• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Do you have any purely logical objections to Divine Command Theory?

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
That's just an argumentum ad lapidem. How is it nuts?
It should be obvious.

It is a circular argument, and an appeal to supernaturalism without any evidence.

It would also be an appeal to authority, if it even qualified as such, i.e., if its divine authority could be somehow demonstrated.

Then there is the purely theological objection, which are if anything even more devastating. It should be immediately acknowledged that it is severe heresy to presume that our ability to discern moral value is god-given while also proposing that the very same god wants us to waste it.

But really, giving such a matter this much thought... it is more than a bit degrading.
 
It should be obvious.

It is a circular argument, and an appeal to supernaturalism without any evidence.

It would also be an appeal to authority, if it even qualified as such, i.e., if its divine authority could be somehow demonstrated.
You haven't shown why it's circular, and the discussion here isn't about the existence of God. It's simply about the implications and why, taking into account DCT, ethical critiques of religion are meaningless. You're continuing to make the criticism of DCT which I addressed in the OP, ignoring the fact that, apart from revelation, DCT implies that the only rational position is an ethical agnosticism. To refute DCT you need to show how your own humanistic ethics can be objectively proven, which you haven't done.
Moreover, an appeal to authority isn't fallacious if the authority in question is all-knowing and makes no mistakes. You completely miss the point of why it's a fallacy.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Any objections, I've seen, to DCT end up completely missing the point about what God is.
And what, pray tell, is God? Isn't it entirely plausible that God is merely a figment of people's imaginations? Until you can provide compelling evidence that any sort of God is an independent part of reality, and therefore that there is even something there to issue "divine commands", you're dead in the water, and "Divine Command Theory" is rendered inconsequential. If it has an effect on my life, I can't even know that it does, and therefore my life is my life, seemingly with or without it.
 
And what, pray tell, is God? Isn't it entirely plausible that God is merely a figment of people's imaginations? Until you can provide compelling evidence that any sort of God is an independent part of reality, and therefore that there is even something there to issue "divine commands", you're dead in the water, and "Divine Command Theory" is rendered inconsequential. If it has an effect on my life, I can't even know that it does, and therefore my life is my life, seemingly with or without it.
We're speaking about philosophical concepts. You don't have to assent to the idea that these things exist outside of the understanding to offer your two cents. When I say, "What God is," I mean how he is defined in this context, the context of classical theism.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
You haven't shown why it's circular,

@HonestJoe did. Post #11.

and the discussion here isn't about the existence of God. It's simply about the implications and why, taking into account DCT, ethical critiques of religion are meaningless. You're continuing to make the criticism of DCT which I addressed in the OP, ignoring the fact that, apart from revelation, DCT implies that the only rational position is an ethical agnosticism. To refute DCT you need to show how your own humanistic ethics can be objectively proven, which you haven't done.
Moreover, an appeal to authority isn't fallacious if the authority in question is all-knowing and makes no mistakes. You completely miss the point of why it's a fallacy.
Gosh. I refuse to try and pretend that this discussion warrants any further attention. It is just too demeaning. Be well.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
We're speaking about philosophical concepts. You don't have to assent to the idea that these things exist outside of the understanding to offer your two cents. When I say, "What God is," I mean how he is defined in this context, the context of classical theism.
And what is "classical theism?" Are we talking an Abrahamic setup here, within which there is one, true God, and He "loves" us all? Or are we talking an unattached God who merely went about the setup and establishment of the universe without any further planned interaction with its eventual inhabitants? Point being - there are all different kinds of gods, and their divine authority to do whatever it is that they please ends up looking somewhat different dependent on the attributes granted the god by those that believe in Him/Her. For example, the Abrahamic God supposedly loves humanity as one of its base attributes. So, the confines of "whatever He wants to do" are much smaller than a god that isn't purported to care so much. This is, at least, what the adherents of various religions will try and tell you after you point out the idea that what God wants ends up being "arbitrary."

But truly - if any type of god exists and can do as it pleases with impunity, then this is "Divine Command Theory" in practice, and from a human perspective it should be extremely terrifying. Because it means that no matter what the god does, it is "right" from a universal perspective.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Possibly not what you’re asking but suppose DCT is true, we would still have the responsibility of determining what God commanded, and if God’s commandments aren’t aligned to what is independently good, we would have no means of discerning what God commanded from what ancient men imagined God to command, thus all would be lost unless God were to personally reveal God’s will to all of us, which God apparently does not do.
Yeah, I think that's the problem with DCT. If it's true, how do we figure out what it is? Through revelations? Well, that's not working out so well currently. Through logic? Well, then why claim God commanded them if any morals are logical based anyway. So I'm not sure what options there are to figure out what the commands would be unless they were based on human rationality.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
It seems most of the objections people make to Divine Command Theory (DCT) rest completely on its uncomfortable implications. For example, Sam Harris argues that if DCT is true, then if Muslim terrorists have the right god, what they're doing is good, but this is just an appeal to emotion and so obviously doesn't refute what DCT asserts. It doesn't matter how you feel about reality, after all; it's still reality. To actually refute DCT one has to do so on purely logical grounds, and by this, I mean to actually demonstrate logical flaws in the theory itself, not to simply say that it's logical implications are uncomfortable. If you say, "well, if DCT is true, then God's commands are arbitrary," how exactly is that a refutation? Obviously, God is beyond causality and so does not act on reasons or justifications, which would necessitate causality within his essence—that fact is already implied when you're talking about the god of classical theism—but he is obviously not arbitrary in the same way as us. Our being arbitrary is a contrast to our acting upon justification, which we are obliged to do. God, on the other hand, is free from obligation. He does not act arbitrarily in any real sense, that is to say, in the human sense, because if something has no obligation to act upon justifications, or is such that it does not act upon justifications at all, then what does it even mean to be arbitrary? In short, we act arbitrarily out of our human weakness; God acts 'arbitrarily' out of his divine freedom, his divine power, etc. Any objections, I've seen, to DCT end up completely missing the point about what God is. The questions/objections springing from the Euthyphro dilemma work fine, I suppose, when you're talking about the pagan gods of Ancient Greece, but they don't work so well when you're talking about a completely different kind of god.


Interesting question. This is the definition I found for Divine Command Theory.

Roughly, Divine Command Theory is the view that morality is somehow dependent upon God, and that moral obligation consists in obedience to God's commands.

The logical flaw that I find in this claim is that IF morality is somehow dependent upon God THEN it should be impossible for a person who is not familiar with God to behave in a moral fashion. Yet there are plenty of examples of people behaving in a moral manner without any connection to God whatsoever.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is nothing to refute. You have presented no argument, just an unevidenced claim that you're calling a theory.

It's a philosophical theory, not a scientific theory—that's what it's known as in the literature—and this is not a discussion about the existence of God; it's about the philosophical implications of the concept of the god of classical theism.

Since you chose to ignore the comment, it stands uncontested and unrefuted.

You have no theory - just a claim called a theory. There remains nothing to refute. Unsupported claims are merely personal opinions - like saying that your favorite color is blue. OK.

You've also presented no argument to refute as has already been pointed out and ignored.

I'm also not interested in what other people tell me that a god told them to command me do. I just watched several crime shows that demonstrate quite nicely how that can turn out, including ones on David Koresh, Jim Jones, and Warren Jeffs, all of which simply made claims to gullible people that they believed and obeyed to their detriment


Well, the People's Temple mass suicide has nothing to do with DCT.

Every religious tragedy has to do with the belief that there exists a god with commands for humanity that some religious zealot is happy to tell you he is channeling from a divine source. And it is an extremely dangerous point of view - another comment you ignored.

It's pretty much the worse way to accumulate moral values. I prefer 'conscience command theory'. I'll let my conscience be my guide. It's done a good job directing my values and choices to date.

And more crickets from you. Faith can be damaging - even lethal.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
It seems most of the objections people make to Divine Command Theory (DCT) rest completely on its uncomfortable implications. For example, Sam Harris argues that if DCT is true, then if Muslim terrorists have the right god, what they're doing is good, but this is just an appeal to emotion and so obviously doesn't refute what DCT asserts.
So why is the acceptance of a moral imperative from other configurations of god not a similar appeal to emotion?---not that I necessarily believe that of Muslim terrorists is.

To actually refute DCT one has to do so on purely logical grounds, and by this, I mean to actually demonstrate logical flaws in the theory itself, not to simply say that it's logical implications are uncomfortable.

..............(Cesare)
DCT requires the existence of god
there is no proof of the existence of god
___________________________
there is no proof of DCT​

God is beyond causality and so does not act on reasons or justifications, which would necessitate causality within his essence—that fact is already implied when you're talking about the god of classical theism—but he is obviously not arbitrary in the same way as us.
If there is no causality (reason) for god's actions then they must be utterly random in nature. Is this how god works?

Our being arbitrary is a contrast to our acting upon justification, which we are obliged to do.
Where does this obligation arise from? And why do you surmise that morals not dependent on god are arbitrary?

God, on the other hand, is free from obligation.
So god could just as well mislead his creatures for the fun of it by establishing some asinine moral code. Interesting.

we act arbitrarily out of our human weakness;
Like everything else we do, we do what we do because we can do no differently. To think that what we do is something we freely chose to do is living an illusion.

.
 
Last edited:
And what is "classical theism?" Are we talking an Abrahamic setup here, within which there is one, true God, and He "loves" us all? Or are we talking an unattached God who merely went about the setup and establishment of the universe without any further planned interaction with its eventual inhabitants? Point being - there are all different kinds of gods, and their divine authority to do whatever it is that they please ends up looking somewhat different dependent on the attributes granted the god by those that believe in Him/Her. For example, the Abrahamic God supposedly loves humanity as one of its base attributes. So, the confines of "whatever He wants to do" are much smaller than a god that isn't purported to care so much. This is, at least, what the adherents of various religions will try and tell you after you point out the idea that what God wants ends up being "arbitrary."

But truly - if any type of god exists and can do as it pleases with impunity, then this is "Divine Command Theory" in practice, and from a human perspective it should be extremely terrifying. Because it means that no matter what the god does, it is "right" from a universal perspective.
Classical theism - Wikipedia

Yeah, I think that's the problem with DCT. If it's true, how do we figure out what it is? Through revelations? Well, that's not working out so well currently. Through logic? Well, then why claim God commanded them if any morals are logical based anyway. So I'm not sure what options there are to figure out what the commands would be unless they were based on human rationality.

That's an epistemological problem of religion in general rather than a problem with DCT. I'd suggest that one doesn't seek to figure out what the divine commands are. One should seek to figure out what revelation is, if any, and then go from there. That is, one should evaluate religion through an epistemological lens, not an ethical one.

Interesting question. This is the definition I found for Divine Command Theory.

Roughly, Divine Command Theory is the view that morality is somehow dependent upon God, and that moral obligation consists in obedience to God's commands.

The logical flaw that I find in this claim is that IF morality is somehow dependent upon God THEN it should be impossible for a person who is not familiar with God to behave in a moral fashion. Yet there are plenty of examples of people behaving in a moral manner without any connection to God whatsoever.
DCT does not claim that you need god to be moral. The claim is that the ontology of moral facts rests in God. The implication is that one cannot KNOW what is moral without revdlation, which is an epistemological claim.

You have no theory - just a claim called a theory.
It is very much a theory. You just don't understand the difference between a philosophical theory and a scientific one and so expect empirical evidence for an ethical claim, which is ridiculous.

Every religious tragedy has to do with the belief that there exists a god with commands for humanity that some religious zealot is happy to tell you he is channeling from a divine source. And it is an extremely dangerous point of view - another comment you ignored.
I didn't ignore it. I've addressed this in multiple ways before. It doesnt matter if the view is dangerous. The only thing that matters is whether it's true.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Classical theism - Wikipedia



That's an epistemological problem of religion in general rather than a problem with DCT. I'd suggest that one doesn't seek to figure out what the divine commands are. One should seek to figure out what revelation is, if any, and then go from there. That is, one should evaluate religion through an epistemological lens, not an ethical one.


DCT does not claim that you need god to be moral. The claim is that the ontology of moral facts rests in God. The implication is that one cannot KNOW what is moral without revdlation, which is an epistemological claim.


It is very much a theory. You just don't understand the difference between a philosophical theory and a scientific one and so expect empirical evidence for an ethical claim, which is ridiculous.


I didn't ignore it. I've addressed this in multiple ways before. It doesnt matter if the view is dangerous. The only thing that matters is whether it's true.

DCT does not claim that you need god to be moral. The claim is that the ontology of moral facts rests in God. The implication is that one cannot KNOW what is moral without revdlation, which is an epistemological claim.

Sorry, but I still say it's a flaw. Because there are plenty of people who KNOW that it's immoral to kill other people who don't have any connection with God at all. Your claim that one cannot KNOW what is moral without revelation is just plain wrong.
 
DCT does not claim that you need god to be moral. The claim is that the ontology of moral facts rests in God. The implication is that one cannot KNOW what is moral without revdlation, which is an epistemological claim.

Sorry, but I still say it's a flaw. Because there are plenty of people who KNOW that it's immoral to kill other people who don't have any connection with God at all. Your claim that one cannot KNOW what is moral without revelation is just plain wrong.
How do they know?
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
That's an epistemological problem of religion in general rather than a problem with DCT. I'd suggest that one doesn't seek to figure out what the divine commands are. One should seek to figure out what revelation is, if any, and then go from there. That is, one should evaluate religion through an epistemological lens, not an ethical one.
If we can't figure out what divine commands are, then why bother? And how would we ever know if it exist unless we could figure out a way to know what it is? If we shouldn't bother by know what DCT is, then why bother to argue DCT exists? Do gnomes exist? Does it matter? If they're invisible and unknowable, would it change anything if they did exist?
 
If we can't figure out what divine commands are, then why bother? And how would we ever know if it exist unless we could figure out a way to know what it is? If we shouldn't bother by know what DCT is, then why bother to argue DCT exists? Do gnomes exist? Does it matter? If they're invisible and unknowable, would it change anything if they did exist?
If these hypothetical invisible gnomes could influence the world in whatever way they wish, punish or reward us for acting in whichever way, etc., then yes, it would change a lot if they were real.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
If these hypothetical invisible gnomes could influence the world in whatever way they wish, punish or reward us for acting in whichever way, etc., then yes, it would change a lot if they were real.
The same for DCT. If we can't decide what it is and what it codifies, then it has just as little influence, i.e. none, on our daily lives, just like the invisible gnomes.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
It seems most of the objections people make to Divine Command Theory (DCT) rest completely on its uncomfortable implications. For example, Sam Harris argues that if DCT is true, then if Muslim terrorists have the right god, what they're doing is good, but this is just an appeal to emotion and so obviously doesn't refute what DCT asserts. It doesn't matter how you feel about reality, after all; it's still reality. To actually refute DCT one has to do so on purely logical grounds, and by this, I mean to actually demonstrate logical flaws in the theory itself, not to simply say that it's logical implications are uncomfortable. If you say, "well, if DCT is true, then God's commands are arbitrary," how exactly is that a refutation? Obviously, God is beyond causality and so does not act on reasons or justifications, which would necessitate causality within his essence—that fact is already implied when you're talking about the god of classical theism—but he is obviously not arbitrary in the same way as us. Our being arbitrary is a contrast to our acting upon justification, which we are obliged to do. God, on the other hand, is free from obligation. He does not act arbitrarily in any real sense, that is to say, in the human sense, because if something has no obligation to act upon justifications, or is such that it does not act upon justifications at all, then what does it even mean to be arbitrary? In short, we act arbitrarily out of our human weakness; God acts 'arbitrarily' out of his divine freedom, his divine power, etc. Any objections, I've seen, to DCT end up completely missing the point about what God is. The questions/objections springing from the Euthyphro dilemma work fine, I suppose, when you're talking about the pagan gods of Ancient Greece, but they don't work so well when you're talking about a completely different kind of god.

In my opinion, it is not per se possible to refute the DCT. By saying that God's commands would be arbitrary I take it as saying that DCT is unnappealing. Most people don't want to say that raping children could be a perfectly moral action if God chose it be right now.
 

Phaedrus

Active Member
I am going to trust man over god on morality.

"Morality is doing right, no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right." ~ H.L. Mencken
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It seems most of the objections people make to Divine Command Theory (DCT) rest completely on its uncomfortable implications. For example, Sam Harris argues that if DCT is true, then if Muslim terrorists have the right god, what they're doing is good, but this is just an appeal to emotion and so obviously doesn't refute what DCT asserts. It doesn't matter how you feel about reality, after all; it's still reality. To actually refute DCT one has to do so on purely logical grounds, and by this, I mean to actually demonstrate logical flaws in the theory itself, not to simply say that it's logical implications are uncomfortable. If you say, "well, if DCT is true, then God's commands are arbitrary," how exactly is that a refutation? Obviously, God is beyond causality and so does not act on reasons or justifications, which would necessitate causality within his essence—that fact is already implied when you're talking about the god of classical theism—but he is obviously not arbitrary in the same way as us. Our being arbitrary is a contrast to our acting upon justification, which we are obliged to do. God, on the other hand, is free from obligation. He does not act arbitrarily in any real sense, that is to say, in the human sense, because if something has no obligation to act upon justifications, or is such that it does not act upon justifications at all, then what does it even mean to be arbitrary? In short, we act arbitrarily out of our human weakness; God acts 'arbitrarily' out of his divine freedom, his divine power, etc. Any objections, I've seen, to DCT end up completely missing the point about what God is. The questions/objections springing from the Euthyphro dilemma work fine, I suppose, when you're talking about the pagan gods of Ancient Greece, but they don't work so well when you're talking about a completely different kind of god.
My main issue with the divine command theory of morality is that - AFAICT - no real explanation is ever given for how those divine commands could define morality. They always seem to gloss over the most important step.
 
Top