.
If third party references mean its someone else like you explained, and is Bahaullah, then all of these are referring to Bahaullah, but was in the present tense so already happened 2000 years ago.
Peace.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I just posted to Skywalker what I believe to be the meaning of the verses on 1 Cor 15.
#165 Trailblazer, 20 minutes ago
“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.
Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222
firedragon
Veteran Member
By word of God do you mean the Gospel of John word of God referred to in John 1:1, or Philo's "word of God" that preceded John? Or do you mean the Quranic reference which is bi kalimathin minha or a word coming from God, or is it the Christian idea of word of God which is part of the Trinity where they were three of the same usios but three distinct persons, everliving, ever equal?
There are verses in the New Testament that talk about Jesus returning. Its not just referenced in Old Testament prophecies or in Revelation. Jesus talking about returning to earth.
Christ was raised, Christ is Spirit.
Christ means 'Anointed One' Jesus was Annointed with the Holy Spirit. Jesus was Christ before flesh and after flesh. Christ is the first Messenger and the Last Messenger.
Plain and simple, the Jews still await a Messiah, but 4 have walked this earth and they still wait.
The Christains also wait and 3 more have walked the earth.
The Muslims wait and 2 walked the earth.
Seems the pattern continues.
That how I see it at least.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am not saying that third party address always means someone else, or that it always means Baha'u'llah. I was referring specifically of the verses which refer to the return of Christ. What verses mean depends upon the context.
Yes, I agree, Jesus was referring to the present time. Baha'u'llah even wrote the Jesus had the power to forgive sins. It is obvious by the context that Jesus is referring to the present time and referring to Himself as the Son of Man who can forgive sins since Jesus had the power to forgive sins.
“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.” 7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134
Sorry, I do not see anything about the return of the Son of Man in Matthew 10.
No, of course they do not refer to Baha'u'llah. They are referring to what the Son of man was doing at that time, not what He would do in the future.
These verses are someone else referring to Jesus as the Son of man, not Jesus referring to Himself as the Son of Man:
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
That refers to Jesus as the Son of Man, what He was in the present time, the lord of the Sabbath.
No, not all third party references refer to Baha'u'llah, only the verses that are prophecies, ones that refer to what we will SEE in the future. If you look at these verses in context you can see that they cannot be Jesus referring to Himself coming in the glory of His Father.
Look carefully at Mark 8:38. Look at how the verse is separated by a semicolon and then Jesus says “of him also” indicating that the Son of man is someone other than Himself who would come in the glory of his Father.
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Look carefully at Luke 9:26. Look at how Jesus separated Himself from the Son of man (ashamed of me, of him shall), and then Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in his own glory and in His Father’s glory. Jesus did not say that the Son of man will come in my glory.
Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Where are the verses that say that Jesus is returning to earth in the Old Testament or in the New Testament?
You believe these verses are referring to Jesus, that is all you can say.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Okay. I do understand your point.
I did not know that the Baha’i theology speaks of it not being Jesus. I thought that it is indeed about Jesus and his second coming and that is Bahaullah. Thanks.
The book of Daniel mentions the Millenium Kingdom.
I believe in a new heaven and a new earth, and I believe in a physical ressurection. That is because God designs everything with an order and a purpose. Heaven is an intermediate stage. Humans were created to live on the earth. Jesus said that the meek shall inherit the earth.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
But it does not say that Jesus will usher it in.