Life Cycle of a Country

Nakosis · Dec 18, 2019

Life Cycle of a Country
About the time our original 13 states adopted their new
constitution, in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history
professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say
about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years
prior.

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply
cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A
democracy will continue to exist up until the time that
voters discover that they can vote themselves generous
gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the
majority always votes for the candidates who promise the
most benefits from the public treasury, with the result
that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose
fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from
the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During
those 200 years, these nations always progressed through
the following sequence

1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law,
St. Paul, Minnesota believes the United States is now
somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of
Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some
40 percent of the nation's population already having reached
the "governmental dependency" phase.

So do you see the US heading into a period of bondage?

Windwalker · Dec 18, 2019

This is brilliant. Yes, it does explain the cycle of systems. I agree we are at the place where we are between complacency and apathy. I think however, that slide to back into bondange might be rapid now at this point, years, not decades.

Even if we stave off a full dictatorship in the next election cycle, the stage has already been set. The rule of law is for the commoners only, according to our Republican controlled Senate. Presidents can do as they will, and that is a dictatorship. So long as they retain power, the President can do as he pleases.

sun rise · Dec 18, 2019

Even though I wonder where 200 years came from (the Roman Republic lasted ~500 years), what he outlines is a risk but there are countervailing forces.

One is external threats. The level of self-sacrifice to defeat the Axis powers in WWII was remarkable. And this coming together unselfishly lasted through the Cold War.

This illustrates that selfishness is not automatic and universal. We see many examples of selfless behavior in humans as well as in animals.

I also think that much worse than general selfishness is the behavior of politicians. We see the spinelessness and worse of the Senators who refuse to look at the evidence of Trump's behavior but rather take their orders from him as if they were mere minions.

We also see it as kowtowing to the wishes of the plutocrats and kleptocrats in giving them very large tax breaks while mostly stiffing those on the bottom and by special breaks and subsidies for the wealthy and large corporations while refusing to help those on the bottom.

So I do agree with the general thesis that we're at risk. We'll see what happens with the 2020 election.

Twilight Hue · Dec 18, 2019

Nakosis said:
Life Cycle of a Country
About the time our original 13 states adopted their new
constitution, in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history
professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say
about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years
prior.

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply
cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A
democracy will continue to exist up until the time that
voters discover that they can vote themselves generous
gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the
majority always votes for the candidates who promise the
most benefits from the public treasury, with the result
that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose
fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from
the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During
those 200 years, these nations always progressed through
the following sequence

1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law,
St. Paul, Minnesota believes the United States is now
somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of
Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some
40 percent of the nation's population already having reached
the "governmental dependency" phase.

So do you see the US heading into a period of bondage?

No but it is incrementally turning into a dystopian society.

I think the name will remain but the 'soul' will get ripped out of the great experiment.

Then another civil war will erupt.

PureX · Dec 18, 2019

Nakosis said:
Life Cycle of a Country
About the time our original 13 states adopted their new
constitution, in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history
professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say
about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years
prior.

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply
cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A
democracy will continue to exist up until the time that
voters discover that they can vote themselves generous
gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the
majority always votes for the candidates who promise the
most benefits from the public treasury, with the result
that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose
fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

And yet that's never what actually happens. What actually happens is that those who covet wealth and power above all else (always a minority in any society) eventually find a way to gain access to it, and use it to acquire more, and more, and more; at the expense of social unity, well-being, and national cohesion. Whatever form of government a society chooses, these people are always among them, and are tireless and unwavering in their desire to own and control everything and everyone. And if the society is not aware of this poison lurking within it, and ever vigilant in restraining it, sooner or later it will succeed at it's goal. And that will spell the end of that social order.

Nakosis said:

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from
the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During
those 200 years, these nations always progressed through
the following sequence

1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law,
St. Paul, Minnesota believes the United States is now
somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of
Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some
40 percent of the nation's population already having reached
the "governmental dependency" phase.

Click to expand...

Nakosis said:
So do you see the US heading into a period of bondage?

Yes. We seem to have lost the will to fight the forces within us, and the people among us, that wish to own and control everything and everyone. And so we have become more and more enslaved by them, and to them. Both within ourselves, and within our culture.

Revoltingest · Dec 18, 2019

Windwalker said:
This is brilliant. Yes, it does explain the cycle of systems. I agree we are at the place where we are between complacency and apathy. I think however, that slide to back into bondange might be rapid now at this point, years, not decades.

Even if we stave off a full dictatorship in the next election cycle, the stage has already been set. The rule of law is for the commoners only, according to our Republican controlled Senate. Presidents can do as they will, and that is a dictatorship. So long as they retain power, the President can do as he pleases.

I don't see dictatorship as the risk....unless it's a dictatorship of the majority.
There's an inherent instability in democracy...even one which people claim
isn't a democracy cuz of control by the "oligarchy"....it's that more & more
can vote themselves largess at the expense of others. Increased power by
a dependent class can lead to economic sloth & hampering regulation.
Will this make us weak relatively to other super powers?
Will it force us to curb military adventurism?
Will we better or worse off?
I make no predictions.

PureX · Dec 18, 2019

Revoltingest said:
I don't see dictatorship as the risk....unless it's a dictatorship of the majority.
There's an inherent instability in democracy...even one which people claim
isn't a democracy cuz of control by the "oligarchy"....it's that more & more
can vote themselves largess at the expense of others. Increased power by
a dependent class can lead to economic sloth & hampering regulation.
Will this make us weak relatively to other super powers?
Will it force us to curb military adventurism?
Will we better or worse off?
I make no predictions.

And yet the exact opposite is happening. A very small minority has gained so much wealth, and therefor, power, that they can now buy the votes to get virtually anything they want, at the expense of everyone else. We are not being dominated by a greedy majority voting itself perks, we are being dominated by a greedy minority who can buy off whomever we elect, to get whatever they want.

Nakosis · Dec 18, 2019

PureX said:
And yet that's never what actually happens. What actually happens is that those who covet wealth and power above all else (always a minority in any society) eventually find a way to gain access to it, and use it to acquire more, and more, and more; at the expense of social unity, well-being, and national cohesion. Whatever form of government a society chooses, these people are always among them, and are tireless and unwavering in their desire to own and control everything and everyone. And if the society is not aware of this poison lurking within it, and ever vigilant in restraining it, sooner or later it will succeed at it's goal. And that will spell the end of that social order.

Seems to me we, the voters allow it because of the "abundance" these companies provide. The politicians we vote for promise us abundance of some type. The abundance provided by the corporations, promised by the government leads to complacency. As long as a majority of folks are doing good they remain complacent. Now we are seeing apathy towards our government. Enough of a majority don't give two hoots about what's going on. We can be heading for a dystopia but as long as a majority of people who vote are satisfied, we keep voting the same people in. The rich can control things as long a a majority are kept complacent. Doesn't have to be much of a majority.

Eventually by the time the "majority" have realized they have given their freedom away, it's too late.

Revoltingest · Dec 18, 2019

PureX said:
And yet the exact opposite is happening. A very small minority has gained so much wealth, and therefor, power, that they can now buy the votes to get virtually anything they want, at the expense of everyone else. We are not being dominated by a greedy majority voting itself perks, we are being dominated by a greedy minority who can buy off whomever we elect, to get whatever they want.

There is more happening than what you claim above.
Consider how the welfare state has expanded during our lifetime.
Look at proposals by leading Dem presidential contenders.

Woberts · Dec 18, 2019

The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall.

PureX · Dec 18, 2019

Nakosis said:
Seems to me we, the voters allow it because of the "abundance" these companies provide. The politicians we vote for promise us abundance of some type. The abundance provided by the corporations, promised by the government leads to complacency. As long as a majority of folks are doing good they remain complacent. Now we are seeing apathy towards our government. Enough of a majority don't give two hoots about what's going on. We can be heading for a dystopia but as long as a majority of people who vote are satisfied, we keep voting the same people in. The rich can control things as long a a majority are kept complacent. Doesn't have to be much of a majority.

Eventually by the time the "majority" have realized they have given their freedom away, it's too late.

I don't believe the majority of us are "satisfied", or see themselves as "doing good". At all! I think the majority of us are frightened, because we are seeing ourselves sinking into wage slavery, and we don't know how to stop it, or even who to blame it on. So we have begun blaming each other, and scratching and clawing at each other like drowning men do when they panic in the water, feeling themselves going under. We are pushing each other down, and throwing each other under the bus, trying and gain some sense of dignity and hope for ourselves in a world where these are disappearing at an alarming rate.

We know this is the end of America. We have all seen and been participating in the downfall since greed became a virtue back in the 1980's, under the Reagan administration. When everything became reasonable in the name of personal profit. Engaging in pointless and endless warfare in which our own sons and daughters are killed and maimed along with thousand of other humans around the world has became reasonable to us in the name of personal profit. Even a president Trump has became reasonable to many of us in the name of personal profit. Whatever is good for Wall Street, and for our personal investment portfolio, is good and reasonable to us, now. Personal profit is the real reason why most of the people on this thread that voted for Trump, did so. And it's why in spite of all the horrible crap he's done, and will continue to do, they will vote for him again. It's why they will vote for any republican, in any election, regardless of how absurdly unqualified or criminally inclined he/she is. They are riding the coattails of the oligarchs, rather than fighting them. They are kapos is the oligarch's giant new 'work camp', that they call the "global economy". And they are happily selling the rest of us out just to save themselves.

Nakosis · Dec 18, 2019

Revoltingest said:
There is more happening than what you claim above.
Consider how the welfare state has expanded during our lifetime.
Look at proposals by leading Dem presidential contenders.

I suspect of it has more to do with basic human nature than political ideology.
A majority of folks just need to be doing well enough to keep the status quo wrt politicians.
Abundance is not necessarily extreme wealth. Abundance is being able to go to the supermarket and choose between a large variety of foods. Abundance is access to an variety of new gadgets.

I don't think one can deny the majority of American enjoy an abundance. Even a large number of the homeless seem to have access to smartphones.

PureX · Dec 18, 2019

Revoltingest said:
There is more happening than what you claim above.
Consider how the welfare state has expanded during our lifetime.
Look at proposals by leading Dem presidential contenders.

The welfare state has expanded only a very tiny fraction in relation to the military industrial estate. Why? Because all the tax money we pour into the military goes to the wealthy political cronies that own and run the military industrial estate. Whereas all the money that goes into public welfare just goes back into the general economy. The whole "nanny state" delusion is nothing the corporate sponsored BS.

PureX · Dec 18, 2019

Nakosis said:
I suspect of it has more to do with basic human nature than political ideology.
A majority of folks just need to be doing well enough to keep the status quo wrt politicians.
Abundance is not necessarily extreme wealth. Abundance is being able to go to the supermarket and choose between a large variety of foods. Abundance is access to an variety of new gadgets.

I don't think one can deny the majority of American enjoy an abundance. Even a large number of the homeless seem to have access to smartphones.

Abundance is not measured by the amount of crap we can claim to own. It's measured by how secure we are physically and mentally, and by how free we are to pursue our own idea of happiness, and purpose. And by how much we have to share with others.

Nakosis · Dec 18, 2019

PureX said:
I don't believe the majority of us are "satisfied", or see themselves as "doing good". At all! I think the majority of us are frightened, because we are seeing ourselves sinking into wage slavery, and we don't know how to stop it, or even who to blame it on. So we have begun blaming each other, and scratching and clawing at each other like drowning men do when they panic in the water, feeling themselves going under. We are pushing each other down, and throwing each other under the bus, trying and gain some sense of dignity and hope for ourselves in a world where these are disappearing at an alarming rate.

We know this is the end of America. We have all seen and been participating in the downfall since greed became a virtue back in the 1980's, under the Reagan administration. When everything became reasonable in the name of personal profit. Engaging in pointless and endless warfare in which our own sons and daughters are killed and maimed along with thousand of other humans around the world has became reasonable to us in the name of personal profit. Even a president Trump has became reasonable to many of us in the name of personal profit. Whatever is good for Wall Street, and for our personal investment portfolio, is good and reasonable to us, now. Personal profit is the real reason why most of the people on this thread that voted for Trump, did so. And it's why in spite of all the horrible crap he's done, and will continue to do, they will vote for him again. It's why they will vote for any republican, in any election, regardless of how absurdly unqualified or criminally inclined he/she is. They are riding the coattails of the oligarchs, rather than fighting them. They are kapos is the oligarch's giant new 'work camp', that they call the "global economy". And they are happily selling the rest of us out just to save themselves.

I think there is a difference between profit and abundance. Abundance is not necessarily tied to wealth.

If a majority weren't satisfied, then we'd see change. One doesn't have to be wealthy to be satisfied. Simply provide cheap entertainment, a variety of cheap consumer goods. People sell their soul to binge watch Netflix.

Nakosis · Dec 18, 2019

Woberts said:
The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall

IMO, you need a lot of dissatisfied people to care about falling apples.

Mister Emu · Dec 18, 2019

It is simply stated:
Strong men create good times,
Good times create soft men,
Soft men create hard times,
Hard times create strong men.

Nakosis · Dec 18, 2019

PureX said:
Abundance is not measured by the amount of crap we can claim to own. It's measured by how secure we are physically and mentally, and by how free we are to pursue our own idea of happiness, and purpose. And by how much we have to share with others.

Exactly why Trump works and most politicians for that matter. They don't have to tell the truth. They only have to promise happiness and security. Secure borders, secure jobs.

Our idea of happiness, more like the happiness we've been programmed to accept. If you buy enough, you'll be happy.

PureX · Dec 18, 2019

Nakosis said:
If a majority weren't satisfied, then we'd see change.

I disagree. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction out there. But there is also a great deal of confusion as to what to do about it. Confusion that is being deliberately spread and exacerbated by the very wealthy elite that is causing the dissatisfaction.

Nakosis said:
One doesn't have to be wealthy to be satisfied. Simply provide cheap entertainment, a variety of cheap consumer goods. People sell their soul to binge watch Netflix.

When people are frightened, frustrated, and don't know what to do about, then sure, they will be susceptible to pleasant distraction. Distraction that the wealthy elite are very happy to provide them, for yet more personal profit to themselves., of course.

Nakosis · Dec 18, 2019

PureX said:
I disagree. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction out there. But there is also a great deal of confusion as to what to do about it. Confusion that is being deliberately spread and exacerbated by the very wealthy elite that is causing the dissatisfaction.
When people are frightened, frustrated, and don't know what to do about, then sure, they will be susceptible to pleasant distraction. Distraction that the wealthy elite are very happy to provide them, for yet more personal profit to themselves., of course.

I suppose we will see in 2020.

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