Is progressive revelation believable?

Kelly of the Phoenix · Dec 11, 2019

od19g6 said:
But what if I told you that divine revelation is progressive.

I tend to agree, but what fascinates me is the stopping point for each religion.

dybmh said:
Me too, but I call it syncretic. The problem with syncretism ( at least for me ) is it's sometimes confusing and makes my brain hurt. The old adage about going down the river with two feet in two different boats comes to mind. Trying to move efficiently down the river this way is a lot of work. A lot. Start adding more boats... 3 boats, 4 boats, 5 boats... It just gets harder and harder and harder to keep all those boats traveling in the same direction.

I feel that life isn't a river but a lake. All the boats are in the lake. The lake is everywhere. There's no place to go because you're already there.

sun rise said:
I agree but to me the Avatar of this age is Meher Baba.

And I think that if we're all made in God's image, we all are.

Vouthon said:
We don't need the different 'religions' to subscribe to a new revelation / prophet / holy book. In the end, that's just the same old quest for uniformity hiding under the mask of 'unity in diversity', without really making good on the 'diversity' side of the equation.

Agreed. The eye cannot say to the hand it is not needed. Uniformity or conformity is against nature, which demands diversity in order to adapt.

Terry Sampson said:
And we need the Baha'u'llah to tell us that?

Agreed, but in the same vein, we don't need Jesus to say it either.

9-10ths_Penguin said:
What you call "progressive revelation" I usually take as fan fiction, riffing on past religions.

Yeah, but there can be some really good fanfics out there.

dybmh said:
But the idea presented that I objected to is that Jesus' message was essentially the same as Muhammad's

It's also important to realize that Jesus didn't write anything that we know of, so really it's Muhammad's (maybe) versus "some guys who knew guys who said they heard about Jesus".

od19g6 said:
And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth.

See, I would argue that there are plenty of manifestations that go unsung because society ignored them. It's like when people ask me if I think Jesus is coming back and I say we most likely already executed him in some illegal immigrant concentration camp. Everything we do unto the least of these is done unto Jesus, as the saying goes. So ... Jesus is probably unfriending a LOT of people.

od19g6 said:
Even as He hath revealed: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others".

It's the big fish that get caught and eaten.

dybmh said:
The underlying message is about God, but Jesus said submit to me ( Jesus ), and I'll do the work. Basically.. apologies if this is an ignorant statement.

Muhammad said submit to no one, nothing, but Allah.

Trinitarians claim Jesus is God, though, so logically a Muslim obeying God has to be obeying Jesus 'cause they're the same thing.

CG Didymus · Dec 11, 2019

shunyadragon said:
The Baha'i Faith does not define separately whether progressive Revelation occurs 'only' between religions nor within religions. False religions fail over time, and reveal their bad fruit. Ancient scriptures are not totally Revelation from God like the Old Testament, and they obviously contain human influence, and a human view of what is God and the relationship with humanity and Creation. The human view that corrupts religion justify violence against those who believe differently.

I do believe all of the major religions are progressing, but I'd call it evolving. Their beliefs have changed over time and new versions of those religions emerge.
But, other than what Baha'is call "Manifestations", there are the lessor prophets, sages, mystics and all kinds of other names given to spiritual people. These people have brought new teachings and interpretations to the old beliefs of a religion. Or, like Martin Luther, got the religion back to what was supposedly their original teachings. So I think the evolution within a religion is very important. I could see the Baha'i Faith having an influence on the other religions, to where they don't join forces with the Baha'is, but they adopt some of the principles of the Baha'is. Like even some liberal Christians even do yoga and allow women to be pastors.

In a later post you kind of go through some things that are more of what I was looking for, and is specific social laws from one religions that were needed at that time, but were later changed in the next religion, and was actually an upgrade from what the previous religion taught. But, I think it is important for Baha'is to be able to show that it continued from the first of the major religions to the last. Then, of course, the eternal spiritual laws should be consistently taught in all of the religions from first to last. And I already expect Baha'is to say some false, man made beliefs got mixed in. But, for now, don't worry about the contradictory beliefs. And please go beyond the "Golden Rule". Yes, every religions has a form of that.

CG Didymus · Dec 11, 2019

Vinayaka said:
As I had mentioned in earlier discussions, much, if not all of the ideas that Baha'u'llah re-introduced were also in ancient Hindu scriptures, the Vedas (Upanishads in particular) , the Bhagavad Gita, the Tirukkural, and others. There may well have been a couple of 'new ' ideas but the extent that he is credited with being the origin of them is vastly overblown.

Outside of India, and Tamil Nadu in particular, the Tirukural is practically unheard of, yet it is the ethical book used in courts of law to 'swear' on.

The Impact of Thirukkural on Humanity - Le Mauricien

Yes, but did a manifestation of God reveal them? If not, they are just the mere thoughts and wisdom of a fallible human that can in no way know or understand the unknowable God. Or, there were very wise, spiritual people that are somehow in tune with a higher spiritual reality. That reality, some people call God. They told of these things and maybe even wrote them down. Maybe others wrote them down way later. Some of these stories maybe got mixed in with some mythical Gods and even incarnations of Gods. Later, other saints and seers meditated on those spiritual ideas and stories and got a new vision, a new better way of looking at the spiritual truth and how to adapt it to the world. Maybe people made that seer into one of those incarnations of a God.

Anyway, I don't know what happened. But it is obvious Hinduism progresses and evolves all by itself. It has its own spiritual people that get new ideas, or what some call revelations. And brings changes to the religion. The new teachings and ideas fit in and become a new part of Hindu thinking. Hinduism doesn't have to become another religion. Especially a religion with totally different kinds of beliefs. But, I think all religions are ever growing and changing and incorporating new and better ways of believing. And, yes religious social rules do change. And yes, some spiritual concepts remain the same. But I doubt all of them do. I would imagine even those can change.

So I do believe in progression within a religion. But, since this thread is about the Baha'is concept of progressive revelation... do you see any reason to believe there is a progression from Hinduism to Judaism then to Buddhism, then I guess Zoroastrianism to Christianity to Islam then to the Baha'i Faith? The big change is going from a progression from Hinduism to Judaism. And since the next manifestation sent to update the truth from God I think would be the Buddha, then God's truth has to go from Judaism to Buddhism then to Zoroastrianism then Christianity? That would be some jumping around. Actually, I'd like to ask the Baha'is these questions, but I'm reluctant to ask them, because they might give me some long quote I don't understand. Or worse, tell me how biased I am. So sorry, but who else can I turn too?

TransmutingSoul · Dec 12, 2019

CG Didymus said:
So sorry, but who else can I turn too?

Your own self, your own choices.

Regards Tony

Dawnofhope · Dec 12, 2019

CG Didymus said:
But it is Baha'is that are saying the truth of all the major religions is that they are a progression from the one true God. There should be eternal spiritual truths that all those religions agree on, especially who is God and what happen to people after they die. Then, from the oldest to the newest, there should be a progression of "social" laws given by God to advance civilization to the next level. So can Baha'is do that and include all the major religions?

Yes, a Baha’i worldview encompasses all the major religions, including the ones we don’t have an identifiable Manifestation of God for.

I’d be circumspect about distinguishing social vs spiritual laws. A better distinction is transient vs eternal. Marriage law for example is part of all major world religions. It has spiritual blessings for those who pursue it so its not just social. There are transient aspects such as provision for how many spouses we can have, for example in Islam.

The Baha’i Writings don’t support a linear progressive Revelation. Its more complex than that. Consider the words of Abdul-Baha and Bahá’u’lláh.

Among the bounties of God is revelation. Hence revelation is progressive and continuous. It never ceases. It is necessary that the reality of Divinity with all its perfections and attributes should become resplendent in the human world. The reality of Divinity is like an endless ocean. Revelation may be likened to the rain. Can you imagine the cessation of rain? Ever on the face of the earth somewhere rain is pouring down. – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 378.

Their revelation may be likened unto the light of the moon that sheddeth its radiance upon the earth. Though every time it appeareth, it revealeth a fresh measure of its brightness, yet its inherent splendour can never diminish, nor can its light suffer extinction.

It is clear and evident, therefore, that any apparent variation in the intensity of their light is not inherent in the light itself, but should rather be attributed to the varying receptivity of an ever-changing world. Every Prophet Whom the Almighty and Peerless Creator hath purposed to send to the peoples of the earth hath been entrusted with a Message, and charged to act in a manner that would best meet the requirements of the age in which He appeared. – Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 79.

oldbadger · Dec 12, 2019

Vinayaka said:
I'm waiting eagerly for the scold now.

I get scolded more 'n you do!
You ain't ever been called devilish, or like a Pharisee! I get ten points for each.

oldbadger · Dec 12, 2019

dybmh said:
Everyone becomes a hypocrite sooner or later.

The only difference being: to what extent and whether or not the condition is temporary.

You don't have much faith in humans, I see.
Fair enough.

Do you think that animals can be hypocrites? I ask because I have this idea that the only creature on Earth capable of wickedness is the human. We call bacteria, viruses, plagues etc evil, but they just do what the do.

Terry Sampson · Dec 12, 2019

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
Agreed, but in the same vein, we don't need Jesus to say it either.

The nine most important people in my life, eight are dead; my wife remains with me. Of the eight, all believed in (i.e. trusted in) Jesus' promises, and none of the nine were/are biologically related to me.
My biological parents were married, but not to each other.
From the age of 3 months until just before my 12th birthday, I was raised by my father's wife.
Because the state's social services department threatened to remove me from my step-mother's care, she went to her pastor and told him that she wanted him to take me so that she could know that I would be raised in a Christian home.
He and his wife took me in, with my consent, and I became one of their six children. I'm the only one they adopted.
All of the people important to me are important because they did things and made sacrifices for me personally that I did not ask for but which saved me from a worse fate.
My name, during my first 3 months, was John Sterling Mayfield. From 3 months of age until just before my 12th birthday, my name was Terry Lee Montgomery; From the age of 12, my name has been Terry Montgomery Sampson.
I have been the beneficiary from the age of 3 months of people who were not perfect but who did extraordinary things because they believed what they believed.
Whether you understand me or not, whether you agree with me or not, I'm not going to deny the importance and relevance of Jesus in my life. I'm sorry that he hasn't been important or relevant in yours. I have never benefited from the Baha'u'llah's or Muhammad's life or words. If anyone else has, so be it, but as for me, I will follow Jesus.

Dawnofhope · Dec 12, 2019

dybmh said:
@ any Baha'i:

Question: Do ya'll have rituals? Religious Rituals?

Ahhhhh @Tony Bristow-Stagg ,

can you help with this?

Not sure if anyone answered your question.
1/ Baha’is are required to choose from one of three obligatory prayers to say daily. We wash our face and hands and face the Qiblah before reciting the prayer.
2/ We recite the verses of God morning and evening time.
3/ We recite Allah’u’Abha 95 times per day.

Dawnofhope · Dec 12, 2019

Terry Sampson said:
The nine most important people in my life, eight are dead; my wife remains with me. Of the eight, all believed in (i.e. trusted in) Jesus' promises, and none of the nine were/are biologically related to me.

My biological parents were married, but not to each other.

From the age of 3 months until just before my 12th birthday, I was raised by my father's wife.

Because the state's social services department threatened to remove me from my step-mother's care, she went to her pastor and told him that she wanted him to take me so that she could know that I would raised in a Christian home.

He and his wife took me in, with my consent, and I became one of their six children. I'm the only one they adopted.

All of the people important to me are important because they did things and made sacrifices for me personally that I did not ask for but which saved me from a worse fate.

My name, during my first 3 months, was John Sterling Mayfield. From 3 months of age until just before my 12th birthday, my name was Terry Lee Montgomery; From the age of 12, my name has been Terry Montgomery Sampson.

I have been the beneficiary from the age of 3 months of people who were not perfect but who did extraordinary things because they believed what they believed.

Whether you understand me or not, whether you agree with me or not, I'm not going to deny the importance and relevance of Jesus in my life. I'm sorry that he hasn't been important or relevant in yours. I have never benefited from the Baha'u'llah's or Muhammad's life or words. If anyone else has, so be it, but as for me, I will follow Jesus.

So what of those who testify the most important people in their lives were Muslims, Buddhists, Baha’is or Hindus? What if those who feel profoundly moved or have had life changing experiences through Muhammad, Buddha, Bahá’u’lláh or Krishna?

dybmh · Dec 12, 2019

adrian009 said:
Not sure if anyone answered your question.

... well yeah... at this point why would they ...

adrian009 said:
1/ Baha’is are required to choose from one of three obligatory prayers to say daily. We wash our face and hands and face the Qiblah before reciting the prayer.
2/ We recite the verses of God morning and evening time.
3/ We recite Allah’u’Abha 95 times per day.

That's what i wanted to know...

thank you,

Dawnofhope · Dec 12, 2019

dybmh said:
... well yeah... at this point why would they ...

That's what i wanted to know...

thank you,

RF is an opportunity to have civil and respectful dialogue with peoples of others faiths. If that’s what you want to do then there is no problem.

dybmh · Dec 12, 2019

adrian009 said:
RF is an opportunity to have civil and respectful dialogue with peoples of others faiths. If that’s what you want to do then there is no problem.

OK.

Is that supposed to make me feel encouraged in any way?

It's a lovely statement... though.

Dawnofhope · Dec 12, 2019

dybmh said:
OK.

Is that supposed to make me feel encouraged in any way?

It's a lovely statement... though.

Having discussions with peoples from other faiths can be challenging. Some people are triggered more easily than others. I think you’re a universalist at heart.

dybmh · Dec 12, 2019

adrian009 said:
Having discussions with peoples from other faiths can be challenging. Some people are triggered more easily than others. I think you’re a universalist at heart.

OK. Is this an invitation to ask my version of a respectful question about progressive revelation?

Dawnofhope · Dec 12, 2019

dybmh said:
OK. Is this an invitation to ask my version of respectful question about progressive revelation?

If that’s what you want to do, go ahead. I’m all ears.

dybmh · Dec 12, 2019

adrian009 said:
If that’s what you want to do, go ahead. I’m all ears.

OK, before I proceed I have a favor to ask.

I think it's obvious that my version of respectful is not what most people would define as respectful. I accept that about myself as a personality fault.

Because of that, I have a favor to ask.

If ask this ( so intended ) respectful question, and you feel like it is... perhaps... anything less than respectful... I just want to know that. I don't even need to know why. I can figure that out on my own.

I only ask that you be honest with me. Example: you could just reply to my question with one word: disrespectful. That would work for me.

I know that's not your style Adrian, so I'm not trying to bully you into playing the game by my rules. I'm just being honest about my own flaws, and I'm asking you this favor just so I can feel comfortable asking any questions at all.

dybmh · Dec 12, 2019

@adrian009 ,

Maybe we should tease this out a little first...

I feel like to many... respectful = complimentary and disrespectful = criticism

why? because sometimes an idea is so contradictory, hypocritical, and so obviously flawed that any criticism at all seems disrespectful especially to those who are emotionally attached to the idea itself.

Do you agree with any of this?

Further, a lot of people misinterpret passion as aggression.

Thoughts?

Dawnofhope · Dec 12, 2019

dybmh said:
OK, before I proceed I have a favor to ask.

I think it's obvious that my version of respectful is not what most people would define as respectful. I accept that about myself as a personality fault.

Because of that, I have a favor to ask.

If ask this ( so intended ) respectful question, and you feel like it is... perhaps... anything less than respectful... I just want to know that. I don't even need to know why. I can figure that out on my own.

I only ask that you be honest with me. Example: you could just reply to my question with one word: disrespectful. That would work for me.

I know that's not your style Adrian, so I'm not trying to bully you into playing the game by my rules. I'm just being honest about my own flaws, and I'm asking you this favor just so I can feel comfortable asking any questions at all.

When one of the Baha’is on RF joined the forum over two years ago, he really struggled with this environment. As you may have noticed some of the critics of the Baha’i Faith like to goad and bait the Baha’is. So my friend would get upset and post stuff when he was still upset instead of waiting till he had calmed down. It took him a while to get used to RF and he’s doing just fine now.

We all have personality faults to varying degrees. Some hide them better than others. I have my demons to conquer for sure.

My approach is to see the good in people, not their faults. I try to be patient and kind. I strive to be honest and respectful. I don’t feel comfortable telling others they are overstepping the mark and often I’m completely oblivious to it anyhow. So I may not be able to give you what you want.

On the other hand I am interested in where you’re coming from and what your take on universalism is.

dybmh · Dec 12, 2019

adrian009 said:
When one of the Baha’is on RF joined the forum over two years ago, he really struggled with this environment. As you may have noticed some of the critics of the Baha’i Faith like to goad and bait the Baha’is. So my friend would get upset and post stuff when he was still upset instead of waiting till he had calmed down. It took him a while to get used to RF and he’s doing just fine now.

We all have personality faults to varying degrees. Some hide them better than others. I have my demons to conquer for sure.

My approach is to see the good in people, not their faults. I try to be patient and kind. I strive to be honest and respectful. I don’t feel comfortable telling others they are overstepping the mark and often I’m completely oblivious to it anyhow. So I may not be able to give you what you want.

On the other hand I am interested in where you’re coming from and what your take on universalism is.

OK... so are you going to tell me if my question sounds disrespectful?

Is progressive revelation believable?

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