Is progressive revelation believable?

[Terry Sampson]

1. So what of those who testify the most important people in their lives were Muslims, Buddhists, Baha’is or Hindus?
2. What if those who feel profoundly moved or have had life changing experiences through Muhammad, Buddha, Bahá’u’lláh or Krishna?

re: #1. What of them? Let's take a trip down memory lane ...

• I believe that one of the main reasons why some people of different faiths can't recognize progressive revelation is because of tribalism. It's about home team with people weather that be team christian or team islam. What people have to realize is that this is not about which team or tribe that you want to stick with, this is about what's true and trying to find the truths where ever we can. Plus we have to recognize this is the age of unity, that the whole human species is one family and the earth is our home.

• And we need the Baha'u'llah to tell us that? Or we're supposed to believe that the Baha'ullah is the physical manifestation of a divine revelation just because he said that humans are one family and earth is our home? You're gonna have to give me something better than that to keep me interested. How about this: Was Baha'u'llah an Einsteinian Relativist or an Anti-relativist?

• Apparently we do.
  We still have racism, war, pollution, separation of city, state and countries.
  I would think that it would be good if a Manifestation of God have to let us know that the human species is one family.

• Agreed, but in the same vein, we don't need Jesus to say it either. Yeah, but there can be some really good fanfics out there.

• • The nine most important people in my life, eight are dead; my wife remains with me. Of the eight, all believed in (i.e. trusted in) Jesus' promises, and none of the nine were/are biologically related to me.

  • My biological parents were married, but not to each other.

  • From the age of 3 months until just before my 12th birthday, I was raised by my father's wife.

  • Because the state's social services department threatened to remove me from my step-mother's care, she went to her pastor and told him that she wanted him to take me so that she could know that I would be raised in a Christian home.

  • He and his wife took me in, with my consent, and I became one of their six children. I'm the only one they adopted.

  • All of the people important to me are important because they did things and made sacrifices for me personally that I did not ask for but which saved me from a worse fate.

  • My name, during my first 3 months, was John Sterling Mayfield. From 3 months of age until just before my 12th birthday, my name was Terry Lee Montgomery; From the age of 12, my name has been Terry Montgomery Sampson.

  • I have been the beneficiary from the age of 3 months of people who were not perfect but who did extraordinary things because they believed what they believed.

  • Whether you understand me or not, whether you agree with me or not, I'm not going to deny the importance and relevance of Jesus in my life. I'm sorry that he hasn't been important or relevant in yours. I have never benefited from the Baha'u'llah's or Muhammad's life or words. If anyone else has, so be it, but as for me, I will follow Jesus.

Now, let's connect the dots:

• od19g6 says (Baha'i's) Progressive Revelation is, presumably believable and unrecognized by many because it implicitly does what "tribalistic" revelation fails to do: it seeks truth and tries to find truths where ever it can, PLUS this is the "age of unity": "the whole human species is one family and the earth is our home"
• I asked: Is all of humanity to believe that it needs the Baha'u'lla to proclaim that humanity is one family or that he is the physical manifestation of a divine revelation just because he said that all of humanity is one family and earth is its home?
• od19g6 responds: "Apparently."
• Kelly of the Phoenix agreed with my question and implicit assertion that humanity doesn't need the Baha'u'llah to tell it that humanity is one family and earth is its home. AND added that she believes that Jesus is as unnecessary as Baha'u'llah.
• I responded, at some length, stating several personal, specific facts showing, not that everyone should believe that Jesus is necessary, but that important people in my life did extraordinary things from which he personally benefited, and that because of those benefits, I follow Jesus.
• In other words, I was trying to point out to Kelly that I wouldn't be Terry Sampson, married and living in Los Angeles if the important people in my life had not known of or believed in Jesus. Instead, there's an extremely high probability (in the high 90s%) that I'd have been John Sterling Mayfield, a miserable slug, like my two half-brothers, born of my biological mother, and as dead as they are now.
• So, in response to your first question, what of them?
• As for your second question: What if?

 

[shunyadragon]

But what you don't know is I took the gunpowder out of the gun.

the trigger is harmless!

Then you are firing blanks all this time, and singling me out as the bad guy among the Baha'is is just a ruse.

 

[Terry Sampson]

firing blacks

???

 

[Dawnofhope]

But here's what I know about you, Adrain. You value interfaith dialogue. So I kinda figure you would meet me halfway on this. I'm taking a risk asking any questions at all at this point. I think the least you can do... like the very least... is to meet me halfway and let me know if my question turns out to be disrespectful. It's a small favor. a small favor which was declined.

Thoughts?

Dear Daniel,

We're all responsible adults here. We are each responsible for communicating in a civil, respectful manner and graciously accept feedback when we cross the line and become discourteous and disrespectful. You asked me if I would let you know when you became disrespectful and I said I would try. I didn't guarantee I would. I appreciate that's not the definitive "yes" you were looking for. I realise my statement of "I will try" is not satisfactory.

Your response:

"Sorry. My trigger is dodging a simple yes or no question.

I am hearing you say: "No daniel, I will not be honest with you. If I think you're being disrespectful, I will not tell you.".

You didn't say that. but the non-answer is enough. I can't ask you anything about progressive revelation. I though it was logical at the beginning of the thread. And I now I have changed my mind. Now I don't think it's logical at all.

'nuff said.

And I can't see any other way out of it. Cause I can't get honest answers to simple questions.

And so, Baha'i is forever off-limits to me. So be it."

Is progressive revelation believable?

I accept your unwillingness to progress our conversation further. I apologise for anything I may have said to offend you. It was never my intention. Beyond that I won't say anything further that will make matters worse than they already are. I wish you well Daniel.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Does that mean God is Baha or God is best?

No

Alláh-u-Abhá - Wikipedia

 

[firedragon]

No

Alláh-u-Abhá - Wikipedia

Thanks.

 

[firedragon]

Thanks.

Your link doesn't answer my question. You didnt answer my question either. You just said no. Is there something wrong? What kind of response is a "no" and a link to a page?

 

[shunyadragon]

???

@dybmh said he took the gunpowder out of the gun.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Your link doesn't answer my question. You didnt answer my question either. You just said no. Is there something wrong? What kind of response is a "no" and a link to a page?

You asked about the meaning of the word "Alláh-u-Abhá”. It does not mean God is Baha, nor does it mean God is best.

According to the notes section of the Kitab-i-Aqdas:


“Alláh-u-Abhá” is an Arabic phrase meaning “God the All-Glorious”. It is a form of the Greatest Name of God. In Islám there is a tradition that among the many names of God, one was the greatest; however, the identity of this Greatest Name was hidden. Bahá’u’lláh has confirmed that the Greatest Name is “Bahá”.


The various derivatives of the word “Bahá” are also regarded as the Greatest Name. Shoghi Effendi’s secretary writing on his behalf explains that


The Greatest Name is the Name of Bahá’u’lláh. “Yá Bahá’u’l-Abhá” is an invocation meaning: “O Thou Glory of Glories!”. “Alláh-u-Abhá” is a greeting which means: “God the All-Glorious”. Both refer to Bahá’u’lláh. By Greatest Name is meant that Bahá’u’lláh has appeared in God’s Greatest Name, in other words, that He is the supreme Manifestation of God.


The greeting “Alláh-u-Abhá” was adopted during the period of Bahá’u’lláh’s exile in Adrianople.


The repetition of “Alláh-u-Abhá” ninety-five times is to be preceded by the performance of ablutions.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Page 180



I hope that clarifies what the word “Alláh-u-Abhá” means and the background to its use.

 

[firedragon]

“Alláh-u-Abhá” is an Arabic phrase meaning “God the All-Glorious”. It is a form of the Greatest Name of God.

So it basically means God is best.

Thats all i wanted to clarify.

Thanks.

 

[Dawnofhope]

re: #1. What of them? Let's take a trip down memory lane ...
Now, let's connect the dots:

• od19g6 says (Baha'i's) Progressive Revelation is, presumably believable and unrecognized by many because it implicitly does what "tribalistic" revelation fails to do: it seeks truth and tries to find truths where ever it can, PLUS this is the "age of unity": "the whole human species is one family and the earth is our home"
• I asked: Is all of humanity to believe that it needs the Baha'u'lla to proclaim that humanity is one family or that he is the physical manifestation of a divine revelation just because he said that all of humanity is one family and earth is its home?
• od19g6 responds: "Apparently."
• Kelly of the Phoenix agreed with my question and implicit assertion that humanity doesn't need the Baha'u'llah to tell it that humanity is one family and earth is its home. AND added that she believes that Jesus is as unnecessary as Baha'u'llah.
• I responded, at some length, stating several personal, specific facts showing, not that everyone should believe that Jesus is necessary, but that important people in my life did extraordinary things from which he personally benefited, and that because of those benefits, I follow Jesus.
• In other words, I was trying to point out to Kelly that I wouldn't be Terry Sampson, married and living in Los Angeles if the important people in my life had not known of or believed in Jesus. Instead, there's an extremely high probability (in the high 90s%) that I'd have been John Sterling Mayfield, a miserable slug, like my two half-brothers, born of my biological mother, and as dead as they are now.
• So, in response to your first question, what of them?
• As for your second question: What if?

I have no doubt about your sincerity and the authenticity of your life story. I believe Jesus really did save you and contributed positively to the character of those who made a difference in your life. However people who have grown up in other cultures and faiths traditions who also experienced great hardship and challenges growing up. Many have found spiritual strength and solace within the faith traditions of their communities without needing to becoming Christians. So for those people hearing about Jesus and the Teachings He brought is as unnecessary as hearing about Baha'u'llah.

 

[CG Didymus]

In each age it is renewed with laws suited to the new age.

Or, the new religion of a people is suited to them and not necessarily to others? And there is always the question of religion that most would consider false. Like the non-Jewish religions that Christianity replaced. How do Bahai's view those religions of Greece and Rome? Still a progression from a true religion to a new religion better suited for the age? Or a false religion, called out as being false by the new religion, which itself has beliefs that Baha'is consider false?

since this thread is about the Baha'is concept of progressive revelation... do you see any reason to believe there is a progression from Hinduism to Judaism then to Buddhism, then I guess Zoroastrianism to Christianity to Islam then to the Baha'i Faith? The big change is going from a progression from Hinduism to Judaism. And since the next manifestation sent to update the truth from God I think would be the Buddha, then God's truth has to go from Judaism to Buddhism then to Zoroastrianism then Christianity? That would be some jumping around.

Out of all the things I said, you respond only to the last sentence?

Your own self, your own choices.

Tony, tell me how you go from Hinduism in India to Judaism in the Middle East, then back to India for Buddhism and so on? And all with very different beliefs and social laws?

The Baha’i Writings don’t support a linear progressive Revelation. Its more complex than that. Consider the words of Abdul-Baha and Bahá’u’lláh.

Among the bounties of God is revelation. Hence revelation is progressive and continuous. It never ceases.

So it's not like the different grades in school? It jumps around? But, what about the evolution or progression within a religion? Yes, I would agree. it is very complex. Spiritual thought and religions are ever changing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So it's not like the different grades in school? It jumps around? But, what about the evolution or progression within a religion? Yes, I would agree. it is very complex. Spiritual thought and religions are ever changing.

Of course religions evolve and progress as they go from their earliest days with their first followers to a stage where they have followers that make up the majority of peoples throughout many lands and have a profound influence on culture at levels of society and contribute to an ever advancing civilisation. We can see this by considering the Islamic Golden Age and the proliferation of advancements in the sciences and arts. It was apparent through Eastern Orthodox Christianity that arose from the Byzantium Empire and Western Civilisation through the renaissance and beyond. There will be similar narratives for both Hinduism and Buddhism.

A useful document to consider Baha'u'llah's Revelation viewed from a twenty first century lens is 'One Common Faith' commissioned by the Baha'i World Centre.

Religion, thus conceived, awakens the soul to potentialities that are otherwise unimaginable. To the extent that an individual learns to benefit from the influence of the revelation of God for his age, his nature becomes progressively imbued with the attributes of the Divine world: "Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth", Bahá'u'lláh explains, "every man will advance and develop until he ... can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed." As humanity's purpose includes the carrying forward of "an ever-advancing civilization",not the least of the extraordinary powers that religion possesses has been its ability to free those who believe from the limitations of time itself, eliciting from them sacrifices on behalf of generations centuries into the future. Indeed, because the soul is immortal, its awakening to its true nature empowers it, not only in this world but even more directly in those worlds that lie beyond, to serve the evolutionary process: "The light which these souls radiate", Bahá'u'lláh asserts, "is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples.... All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being."

One Common Faith

 

[Trailblazer]

That is odd. I don't know why you would get an email notification of my posting.

I will normally get an e-mail notification when someone posts on a thread I am posting on, but I won’t get e-mail notifications for the posts that are posted after that one. It could be anybody so guess that was luck of the draw that I saw your post.

I think any system which would try to propose everyone else to leave their own systems and beliefs to join such a movement in the future and under the pretense of it being new and improved over their own views is probably always going to be an uphill battle.

Baha’is do not propose that anyone leave their older religions and become Baha’is. That decision would have to be totally voluntary. We believe that in the future people will all become part of one religion because God has ordained that, but that will not happen until people choose to relinquish their older religions. It is not looking like that is going to happen any time soon. The “one religion” will not be called the Baha’i Faith unless that happens before the next Messenger of God comes and establishes a new religion. That one religion that everyone adheres to could be called anything, depending upon when it is established. This is how I see the future, but other Baha’is might have different ideas.

There just aren't any great new ideas presented here which haven't been proposed before or are already in practice by others.

What other major religions of the past do you think have ideas and practices similar to the Baha’i Faith?

It seems to be a fact that the basic tenets Baha'i of replacing "abrogated beliefs" are insulting to others outside that system even if the Baha'i followers don't see it when the reasons are explained to them.

Of course I understand the reasons why it seems insulting, but it cannot be avoided if a Baha’i is to be honest. From my point of view as a Baha’i, it makes no sense that people would continue to follow all these different religions that were established thousands of years ago. It would be kind of like riding in a horse and buggy to cross the United States vs taking an airplane. From my perspective, I do not know why people cannot understand this and my only conclusion is that they are so attached to their religions that they are unwilling to relinquish them. Also I see this as selfish because all they are thinking about is what works for them, like a pair of shoes that fits them;they are not thinking of the good for the whole of humanity.

Of course, from their perspective, their religion is the only true religion from God so they would be rejecting God if they relinquished it, but if one religion is the only true religion that would mean that all the other religions are false. It makes no logical sense that one religion is true and all the others are false. I mean how much sense does it make that Judaism is the only true religion meaning that all but 14 million Jews are following a false religion with no real God behind it? One cannot honestly say that the Torah is the only scripture revealed by God without saying that all the other religions are false. Likewise, how much sense does it make that Christianity is the only true religion? That would mean that the 22% of people in the world who are Muslims are all deluded, following a false God. What kind of a Loving God would allow that many people to go astray? It just does not make any sense.

There is no way around this conundrum except the Baha’i Faith because the Baha’i Faith is the only religion that allows for all the religions being the truth from God, each one revealed at various stages of mankind’s spiritual evolution, various chapters in the eternal religion of God.

Baha’u’llah wrote that God wants everyone to follow Him because the Baha’i Faith is the religion that has the remedy the world needs in this age and because that is the only way humanity can ever achieve world unity.The Baha’i Faith theology of progressive revelation made perfect sense to me when I first heard about it because I had no confirmation bias towards any other religion since I was never a member of any other religion.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That is odd. I don't know why you would get an email notification of my posting.

Anyway thank you and @adrian009, @shunyadragon for your explanations of your views about this belief system. It certainly seems to be a large topic on these forums. One that doesn't seem very embraced or popular as a viable future solution to humanity's woes. I was just trying to get to the bottom of why that is. There are so many hundreds of these different belief systems out there it is interesting to find out why some are so advertised while others just go about their practices quietly without so much public fanfare. I think I understand from the comments of those of other faiths and non why Baha'i is seen in such a negative light. It must be difficult constantly trying to defend and promote such controversial ideas. I think any system which would try to propose everyone else to leave their own systems and beliefs to join such a movement in the future and under the pretense of it being new and improved over their own views is probably always going to be an uphill battle. There just aren't any great new ideas presented here which haven't been proposed before or are already in practice by others. It serms to be a fact that the basic tenets Baha'i of replacing "abrogated beliiefs" are insulting to others outside that system even if the Baha'i followers don't see it when the reasons are explained to them.

And thank you @Vouthon for the interesting and very informative history of these various ideas and proposals. I think this is the true meaning of independent investigation. One has to be willing to look at all available and reliable information with an open mind and when new previously unknown information becomes available to the investigators, they must be open to changing their previous held views. Otherwise it is useless to investigate anything if it is just ignored. Or worse, thought of as some type of attack on the subject at hand. Conformation bias and ignorance of history and facts is a definite obstacle to a truly progressive humanity. You have excellent writing skills and are a pleasure to read.

The Baha'i Faith certainly receives a great deal of criticism. Although we are a world religion in the sense that we have communities in most countries and territories throughout the world our numbers are relatively modest with an estimated 5 - 7 million Baha'is world. Compared with Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism we are very small. As a Faith community we have never had a significant role to play in a war with any country or other faith community unlike all other religions. However some of the ideas within the Baha'i community are certainly controversial as you asset.

Like the Christians we believe in the Divine origins of the New Testament and many of the core tenants of Christianity. However we don't believe in all the core beliefs that many Christians would consider fundamental such as the resurrection or the Trinity. We believe in the Divine origins of Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam so we are immediately off side with many Christians.

Like the Muslims we believe Muhammad was a Messenger of God and the Quran is to be regarded as an authenticated repository of the Word of God. However we do not believe Muhammad was the final Prophet and there are the Twin Prophets of the Baha'i Faith who have brought a New Revelation. That is considered apostasy, a crime punishable by death in some parts of the Islamic world.

The Baha'is view Buddhism and Hinduism as religions with Divine origins. Well the Hindus will be quick to point out we don't believe in reincarnation and our understanding of Krishna is incorrect in that He is literally Vishnu (part of the Triumvirate of Hindu gods that also includes Brahma and Shiva). Many Buddhists in the West believe Buddha rejected theism so calling the Buddha a Manifestation of God gets us into trouble.

Humanists who can trace their human rights principles to the European enlightenment and in fact to ancient civilisations such as the Greeks, Romans and Persians. So humanists will be quick to point out our principles are nothing new. Anyone who takes the time to learn world history will quickly realise there was democracy in some parts of Greece nearly 2 1/2 thousand years ago, so what's the big deal with the Baha'i governing institutions that are characterised by democracy?

I must emphasise the Baha'is are not on this forum orchestrating a campaign of conversion. We're a disparate group from all around the globe who for the most part didn't know each other before we came here. I presume like myself, we're mostly here to learn and develop a better understanding of comparative religion, world history and science. We're not asking anyone to join our ranks. If we were, it would be against the rules of the forum. So thank you for sharing your perspective of the Baha'i Faith as you've experienced it. I truly wish you well.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Or, the new religion of a people is suited to them and not necessarily to others

It is a journey of self discovery for all. To those that accept, it is a greater challenge.

Regards Tony

 

[Terry Sampson]

@dybmh said he took the gunpowder out of the gun.

Right. And you responded with:

"Firing blacks", not with "firing blanks".

 

[Aupmanyav]

I'm not entirely sure where this is heading....?

Not particularly anywhere. Was just curious about your views. With the acceptance of Jesus as God, I see that you are a propah Christian.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. and singling me out as the bad guy among the Baha'is is just a ruse.

No, all Bahais are more or less the same. You don't find the Hindu variety among them. How could one choose any!

 

[Terry Sampson]

However people who have grown up in other cultures and faiths traditions who also experienced great hardship and challenges growing up. Many have found spiritual strength and solace within the faith traditions of their communities without needing to becoming Christians. So for those people hearing about Jesus and the Teachings He brought is as unnecessary as hearing about Baha'u'llah.

Right, and I don't doubt that those who grew up "in other cultures" may have found spiritual strength and solace within the faith community in which they were raised. Nor do I doubt that there are atheists who grew up in non-theistic households and have never had any motivation to find a faith community. Nor do I doubt that there are folks who grew up in Christian households, parted ways from/with the Christianity in which they were raised as soon as they were able, and found that life "without Jesus" was a relief worth the departure.

But you're still not "getting the point" of my response to Kelly the Phoenix.

• I said to a Baha'i in so many words: You haven't given me a good enough reason to become a Baha'i. I don't need the Baha'u'llah to tell me that all of humanity is one family and earth is our home.
  
• Kelly the Phoenix, a former "Christian", added Jesus to the list of unnecessaries.
  • Kelly of the Phoenix

  • Agreed, but in the same vein, we don't need Jesus to say it either.

• And my response to Kelly was:
  

  I'm not going to deny the importance and relevance of Jesus in my life. I'm sorry that he hasn't been important or relevant in yours. I have never benefited from the Baha'u'llah's or Muhammad's life or words. If anyone else has, so be it, but as for me, I will follow Jesus.

• I wasn't proselytizing or debating, just disagreeing and explaining why.

It's one thing to agree with one of my opinions. It's another thing to add your opinion to mine and assume that I'm going to agree with your opinion just because it kinda looks like mine, when it ain't.