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Christianity vs Baha'i

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The New Testament story is not a made up story to make Jesus greater than any other savior. The mathematical probabiltiy that Jesus fulfilled all of the messianic prophecies is one in ten trillion to the thirteenth power. Y-Jesus.com -
I'm just reading from this post on, so I don't know what has been answered yet, but they also has their "mathematical" probabilities of their prophet fulfilling all the Bible prophecies. You both might be right, both wrong or just of you right. But for me, both have some very vague prophecies that they try to defend. Christians... the one verse in Isaiah about a virgin? What about all the rest of the verses in Isaiah 7? How do they fit? I don't think they do, and Christians never try to make them fit. They ignore them. Then most all other prophecies in Matthew. Like "out of Egypt" and the one about Rahab. And the one about he will be called a nazrite or a nazarene or something. Christians believe them. I find them questionable.

But it's the same with Baha'i claims of fulfilled prophecies. Things are taken out of context and made into prophecies. The "Two Witnesses" they say are Muhammad and Ali. The "Three Woes" are Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Anyway, I'll read on see what's been happening. But I'm glad a few Christians are posting and supporting their beliefs and their interpretations of the Bible.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It is very clear to me and it has been proven by Sears
So prophecies are proof?

Sears knew because he studied the Bible
And he knew better than anyone else what the Bible was saying?

He did not need to be infallible to add two and two and get four.
Or, two plus two equals Baha'u'llah? Each "two" is his opinion and interpretation, then he adds another "two" that is his interpretation and opinion and gives us his answer.... which just happens to add up to Baha'u'llah.

Those prophecies can only be about one man, Baha'u'llah, and that was proven in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears.
Yes, for Baha'is. For others? Maybe it's not what they would consider proof.

Even if there was no other proof of Baha'u'llah's claims, that would be adequate for me.
How could it be proof even for you. You say you haven't studied the Bible. You are taking Bill Sears word for it.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yet the greatest proof was His life and people have spent so much time on the claim, that they forget to look at the. Life.

The Messenger lives the Message before they give it.

Thus if they ask you to sacrafice certain things, or to be charitable, kind to all etc, they already have, they are known by those qualities.

Regards Tony
Yes, he was a nice guy. But... was he the return of Christ? Did he really fulfill all the Bible prophecies about the Messiah?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The apostles could have recanted that they saw Jesus but they didnt. Why would they do that? Multiple people couldn't have seen a hallucination Jesus, a hallucination is seen by one person. The ressurection of Jesus has historical evidence. https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/201...squo-death-and-resurrection-are-absolute-fact
If the resurrection was a hoax, how did the perpetrators pull it off? Were the gospel writers in on it? No Jew or Roman ever found out and exposed the hoax? But then, if it really happened, then what about the other related stories... people coming out of their graves? God speaking from heaven? It all sounds like religious myth.

So I can see why a new religion would want to come up with an alternative explanation... that those stories were not literal but symbolic. They want to be the "modern" religion that accepts science and does away with superstitious beliefs. And that is what many Baha'is have said... a physical body can't come back to life. A physical body can't ascend into the sky. Therefore, the story is not literally true.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Trailblazer... then there is really nothing to argue about.

We believe differently and we respect each other's differences in belief. How can we argue? The whole of the Gospel is based on a resurrection and if there is no resurrection, I have no Gospel.

But I did enjoy the exchange.

Ken
That's important. Can Christians and Baha'is respect each others beliefs and get along and work together to bring about peace and harmony in the world? 'Cause some Baha'is seem to feel that Christians are going to cause them lots of grief in the future.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Bible does not say that the same man Jesus will return to earth and fulfill any prophecies.

There are two advents of the Messiah. I believe that Jesus was the first advent and the second advent was Baha'u'llah.

Since Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the OT prophecies it would be impossible for Jesus to return and re-fulfill them.
History has already transpired and the geography has been altered.
What is the difference between "The Messiah" and a "Manifestation"? Is "The Messiah" greater than the other mere "Manifestations"? Did Jesus fulfill some of the Bible prophecies? The answer is probably "yes". Was he the "True" Messiah to the Jews? You seem to be saying "No". Baha'u'llah is the True Messiah to the Jews. Then what about Muhammad and The Bab? Were they prophesied in the Bible? Again, the answer is probably "yes". But they, and Jesus, were not "Messiah's"? And not "The Messiah"?

And still, any prophecy that says the Messiah will establish peace is yet to be fulfilled. And, of course, the prophecy that Jesus said that many will come in his name but that there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. Since we still have wars, how is that prophecy of Jesus fulfilled? And if you say you have already told me, you are probably right. But I need to hear it again, because I don't see how you can claim it has been fulfilled.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So prophecies are proof?
They are proof that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah, because Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies.
And he knew better than anyone else what the Bible was saying?
I never said that he knew better than anyone else. The Bible does not SAY anything. It requires interpretation. We interpret everything we read and attach meanings to it.
Or, two plus two equals Baha'u'llah? Each "two" is his opinion and interpretation, then he adds another "two" that is his interpretation and opinion and gives us his answer.... which just happens to add up to Baha'u'llah.
It adds up to Baha'u'llah because Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies. It is really as simple as that.
Yes, for Baha'is. For others? Maybe it's not what they would consider proof.
I don't care what others consider proof because I am not responsible for their choices, or their salvation. People can always twist verses to say it does not mean what it means because they do not want to believe Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.
How could it be proof even for you. You say you haven't studied the Bible. You are taking Bill Sears word for it.
I do not need to study the Bible in order to see that the prophecies line up with what actually happened in 19th century history.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I have no problem with you believing that Jesus rose from the dead, I just do not believe it, nor do I see what it is a necessary belief given it has nothing to do with why Jesus came into the world.
So why wouldn't you have a problem with a religion having a belief that is not true? Ultimately, each religion that thinks it has "The Truth" believe it is the only one right and all the others wrong. Are you really okay with just tolerating each other? Or, can you get to a deeper and more meaningful understanding of what and why you believe differently?

Then not a "necessary" belief? He freakin' rose from the dead. That's the kind of proof that even some atheists would be impressed by. This guy says he's from God. He walks on water. He heals the sick and give sight to the blind and he came back to life? Yes, I believe! That is... if it really happened. If it's just a BS story, then that's not impressive at all. In fact, why make Jesus into anything special if all his supposed "miracles" never really happened?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Just for information else it doesn't matter to me. Right, please?

Regards
Yeah, but you're right in the middle of two religions where one believes that they are more current and more correct than yours. And the other one doesn't believe yours is true. Like with me, it kind of doesn't matter which one is right, but it would be nice to know if one of them is right.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I do not need to study the Bible in order to see that the prophecies line up with what actually happened in 19th century history.
But the supposed prophecies come from the Bible. If I told you in the Book of Nephilim it says that the Messiah will appear in front of an army of 100,000 people that are about to attack Israel and destroy them all... wouldn't you want to read the Bible to make sure that I'm not just making it up?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I am not sure exactly what verse of the Revelations you are referring.

But, maybe this quote from Bahaullah be relevant:



"Say: The Book of God hath been sent down in the form of this Youth. Hallowed, therefore, be God, the most excellent of makers!" - Bahaullah

Here, by "Youth" is meant Bahaullah. The Book of God, which is the Word of God, is sent down as the person of Bahaullah. Meaning, God has made Bahaullah, to be His Word.

This is another example from Writings of Bahaullah, He refers to Himself as the Living Book:


"Take heed lest ye be prevented by aught that hath been recorded in the Book from hearkening unto this, the Living Book, Who proclaimeth the truth: “Verily, there is no God but Me, the Most Excellent, the All-Praised.”"
- Bahaullah



In Islam, the Quran is the Word of God.
کلام الله
" "Say: The Book of God hath been sent down in the form of this Youth. Hallowed, therefore, be God, the most excellent of makers!" - Bahaullah"
" "Take heed lest ye be prevented by aught that hath been recorded in the Book from hearkening unto this, the Living Book, Who proclaimeth the truth: “Verily, there is no God but Me, the Most Excellent, the All-Praised.”"
- Bahaullah "

Friends @arthra @danieldemol @shunyadragon

Do you hold that Bahaullah is G-d with reference to the above quotes colored in magenta. Right, please?
Please be straightforward.

Regards

 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Yeah, but you're right in the middle of two religions where one believes that they are more current and more correct than yours. And the other one doesn't believe yours is true. Like with me, it kind of doesn't matter which one is right, but it would be nice to know if one of them is right.
That could be sorted out with Religious Method, I understand. Right, please?

Regards
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
What is the difference between "The Messiah" and a "Manifestation"? Is "The Messiah" greater than the other mere "Manifestations"? Did Jesus fulfill some of the Bible prophecies? The answer is probably "yes". Was he the "True" Messiah to the Jews? You seem to be saying "No". Baha'u'llah is the True Messiah to the Jews. Then what about Muhammad and The Bab? Were they prophesied in the Bible? Again, the answer is probably "yes". But they, and Jesus, were not "Messiah's"? And not "The Messiah"?

And still, any prophecy that says the Messiah will establish peace is yet to be fulfilled. And, of course, the prophecy that Jesus said that many will come in his name but that there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. Since we still have wars, how is that prophecy of Jesus fulfilled? And if you say you have already told me, you are probably right. But I need to hear it again, because I don't see how you can claim it has been fulfilled.

Math shows that Jesus is the Messiah.
https://christiananswers.net/q-aiia/jesus-odds.html
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
1 Corinthians 15:12-14
The Passion Translation

The Importance of the Resurrection
12 The message we preach is Christ, who has been raised from the dead. So how could any of you possibly say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 For if there is no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, all of our preaching has been for nothing and your faith is useless 15 Moreover, if the dead are not raised, that would mean that we are false witnesses who are misrepresenting God. And that would mean that we have preached a lie, stating that God raised him from the dead, if in reality he didn’t.16 If the dead aren’t raised up, that would mean that Christ has not been raised up either. 17 And if Christ is not alive, you are still lost in your sins and your faith is a fantasy. 18 It would also mean that those believers in Christ who have passed away have simply perished. 19 If the only benefit of our hope in Christ is limited to this life on earth, we deserve to be pitied more than all others! 20 But the truth is, Christ is risen from the dead, as the firstfruit of a great resurrection harvest of those who have died.
That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected; brought back to life.

That does not mean Jesus’ soul (spirit) was brought back to life (because the soul cannot die, so it does not need to be brought back to life); it means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days...

I do not believe that a physical body can come back to life after three days; that goes against all that is known by science.
I agree with KenS, that the gospels and the rest of the NT teaches Jesus rose from the dead and is coming back. I think the spirit rising is a horrible interpretation/explanation. I'd much rather have Baha'is say, "Yes, the NT says that Jesus rose from the dead but that is a bunch of bull. They made it up. They embellished the story and wrote it into the story as if it all really happened." How many people back 2000 years ago would doubt it?

But today, lots of people doubt most all the Bible stories really happened. And with the resurrection, the Baha'is have a very good argument... A dead body can't come back to life. And worse yet, it can't float off into the sky. But what does that do to Christianity? I think Paul was right, if Jesus didn't really come back to life, Christians should be pitied as being gullible fools. And nothing in the NT is really worse trusting and believing in. Yet, after destroying the "literal" stories of the NT and the Bible, Baha'is believe the prophecies and say how great Jesus and the Bible are?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What is the difference between "The Messiah" and a "Manifestation"? Is "The Messiah" greater than the other mere "Manifestations"? Did Jesus fulfill some of the Bible prophecies? The answer is probably "yes". Was he the "True" Messiah to the Jews? You seem to be saying "No". Baha'u'llah is the True Messiah to the Jews. Then what about Muhammad and The Bab? Were they prophesied in the Bible? Again, the answer is probably "yes". But they, and Jesus, were not "Messiah's"? And not "The Messiah"?
Muhammad and the Bab were Manifestations of God but they were not Messiahs.

Jesus was 'a Messiah' because He fulfilled some of the Old Testament prophecies but Jesus was not 'the Messiah' that the Jews were waiting for because Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic Age prophecies.

The Messiah of the latter days who Baha'is believe was Baha'u'llah is greater than the other Manifestations in the sense that he was the Promised One of all ages and all religions and He ushered in a whole new religious cycle called the Cycle of Fulfillment, named as such because all the prophecies will be fulfilled during this religious cycle.

“The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under His shadow, that His Kingdom will be established, that He will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, the sucking child and the asp, shall all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. 4 The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ, and, God forbid! called the Messiah masíkh, 5 considered Him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded Him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the Law, and sentenced Him to death. Nevertheless, each one of these conditions had a signification that the Jews did not understand; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.

The second coming of Christ also will be in like manner: the signs and conditions which have been spoken of all have meanings, and are not to be taken literally.” Some Answered Questions, p. 111


Excerpts from: 26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT
And still, any prophecy that says the Messiah will establish peace is yet to be fulfilled. And, of course, the prophecy that Jesus said that many will come in his name but that there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. Since we still have wars, how is that prophecy of Jesus fulfilled? And if you say you have already told me, you are probably right. But I need to hear it again, because I don't see how you can claim it has been fulfilled.
All the prophecies below have been fulfilled. Jesus said the end is still to come and this is the end of the old age and the beginning of the new age. All these signs are indeed the beginning of sorrows which we will see before the new age is established, the beginning of birth pains of a new age:
(Matthew 24 NIV 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.)

Please note that the KJV says end of the world but many other translations say end of an age:
Matthew 24:3 - Bible Gateway

Matthew 24
King James Version
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.


Regarding peace being established, I have already covered this ground with Jewish posters. There are no verses that indicate that the Messiah will establish peace during His lifetime. That is just an assumption Jews have made based upon their interpretation of verses.

The verses below are from the Jewish Bible. Do you see anything that says when peace will be accomplished? It says "the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this" but it does not say HOW or WHEN.

Isaiah 9:5 For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace." 6 To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.

Baha'is believe that the prince of peace was Baha'u'llah, but Jews believe He was some other man who lived 4000 years ago. That's what I mean by different interpretations. But how can the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father who is called "the prince of peace" be some man who lived 4000 years ago? Jews believe that because they believe this man reigned on David's throne, but the verse says the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this so that is how we know it is the Messiah.

Jews believe that the Messiah is coming just for them, that He will be the redeemer of the Jewish people, just as the Christians believe that the Messiah is Jesus who will come to redeem the Christians.

The Messiah in Judaism (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ‎, romanized: māšîaḥ (Mashiach)) is a savior and liberator figure in Jewish eschatology, who is believed to be the future redeemer of the Jewish people. The concept of messianism originated in Judaism,[1][2] and in the Hebrew Bible a messiah is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.[3] However, messiahs were not exclusively Jewish, as the Hebrew Bible refers to Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, as a messiah[4] for his decree to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple.

In Jewish eschatology, the Messiah is a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who is expected to be anointed with holy anointing oil and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age and world to come.[1][2][5] The Messiah is often referred to as "King Messiah" (Hebrew: מלך משיח‎, romanized: melekh mashiach) or malka meshiḥa in Aramaic.[6]

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

The salient problem is that the scriptures of all the great religions speak of a world redeemer, a Messiah , and the beliefs of the Jews and Christians -- according to their interpretation of prophecies -- do not describe the Messiah those other religious people are waiting for according to their own prophecies.

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

Prophecies from World Religion and other sources

Of course, the difference between the Baha’is and the Jews and Christians is that we believe that the Messiah came to redeem the entire world.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Christ was raised, Christ is Spirit.

Christ means 'Anointed One' Jesus was Annointed with the Holy Spirit. Jesus was Christ before flesh and after flesh. Christ is the first Messenger and the Last Messenger.

Plain and simple, the Jews still await a Messiah, but 4 have walked this earth and they still wait.

The Christains also wait and 3 more have walked the earth.

The Muslims wait and 2 walked the earth.

Seems the pattern continues.

That how I see it at least.

Regards Tony
That's what I asked Trailblazer. So you believe all these Manifestations were "The Messiah"? So the Jewish prophecies of the Messiah speak of four Messiahs?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Muhammad and the Bab were Manifestations of God but they were not Messiahs.

Jesus was 'a Messiah' because He fulfilled some of the Old Testament prophecies but Jesus was not 'the Messiah' that the Jews were waiting for because Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic Age prophecies.

The Messiah of the latter days who Baha'is believe was Baha'u'llah is greater than the other Manifestations in the sense that he was the Promised One of all ages and all religions and He ushered in a whole new religious cycle called the Cycle of Fulfillment, named as such because all the prophecies will be fulfilled during this religious cycle.

“The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under His shadow, that His Kingdom will be established, that He will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, the sucking child and the asp, shall all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. 4 The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ, and, God forbid! called the Messiah masíkh, 5 considered Him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded Him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the Law, and sentenced Him to death. Nevertheless, each one of these conditions had a signification that the Jews did not understand; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.

The second coming of Christ also will be in like manner: the signs and conditions which have been spoken of all have meanings, and are not to be taken literally.” Some Answered Questions, p. 111


Excerpts from: 26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

All the prophecies below have been fulfilled. Jesus said the end is still to come and this is the end of the old age and the beginning of the new age. All these signs are indeed the beginning of sorrows which we will see before the new age is established, the beginning of birth pains (Matthew 24 NIV 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.)

Matthew 24
King James Version
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.


Regarding peace being established, I have already covered this ground with Jewish posters. There are no verses that indicate that the Messiah will establish peace during His lifetime. That is just an assumption Jews have made based upon their interpretation of verses.

The verses below are from the Jewish Bible. Do you see anything that says when peace will be accomplished? It says "the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this" but it does not say HOW or WHEN.

Isaiah 9:5 For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace." 6 To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.

Baha'is believe that the prince of peace was Baha'u'llah, but Jews believe He was some other man who lived 4000 years ago. That's what I mean by different interpretations. But how can the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father who is called "the prince of peace" be some man who lived 4000 years ago? Jews believe that because they believe this man reigned on David's throne, but the verse says the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this so that is how we know it is the Messiah.

Jews believe that the Messiah is coming just for them, that He will be the redeemer of the Jewish people, just as the Christians believe that the Messiah is Jesus who will come to redeem the Christians.

The Messiah in Judaism (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ‎, romanized: māšîaḥ (Mashiach)) is a savior and liberator figure in Jewish eschatology, who is believed to be the future redeemer of the Jewish people. The concept of messianism originated in Judaism,[1][2] and in the Hebrew Bible a messiah is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.[3] However, messiahs were not exclusively Jewish, as the Hebrew Bible refers to Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, as a messiah[4] for his decree to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple.

In Jewish eschatology, the Messiah is a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who is expected to be anointed with holy anointing oil and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age and world to come.[1][2][5] The Messiah is often referred to as "King Messiah" (Hebrew: מלך משיח‎, romanized: melekh mashiach) or malka meshiḥa in Aramaic.[6]

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

The salient problem is that the scriptures of all the great religions speak of a world redeemer, a Messiah , and the beliefs of the Jews and Christians -- according to their interpretation of prophecies -- do not describe the Messiah those other religious people are waiting for according to their own prophecies.

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

Prophecies from World Religion and other sources

Of course, the difference between the Baha’is and the Jews and Christians is that we believe that the Messiah came to redeem the entire world.

Jesus will fulfill the Messianic Age prophecies during His Second Coming.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes and Baha'i math shows that the "return" of Christ is not the physical person Jesus, but the person who took the title Baha'u'llah. So the second coming prophecies still get fulfilled by "The Christ". It's just that they believe their prophet is the one who does it.

What it changes, though, is all the born-again Christian beliefs about sin entering the world through Adam, and all people needing Jesus to pay the sin debt in order to get right with God. The Baha'is have none of that and believe all people, no matter how good or bad, move on to a spiritual world and keep advancing toward God. No Satan and no hell as believed by Christians.
 
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