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Is progressive revelation believable?

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
It was unique as apart of the Revelation itself in the Baha'i writings.

The 'newness' or 'uniqueness' of an idea, in the field of intellectual history, is traced back and attributable to the earliest person(s) we can prove, through documentary evidence, to have first articulated the said idea. Its a burgeoning field of academic research and all manner of ideas have been traced back - for example, educational meritocracy first arose in sixth century BCE China through the influence of Confucianism leading to the imperial exam:


Meritocracy - Wikipedia

According to scholarly consensus, the earliest example of an administrative meritocracy, based on civil service examinations, dates back to Ancient China.[23][24][25][26][a] The concept originates, at least by the sixth century BC, when it was advocated by the Chinese philosopher Confucius, who "invented the notion that those who govern should do so because of merit, not of inherited status. This sets in motion the creation of the imperial examinations and bureaucracies open only to those who passed tests."[27]

So we can, in this way, describe 'meritocratic education' as an innovation of Confucius and the ancient Confucian religion that he founded.

Likewise international compulsory education, as a concept, is attested in 1309 (at least in Europe, I have no idea if its attested in other areas of the globe before this) as an idea circling among Catholic canon lawyers in France and again in a more developed form by the Protestant Moravian Church in the 17th century, as articulated by their Bishop Comenius.

A question was posed by @wandering peacefully as to what "laws" or ideas the Baha'i Faith had introduced "which are exclusive to their religion and are not in this day, followed by atheists, humanist, or followers of other religions?"

Universal compulsory education, which you raised as an example in response to the question, does not satisfy this criterion because I have attested (with primary evidence) to its articulation by a religious scholar in 1309 - that is, 554 years before Baha'u'llah founded the Baha'i Faith in 1863 and the idea had already spread around Europe, amongst different religious thinkers, in the intervening centuries.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
The following are Baha'i principles for the New Age

Not to labour the point but if if @wandering peacefully doesn't mind me reiterating on his / her behalf, the question posed is not which Baha'i principles were proposed for the new dispensation, but rather which of these are accounted "innovations" / "new" / "unique" to the extent that they had not been articulated before by other thinkers (whether religious or humanist)?

Consider my reference to sixth century BCE China, where Confucius is regarded by a consensus of scholars to have been the first thinker (of any philosophy / religion) to clearly articulate the idea of meritocratic education, which was subsequently implemented by the state in the imperial exam system (i.e. a bureaucracy of officeholders based on talent rather than inheritance), the first of its kind anywhere in the world.

What is being sought, specifically, is evidence for a unique innovation or innovations like this in the Writings of Baha'u'llah (or the other central figures - the Bab, Abdu'l-Baha), that if similarly enforced by a future government would likewise be the first of its kind.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member

In the West, this concept was first articulated in the pre-Christian philosophy of Stoicism, in Ancient Greece and the Roman Empire. The Stoics had stoas (schools) throughout the Empire and by the second century included the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius (121 - 180 CE) himself among their ranks, who wrote in his Meditations:


"If mind is common to us, then also the reason, whereby we are reasoning beings, is common. If this be so, then also the reason which enjoins what is to be done or left undone is common. If this be so, law also is common; if this be so, we are citizens; if this be so, we are partakers in one constitution; if this be so, the World is a kind of Commonwealth."

  • IV, 4 (as translated by ASL Farquharson)

That's why the word to describe this philosophical standpoint, cosmopolitanism, is Greek in origin - its etymology derived from kosmopolitês, formed from "κόσμος", kosmos, i.e. "world", and πολίτης, "politês", i.e. "citizen" or "[one] of a city" - literally, citizen of the world.

So when Baha'u'llah wrote in one of his tablets in the 19th century:


"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." (Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh, Lawh-i-Maqsúd)

He was giving voice to a concept that had already been widely disseminated, discussed, hypothesized and idealised by hundreds of religious thinkers for two thousand years since the days of the Stoics, who coined the idea of (spiritual / epistemic / philosophical) world citizenship in a global commonwealth of rational beings under the divine Logos.

It is also found in early Christianity, for example in the writings of St. Paul (who may have been influenced by Stoic doctrine). The Stoic concept of 'Logos' (Divine Word) is fundamental to the theology of the Gospel of John, which also adopted these Stoic concepts and melded them to Jewish ones in a new synergy:

The Literature and History Podcast


And while Paul’s knowledge of Ancient Greek philosophy, literature, and science seems to have been broad and deep, what comes across most is his widespread familiarity with stoic principles. There are so many close textual parallels between the Pauline portions of the New Testament and the work of Seneca that generations of readers have theorized about Paul borrowing from Seneca, or the other way around. As I mentioned last time, by the 200s or 300s CE a fictional correspondence between Seneca and Paul began showing up in manuscripts, and in antiquity the more bookish readers of the New Testament knew that Seneca and Paul shared a very specific connection. This connection was as follows [...[

However Paul, maybe due to the moving humbleness and even egalitarianism of Christ’s teachings as we encounter them in the Gospels, didn’t share Seneca’s particular brand of elitism. A single passage from 2 Corinthians shows Paul asserting that like stoic sages, the earliest Christians were ultimately immune to the turns of fortune’s wheel, but that this immunity came from the divine, and not their own steely-jawed asceticism.

Neither Stoics, however - nor any other ancient thinkers, such as their cousins in the Empire the Christians - had yet conceived of an actual political framework (i.e. international organisation) because their concept remained purely philosophical (rooted in the idea of divine logos) and they didn't actually believe the world should be re-ordered as a global polity. The first concrete proposals for actual world political / supranational bodies and transnational arbitration between states emerged in the medieval period, in the writings of Catholic canon lawyers such as Pierre Dubois, Emeric Cruce and others.

It would therefore not count as an innovation in religious or philosophical thought for this idea to be propounded in the 19th century.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think I missed any posts but if I did I apologize. I asked what "new spiritual laws for this day" do the Baha'I propose which are exclusive to their religion and are not in this day, followed by atheists, humanist, or followers of other religions?

I only asked for a couple. And being that the entire claim for Baha'i is that it is needed because of the new laws and practices in order to save humanity and that all other religions are outdated and should now follow Baha'i, I would think that would be a major question they would be jumping up and down to answer.

However, I have asked several times in various threads over several months and have never received an answer other than investigate it myself. It just doesn't make sense. Something just doesn't add up.

There is much that is incorrect in this statement particularly seeing other religions as obsolete.

Regardless, one approach to viewing the spiritual laws would be to consider the Kitab-i-Aqdas written by Baha'u'llah. Shoghi Effendi has provided a brief summary of this book that includes the following description:

In this Book He, moreover, prescribes the obligatory prayers; designates the time and period of fasting; prohibits congregational prayer except for the dead; fixes the Qiblih; institutes the Huqúqu’lláh (Right of God); formulates the law of inheritance; ordains the institution of the Mashriqu’l-Adhkár; establishes the Nineteen Day Feasts, the Bahá’í festivals and the Intercalary Days; abolishes the institution of priesthood; prohibits slavery, asceticism, mendicancy, monasticism, penance, the use of pulpits and the kissing of hands; prescribes monogamy; condemns cruelty to animals, idleness and sloth, backbiting and calumny; censures divorce; interdicts gambling, the use of opium, wine and other intoxicating drinks; specifies the punishments for murder, arson, adultery and theft; stresses the importance of marriage and lays down its essential conditions; imposes the obligation of engaging in some trade or profession, exalting such occupation to the rank of worship; emphasizes the necessity of providing the means for the education of children; and lays upon every person the duty of writing a testament and of strict obedience to one’s government.

Apart from these provisions Bahá’u’lláh exhorts His followers to consort, with amity and concord and without discrimination, with the adherents of all religions; warns them to guard against fanaticism, sedition, pride, dispute and contention; inculcates upon them immaculate cleanliness, strict truthfulness, spotless chastity, trustworthiness; hospitality, fidelity, courtesy, forbearance, justice and fairness; counsels them to be “even as the fingers of one hand and the limbs of one body”; calls upon them to arise and serve His Cause; and assures them of His undoubted aid. He, furthermore, dwells upon the instability of human affairs; declares that true liberty consists in man’s submission to His commandments; cautions them not to be indulgent in carrying out His statutes; prescribes the twin inseparable duties of recognizing the “Dayspring of God’s Revelation” and of observing all the ordinances revealed by Him, neither of which, He affirms, is acceptable without the other.


A description of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas by Shoghi Effendi

The Kitab-i-Aqdas was written around 1873 while a prisoner in Akka. Obviously there will be similarities and differences with other religions and views put forward by humanists and atheists. If taken in its entirety it is a unique work that differs significantly from Christianity, Islam, atheism or humanism.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
This concept was first articulated in the pre-Christian philosophy of Stoicism, in Ancient Greece and the Roman Empire. The Stoics had stoas (schools) throughout the Empire and by the second century included the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius (121 - 180 CE) himself among their ranks, who wrote in his Meditations:


"If mind is common to us, then also the reason, whereby we are reasoning beings, is common. If this be so, then also the reason which enjoins what is to be done or left undone is common. If this be so, law also is common; if this be so, we are citizens; if this be so, we are partakers in one constitution; if this be so, the World is a kind of Commonwealth."

  • IV, 4 (as translated by ASL Farquharson)

That's why the word to describe this philosophical standpoint, cosmopolitanism, is Greek in origin - its etymology derived from kosmopolitês, formed from "κόσμος", kosmos, i.e. "world", and πολίτης, "politês", i.e. "citizen" or "[one] of a city" - literally, citizen of the world.

So when Baha'u'llah wrote in one of his tablets in the 19th century:


"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." (Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh, Lawh-i-Maqsúd)

He was giving voice to a concept that had already been widely disseminated, discussed, hypothesized and idealised by hundreds of religious thinkers for two thousand years since the days of the Stoics, who coined the idea of (spiritual / epistemic / philosophical) world citizenship in a global commonwealth of rational beings under the divine Logos.

It is also found in early Christianity, for example in the writings of St. Paul (who may have been influenced by Stoic doctrine). The Stoic concept of 'Logos' (Divine Word) is fundamental to the theology of the Gospel of John, which also adopted these Stoic concepts and melded them to Jewish ones in a new synergy.

Neither Stoics, however - nor any other ancient thinkers - had yet conceived of an actual political framework (i.e. international organisation) because their concept remained purely philosophical (rooted in the idea of divine logos) and they didn't actually believe the world should be re-ordered as a global polity. The first concrete proposals for actual world political / supranational bodies and transnational arbitration between states emerged in the medieval period, in the writings of Catholic canon lawyers such as Pierre Dubois, Emeric Cruce and others.

It would therefore not count as an innovation in religious or philosophical thought for this idea to be propounded in the 19th century.

Fancy words are no help. It reflects what I describe as attempts at reform, which failed. Sorry no cigar nor brass ring. The unity of humanity and the races was never a part of the teachings of Christianity until very recently, and the separation of races in church and actually not recognizing races as equals was the rule. The negro race was not acknowledged as equal to the white race until maybe the late 18th and 20th century.

To add: Judaism, Christianity and Islam did not and to a large now do not acknowledge the harmony of science and religion.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
This concept was first articulated in the pre-Christian philosophy of Stoicism, in Ancient Greece and the Roman Empire. The Stoics had stoas (schools) throughout the Empire and by the second century included the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius (121 - 180 CE) himself among their ranks, who wrote in his Meditations:


"If mind is common to us, then also the reason, whereby we are reasoning beings, is common. If this be so, then also the reason which enjoins what is to be done or left undone is common. If this be so, law also is common; if this be so, we are citizens; if this be so, we are partakers in one constitution; if this be so, the World is a kind of Commonwealth."

  • IV, 4 (as translated by ASL Farquharson)

That's why the word to describe this philosophical standpoint, cosmopolitanism, is Greek in origin - its etymology derived from kosmopolitês, formed from "κόσμος", kosmos, i.e. "world", and πολίτης, "politês", i.e. "citizen" or "[one] of a city" - literally, citizen of the world.

So when Baha'u'llah wrote in one of his tablets in the 19th century:


"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." (Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh, Lawh-i-Maqsúd)

He was giving voice to a concept that already been widely disseminated, discussed, hypothesized and idealised by hundreds of religious thinkers for two thousand years since the days of the Stoics, who coined the idea of (spiritual / epistemic / philosophical) world citizenship in a global commonwealth. It is also found in early Christianity, for example the writings of St. Paul (who may have been influenced by Stoic doctrine).

Neither Stoics, however - nor any other ancient thinkers - had yet conceived of an actual political framework (i.e. international organisation) because their concept remained purely philosophical (rooted in the idea of divine logos) and they didn't actually believe the world should be re-ordered as a global polity. The first concrete proposals for actual world political / supranational bodies and transnational arbitration between states emerged in the medieval period, in the writings of Catholic canon lawyers such as Pierre Dubois, Emeric Cruce and others.

It would therefore not count as an innovation in religious or philosophical thought for this idea to be propounded in the 19th century.

I agree with your comments.

How the Baha'i Faith would differ from Christianity is the extent to which principles are explicitly rather than implicitly stated.

One example is the principle of the oneness of humanity as above. Another is gender equality. While the NT may implicitly teach the equality of men and women, there are NT statements that appear to promote male domination and subjugation of women. The history of how Christianity has developed is often characterised by women having few rights.

The Baha'i Faith elevates the equality of men and women as an explicit and central teaching. While there is criticism of the Baha'i's administration having only men on the Universal House of Justice, every other institution including national and local assemblies along the institution of the counsellors have excellent representation from women.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Fancy words are no help.

I would ask that we keep this conversation civil and friendly, for the benefit of all (whether participants or readers).

It reflects what I describe as attempts at reform, which failed. Sorry no cigar nor brass ring. The unity of humanity and the races was never a part of the teachings of Christianity until recently, and the separation of races in church and actually not recognizing races as equals.

That is demonstrably untrue. I could cite gazillions of primary sources from the Patristics to the medievals before even touching the early modern, to evidence the centrality of this doctrine in early Christian theology (as in Stoicism). It is one of the most prominent themes scholars have identified in early Christian thought.

As the Jewish scholar Daniel Boyarin once explained, in his 1997 study A Radical Jew: Paul and the Politics of Identity, early Pauline Christianity proclaimed the doctrine of a "universal human essence, beyond difference and hierarchy" and called for "autonomy, equality, and species-wide solidarity".


"There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." (St. Paul, Galatians 3.28)

"God had two purposes in deriving all men from one man. His first purpose was to give unity to the human race by the likeness of nature. His second purpose was to bind mankind by the bond of peace, through blood relationship, into one harmonious whole.

And therefore God created only one single man, not, certainly, that he might be a solitary bereft of all society, but that by this means the unity of society and the bond of concord might be more effectually commended to him, men being bound together not only by similarity of nature, but by family affection [...]

And human nature has nothing more appropriate, either for the prevention of discord, or for the healing of it, where it exists, than the rememberance of that first parent of us all, whom God was pleased to create alone, that all men might be derived from one, and that they might thus be admonished to preserve unity among their whole multitude
"

- St. Augustine of Hippo ( 354 – 430 AD), Book XII of The City of God



The Unity of Mankind and the Sundered Adam

The unity of human beings is deeply important both in Augustine’s early and late works. Standing behind his writing is the idea that, despite the diversity of human beings, they are somehow one, inextricably united. Augustine’s case against the Donatists testifies to this; he earnestly attacked the Donatists’ separatism as “the most grievous sin that is involved in separation itself.

"...The image of God is found essentially and personally in all mankind. Each possesses it whole, entire and undivided, and all together not more than one alone. In this way we are all one, intimately united in our eternal image, which is the image of God and the source in us of all our life...."

- Blessed Jan van Ruysbroeck (1294 - 1381), Flemish mystic & Catholic priest
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
As I had mentioned in earlier discussions, much, if not all of the ideas that Baha'u'llah re-introduced were also in ancient Hindu scriptures, the Vedas (Upanishads in particular) , the Bhagavad Gita, the Tirukkural, and others. There may well have been a couple of 'new ' ideas but the extent that he is credited with being the origin of them is vastly overblown.

Outside of India, and Tamil Nadu in particular, the Tirukural is practically unheard of, yet it is the ethical book used in courts of law to 'swear' on.

The Impact of Thirukkural on Humanity - Le Mauricien
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Judaism, Christianity and Islam did not and to a large now do not acknowledge the harmony of science and religion.

So I must presume you have never read about the Islamic Golden Age (800 AD – 1258) and the first Renaissance of the 12th century in Christian Europe?

It was in medieval Christendom that the scientific concept of impetus, the predecessor to our modern conservation of momentum in physics, was discovered. The first experiment on it was conducted by a Christian natural philosopher in the same century that Muhammad was later born.

In his Mechanics, Hero of Alexandria (10 AD – c. 70 AD), an important Roman era mathematician and engineer, states unambiguously and uncritically on the authority of Aristotle that heavy objects fall faster than light ones. Now, this is a fundamental error that could have been proven wrong were Hero to have engaged in an experiment. Yet Hero did not do this nor any other ancient thinker.

It took a Christian philosopher named John Philoponus (490–570 A.D) to actually perform one of the earliest recorded experiments in the sixth century, to support his theories (which were critical of Aristotle courtesy of a set of Christian presuppositions), by dropping a heavy and light ball in the sixth century AD.

Philoponus discovered that both balls fell at almost the same speed: the objects (regardless of their mass) experienced the same acceleration when in a state of free fall. He had uncovered the equivalence principle, one of the fundamental principles of modern physics: drop two different weights, and (ignoring wind resistance) they will hit the ground at the same time.

Here is what Philoponus wrote concerning his experiment with the heavy and light balls:


"...But this [view of Aristotle] is completely erroneous, and our view may be completely corroborated by actual observation more effectively than by any sort of verbal argument. For if you let fall from the same height two weights, one many times heavier than the other you will see that the ratio of the times required for the motion does not depend [solely] on the weights, but that the difference in time is very small. ..."

— John Philoponus' refutation of the Aristotelian claim that the elapsed time for a falling body is inversely proportional to its weight


Philoponus also believed that objects could move in a vacuum and argued against antiperistasis (the untested Aristotelian theory that an object is kept in motion by air which travels from the front to the back, giving it a push).

Why did Philoponus reject this positively erroneous Aristotelian idea that his pagan forebears had simply endorsed on the authority of the great man? You guessed it, his Christian faith. Note the part which states: "Philoponus' theological work is recognized in the history of science as the first attempt at a unified theory of dynamics" (David C. Lindberg (15 March 1980), Science in the Middle Ages, University of Chicago Press, p. 11ff, ISBN 978-0-226-48233-0).

In the 14th century, the Catholic priest Jean Buridan postulated, based upon his reading of Philopponus, the notion of motive force, which he named "impetus". Buridan pointed out that Aristotle’s unmoved movers were not biblical in origin and moreover did not correspond with experimental observation.

He wrote:


When a mover sets a body in motion he implants into it a certain impetus, that is, a certain force enabling a body to move in the direction in which the mover starts it, be it upwards, downwards, sidewards, or in a circle.

The implanted impetus increases in the same ratio as the velocity. It is because of this impetus that a stone moves on after the thrower has ceased moving it. But because of the resistance of the air (and also because of the gravity of the stone) which strives to move it in the opposite direction to the motion caused by the impetus, the latter will weaken all the time.

In my opinion one can accept this explanation because the other explanations prove to be false whereas all phenomena agree with this one
(Questions on Aristotle's Metaphysics XII.9: 73ra)​


And he gave a religious basis for this idea, just like Philoponus before him:


"God, when He created the world, impressed in the celestial orbs impetuses which moved them without his having to move them any more…And those impetuses which he impressed in the celestial bodies were not decreased or corrupted afterwards, because there was no inclination of the celestial bodies for other movements. Nor was there resistance which would be corruptive or repressive of that impetus."

When Buridan moved towards the idea that motion does not require a continuous impulse — that objects left to themselves simply keep moving without any outside help — he enabled later generations to break with Aristotelian teleology, which had resulted in bad physics courtesy of his flawed metaphysics, and provided the groundwork for modern dynamics.


The 12th century Jewish philosopher and physician Maimonides likewise explained that:


The art of medicine rests both on experience and reasoning and the things which are known through experience are much more numerous than those known through reasoning. Since any individual’s experience is necessarily limited the physician must go beyond his experience and study prior physicians going back to Hippocrates and Galen – science is the root whereas the practical part is the branch and there can be no branch without a root.


And then we have the achievements of medieval Islamic scientists too:


Medieval Medical Experiments


Ibn al-Nafis, a Muslim physician from the 13th century, was more adamant in the need to base medical knowledge on experience rather than what he read. He explained “as regard the function of organs, we rely only on what is dictated by investigative observations and accurate research; not caring whether it conformed with, or differed from, the opinions of those who came before us.”

Again, the facts unfortunately prove your claims wrong.

Your understanding, or at least appreciation, of the achievements of past religions seems to be acutely lacking, if I may kindly say so.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It would therefore not count as an innovation in religious or philosophical thought for this idea to be propounded in the 19th century.

That supports what was offered by Baha'u'llah, that the foundation od all God given Faith is One.

In each age it is renewed with laws suited to the new age.

Thus some aspects are now part of what needs to be practiced, not just a desire or just a good idea, they are required in practice of one's faith

Regards Tony
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
As I had mentioned in earlier discussions, much, if not all of the ideas that Baha'u'llah re-introduced were also in ancient Hindu scriptures, the Vedas (Upanishads in particular) , the Bhagavad Gita, the Tirukkural, and others. There may well have been a couple of 'new ' ideas but the extent that he is credited with being the origin of them is vastly overblown.

Outside of India, and Tamil Nadu in particular, the Tirukural is practically unheard of, yet it is the ethical book used in courts of law to 'swear' on.

The Impact of Thirukkural on Humanity - Le Mauricien

Fascinating, many thanks for this!

@Vinayaka would you happen to know of a good, accessible but still scholarly / professional English translation of the Tirukkural? (Preferably with commentary and footnotes, as well as suggestions for secondary studies on the text).

It sounds like a world classic of religious literature that I need to familiarise myself with.

I have read translations of portions of the Vedas, the Upanishads (my favourite being the Chandogya Upanishad - That art Thou, as one of those beautiful older English translations puts it), the Bhagavad Gita, a few of the Puranas etc.

I've also studied Sikh literature such as the Guru Granth Sahib and the Dasam Granth, along with large swathes of the Buddhist Pali Canon and parts of the Jain Agamas.

But I had never heard of the Tirukkal before. Having read up on it over the last hour, I'm amazed that such an important sacred text has escaped my notice until now in my past forays into ancient Indian literature.

Must be addressed!

This really piqued my interest:

Tirukkuṛaḷ - Wikipedia

Jesuit, Catholic and Protestant missionaries in colonial-era South India praised the text. The Protestant missionary Edward Jewitt Robinson said that the Kural contains all things and there is nothing which it does not contain.[142] The Anglican missionary John Lazarus said, "No Tamil work can ever approach the purity of the Kural. It is a standing repute to modern Tamil."[142] According to the American Christian missionary Emmons E. White, "Thirukkural is a synthesis of the best moral teachings of the world."[142] Rajaji commented, "It is the gospel of love and a code of soul-luminous life. The whole of human aspiration is epitomized in this immortal book, a book for all ages."[142]

I must admit, that's quite the book review! :D

If you perchance have a good translation, I'm putting it on the Christmas wishlist and will have a bash at reading it over the festive season, with some mulled wine and a mince pie.
 
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wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
  • Elimination of all forms of prejudice
  • Independent investigation of truth
  • Obedience to government and non-involvement in partisan politics.
  • Elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty

Unity of God. What does that even mean?
Unity of whose concept of God? How would that benefit all of the various god believing humans who currently believe in the God(s) that currently guide and comfort them?

Unity of religion. How so? Why would Baha'I be the choice of all other faithful of all other religions and belief systems? What are the real time benefits of all humanity becoming Baha'i?

Unity of humanity? What does that look like? What does unity of mankind even mean and how would that benefit all of humanity in real time?

Knock equality of men and women off that list because there is no equality of men and women in a system where only the men are allowed to hold the highest positions of power and authority. Humanism already covers this one.

Same with the end of prejudice. Something Humanist and many enlightened people continue to strive for. it is not a Baha'I exclusive new idea. What exactly is new about this idea and what is the process to achieve it?

World peace and a new world order. Here we get to the really interesting stuff. First of all world peace is something almost all religions teach and what most humane and sensible people would want in the past and do want now. So do does not count as a Baha'I exclusive idea. A new world order led by God and Baha'I Is a totally separate idea than world wide peace. It needs it's own line. What would a new world order actually look like? How would it fuction to serve all of humanity? How would it begin to enforce the regulations necessary to keep the entire planet from deciding it no longer wants to follow the world order? What are the benefits of having a new world order and what does that entail if it were real time now?

Harmony of science and religion? They are already as compatible as would ever be which is not and there is no place for religion within science. They are totally separate realms with totally different functions. So no.

Independent investigation is exactly what any rational atheist, humanist and many religious minded people do currently and always. Strike it off the list please.

Education? I've read the curriculum of Baha"I "education". Again a current idea to have education available to all.

Universal language? Please. English people have been trying to make English a world wide language for centuries through colonialism, acculturation, destruction of native languages and cultures. English is already a necessary second language for anyone around the world who needs to participate in business with the great American nation. Don't you watch PBS? And what language are we going to use? Doublespeak? If Baha'i came up with a language everyone could speak how do they stop people from speaking their native tongue? Go back to the old days where a child is beaten for speaking it? Strike it as a good idea. It's been tried right here in the past . It's a bad idea.

Ah, and here is the kicker and final nail in the Baha'I coffin. Obeying government. Obeying government? Not participating in the new world order? How would that even begin to work and what is the purpose? And of course knock it off the list. Tyrants, kings, popes, and now oligarchs have demanded obedience to their agendas and powers for EVER. We see where the world is now from these practices. How exactly does Bahai plan on having everyone obey any and all wishes of those in complete power? Is this the great new laws and traditions? NOT a new idea and one we have in the west progressed away from through the ideals of democracy as crude as they currently are. It is a far cry from the old days of tyranny and a denial of participation by the very citizens the government rules. And Baha'I want to use God as the given authority in all matters social or otherwise? WHO GETS TO DECIDE WHAT A UNKNOWABLE GOD WANTS IT'S SUBJECTS TO DO? No one who has had a taste of democracy is going to allow a Baha'I theocracy or any other suppose god ordained power to rule them. Strike it as a new and improved religious law or practice. It is a very bad idea for everyone except Baha'I followers and tyranical leaders.

Please, fighting for equality and fairness in economics, a more fair wealth distribution and human rights is a mainstay of humanist ,atheists and religions worldwide. Strike it off the list as a Bahai invention and a new and better way exclusive to that religion .

No slavery. NO SLAVERY? Yeah, that's a new idea put forth by Bahai. Something no one has ever thought of before.

So, I believe that covers all of the 'new' ideas put forth by Bahai. Now I know for certain all of the proselytizing, shared, homongnous repetitive posts in these forums are just that. This is the Baha'I religion. There is little that is new and the new social laws and teachings which are the basis of the system which claim to be exclusive are very bad ideas.

So thank you for the list. I see nothing which would cause me to voluntarily give up being a humanists atheists. Nothing at all in that list which isn't already happening through many channels. If it doesn't convince people now to give up clinging to their, acording to Bahai themselves, abrogated religions and humanists world views, it sure is not going to do it in the future. So why all talk by Bahai? Why cling to an old 'new' religion with outdated laws and doctrines and social teachings that I'm betting not even the most ardent of proselytizers follow? It's been replaced by progressive humans, free thinkers and adherents to reason and common sense.

But thank you for pointing out the purpose and benefits of your religion. Seems like a whole lot of talk about nothing to me.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Unity of God. What does that even mean?
Unity of whose concept of God? How would that benefit all of the various god believing humans who currently believe in the God(s) that currently guide and comfort them?

There are several aspects of the Unity of God: (1) God is one God unified and not definable by any human perspective like the Trinity, and incarnate Gods. (2) The different names and descriptions of God in different cultures and times is the same God from the human perspective. (3) There is only one God, Monotheism. (4) God is unknowable from the human perspective and we know God only through the attributes of God in Revelation.

Unity of religion. How so? Why would Baha'I be the choice of all other faithful of all other religions and belief systems? What are the real time benefits of all humanity becoming Baha'i?

The spiritual organic evolving unity of Revelation involving the entire history of humanity in all cultures as what humans call religions or belief systems. Humans evolve both physically and spiritually.

Unity of humanity? What does that look like? What does unity of mankind even mean and how would that benefit all of humanity in real time?

It is acknowledge the oneness, unity and equality of all races, which prior to the late 19th and 20th centuries was not acknowledged nor believed. The belief in the superiority of race was believe in both the East and the West.

Knock equality of men and women off that list because there is no equality of men and women in a system where only the men are allowed to hold the highest positions of power and authority.

The principle applies to the social and legal equality in society, Also, not part of human society Theist nor Humanist in the past.

Humanism already covers this one.

Only very recently

Same with the end of prejudice. Something Humanist and many enlightened people continue to strive for. it is not a Baha'I exclusive new idea. What exactly is new about this idea and what is the process to achieve it?

Only very recently

World peace and a new world order. Here we get to the really interesting stuff. First of all world peace is something almost all religions teach and what most humane and sensible people would want in the past and do want now. So do does not count as a Baha'I exclusive idea. A new world order led by God and Baha'I Is a totally separate idea than world wide peace. It needs it's own line. What would a new world order actually look like? How would it fuction to serve all of humanity? How would it begin to enforce the regulations necessary to keep the entire planet from deciding it no longer wants to follow the world order? What are the benefits of having a new world order and what does that entail if it were real time now? [/quote]

The bold is absolutely false for Judaism, Christianity and Islam. You look into the Baha'i Faith a little more without your acrid superficial dismissal. The Baha'i Faith teaches the unity of the human race comes before nationalism and tribalism. Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not.

Harmony of science and religion? They are already as compatible as would ever be which is not and there is no place for religion within science. They are totally separate realms with totally different functions. So no.

Your acrid dismissal of religion comes full force here. The past was hindered by the conflicts between religion and science. The Baha'i Faith teaches this harmony where the religions of the past did not, or only conditionally. The Baha'i Faith teaches that the scriptures must be understood in the light of the advancing knowledge of science.

Independent investigation is exactly what any rational atheist, humanist and many religious minded people do currently and always. Strike it off the list please.

Remains on the list. As far as religions this is a very recent movement if at all. Traditionally and for many today the scriptures and the clergy rule the necessary obedience of the flock.

Education? I've read the curriculum of Baha"I "education". Again a current idea to have education available to all.

The idea of religion for remains a very recent movement and taught in the scripture of the ancient religions.

Universal language? Please. English people have been trying to make English a world wide language for centuries through colonialism, acculturation, destruction of native languages and cultures. English is already a necessary second language for anyone around the world who needs to participate in business with the great American nation. Don't you watch PBS? And what language are we going to use? Doublespeak? If Baha'i came up with a language everyone could speak how do they stop people from speaking their native tongue? Go back to the old days where a child is beaten for speaking it? Strike it as a good idea. It's been tried right here in the past . It's a bad idea.

You not understand nor have you read the Baha'i view of a universal religion, for the world the diverse people will speak at least two languages, their own and a universal language. The evolved English may or may not be that universal language, and the answer is a flat no this concept was not in past religions.

No slavery. NO SLAVERY? Yeah, that's a new idea put forth by Bahai. Something no one has ever thought of before.

It is not a matter of not thought of before, but the religions of the past did not condemn slavery as a fundamental teaching in their scriptures, which resulted in slavery in one form or another in all these cultures in cluding indentured servitude.

<snip> the soap box, and the failure to actually read and understand the Baha'i principles. in the full context of the Baha'i Faith, and the other ancient religions of the world. A distinct lack of an Independent Investigation.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
re: #4. Other than the fact that the god they believe in is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jesus?
Most all cultures had some kind of religious beliefs and some kind of God or Gods they believed in. To me, they were made up by the people in that culture. If from there the various religious beliefs progressed or evolved, I could believe that. Even how people believed in and defined God or the Gods could evolve or progress also.

But, I find it difficult to believe that the one true God sent messengers to all people with a consistent message of what is the truth. But the people added things and changed things in that original message. Then after a period of time, God sent a new messenger to bring basically the same message but with added "social" laws that would lead people to advance to a higher level of civilization.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I think all of these theories about progressive revelations etc are mostly apologetics. There could be some changes in whatever God (if there is one) was deeming right to send as a message to humans depending on what ever is right (I cannot speak for God), but people are making a lot of things up to divide, unite, justify, plagiarise, spread, etc etc. And most of these things are assumptions.
I think plagiarizing is something that should be looked into here. Like the flood story. Or dying and raising God/men. Is there a God directed progression, or people borrowing myths from other cultures and working them into their religious myths?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
You may wish to reflect on the 10 commandments Yahweh gave to Moses.

Exodus 20

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20 - New International Version

Consider each one and how it relates not only to the Abrahamic Faiths but the Dharmic ones too. If you want to truly examine what is common and what is unique to each Faith then associate with peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship.
But it is Baha'is that are saying the truth of all the major religions is that they are a progression from the one true God. There should be eternal spiritual truths that all those religions agree on, especially who is God and what happen to people after they die. Then, from the oldest to the newest, there should be a progression of "social" laws given by God to advance civilization to the next level. So can Baha'is do that and include all the major religions?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't think I missed any posts but if I did I apologize. I asked what "new spiritual laws for this day" do the Baha'I propose which are exclusive to their religion and are not in this day, followed by atheists, humanist, or followers of other religions?

I only asked for a couple. And being that the entire claim for Baha'i is that it is needed because of the new laws and practices in order to save humanity and that all other religions are outdated and should now follow Baha'i, I would think that would be a major question they would be jumping up and down to answer.

However, I have asked several times in various threads over several months and have never received an answer other than investigate it myself. It just doesn't make sense. Something just doesn't add up.
I am sorry I missed seeing you ask this question. Owing to time limitations I normally only read on threads I am posting on, and even on those threads I do not have time to read all the posts, so often I only read posts that are posted directly to me because I feel responsible to answer them whenever a response is warranted.

I was finished posting on this thread, so I only saw your post because I got an e-mail notification with your post so I did not have to go looking on the thread. I am glad I got that notification.

The Baha’i Faith has a Book of Laws exclusive to the religion but I do not think that is what you are after. I think it is the teachings and mission that are unique to the Baha’i Faith that you are asking about. The best way to demonstrate how different the Baha’i Faith is from any other religion is to quote some excerpts from the Preface to The Promised Day is Come.

The Promised Day Is Come is a book-length letter written by Shoghi Effendi, who was the Guardian and the head of the Baha’i Faith in the first half of the 20th century. Please bear in mind that it was written in 1941, long before there was the much talk about governments working together cooperatively, long before there was any talk about the coming together of religions as we hear in the news today, and long before there was any talk about the elimination of prejudices of all kinds.

Even if I did not believe in God, I would be attracted to the Baha’i teachings and mission for saving humanity; and in fact the reason I joined the Baha’i Faith in the first place was because of these teachings and mission. When I first became a Baha’i and for decades afterwards I knew nothing about God, and I really did not think much about God since I did not believe God was that important the way I do now that I am older.

My interest in God as it is related to the Baha’i Faith only began about seven years ago. I then started reading what Baha’u’llah wrote about God and I was in awe. It was after that that my heart connected with my mind and I knew why God was a necessary part of the solution to the world’s problems, although it will be humans doing the work to change the world, not Jesus coming down out of the clouds as Christians believe. In that sense Baha’is are like humanists, only we believe that God is assisting us every step of the way, if we do the footwork.

Some atheists, humanists, or followers of other religions might be thinking along some of the same lines as Baha’is in keeping with the spirit of the new age ushered in by Baha’u’llah but no other religion teaches the same things or has the same mission as the Baha’i Faith so in that sense it is unique.

I hope the following excerpts will help you understand how the Baha’i Faith is unique. If you click on the link at the bottom you can read the whole Preface.

The fundamental principle enunciated by Bahá’u’lláh … is that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process, that all the great religions of the world are divine in origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony, that their aims and purposes are one and the same, that their teachings are but facets of one truth, that their functions are complementary, that they differ only in the nonessential aspects of their doctrines, and that their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of human society….

…His mission is to proclaim that the ages of the infancy and of the childhood of the human race are past, that the convulsions associated with the present stage of its adolescence are slowly and painfully preparing it to attain the stage of manhood, and are heralding the approach of that Age of Ages when swords will be beaten into plowshares, when the Kingdom promised by Jesus Christ will have been established, and the peace of the planet definitely and permanently ensured. Nor does Bahá’u’lláh claim finality for His own Revelation, but rather stipulates that a fuller measure of the truth He has been commissioned by the Almighty to vouchsafe to humanity, at so critical a juncture in its fortunes, must needs be disclosed at future stages in the constant and limitless evolution of mankind.

The Bahá’í Faith upholds the unity of God, recognizes the unity of His Prophets, and inculcates the principle of the oneness and wholeness of the entire human race. It proclaims the necessity and the inevitability of the unification of mankind, asserts that it is gradually approaching, and claims that nothing short of the transmuting spirit of God, working through His chosen Mouthpiece in this day, can ultimately succeed in bringing it about. It, moreover, enjoins upon its followers the primary duty of an unfettered search after truth, condemns all manner of prejudice and superstition, declares the purpose of religion to be the promotion of amity and concord, proclaims its essential harmony with science, and recognizes it as the foremost agency for the pacification and the orderly progress of human society….

The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents. Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected…

—Shoghi Effendi


The Promised Day Is Come, v - vii
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I think plagiarizing is something that should be looked into here. Like the flood story. Or dying and raising God/men. Is there a God directed progression, or people borrowing myths from other cultures and working them into their religious myths?

Or all cultures may have known this story and the stories evolved into their own versions. A parallel or similarity doesnt necessarily mean plagiarism. And one book writing a similar story another book seems to have doesnt necessarily mean one plagiarised from the other. Maybe both have the the same root somewhere else.

So maybe the epic of Gilgamesh and the Bible both were influenced from one story of historicity independently.
 
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