MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
The solution to the problem of evil is that the devil is a worthy advesary and represensents hatred, and the best God could do is fight him.
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One atheist’s idea on how to prevent evil
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
The solution to the problem of evil is that the devil is a worthy advesary and represensents hatred, and the best God could do is fight him.
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
On the other hand, part of God's job is to be passive and allow nature to be.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is true, but some atheists believe that god is omnipotent so god should do everything for humans so humans can be passive.
They got that backwards.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Cool! God is too weak to destroy the devil! If the best god can do is just fight the devil, he's pretty wimpy for a god.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That would be true if there was a devil.
You say that like there is a better way to live than to find happiness. You still haven't offered a reason to make a change in a worldview that supports a satisfying life.
That's admirable, but adding religion to the mix is not only unnecessary, but often impedes the effort. I just read this from a Christian on another thread: "I'd say God knows the point of no return for any culture and those babies you seem to be so concerned about likely had no hope of a life apart from violence and abuse." He was justifying the idea of a global flood that killed most life on earth. He's ready to accept the idea that mankind deserves such punishments. How is that helpful? That's implying that we should just accept our present human condition, and pray for mercy.
Please let me remind you that any conclusion derived from the assumption that a god or gods exist will be unsound to one who does not share that premise. Nothing that derives from an idea like that has any value to a skeptic.
That's admirable, but once again, one doesn't need religion to have or embody high standards - just the will to do and be good. I have high standards for myself, and none come from religion. So please tell what religion has to offer the person happy without it? Why would somebody like me turn to these messengers for advice? I feel qualified to advise them. Give up religion. Learn to accept the possibility that there are no gods, no afterlife, nobody watching over us from above, and that some questions are presently unanswerable. Recognize that hands that pray are idle, holy books are not a source of wisdom, and that only man has ever improved the human condition
So your beliefs cause you to live a less happy life than that life would be without them? Are you not also trying to make your life as good as possible? I'm pretty sure that if I were spending time going to church, reading holy books, praying, and tithing that my life would be worse, not better.
I find that religious belief diminished my life, which as a Christian, was bleak and dismal - so much talk of sin, hell, the need for salvation, the dependency on a god, the need to submit to irrational dicta. These people were distracted from the world by their religious beliefs, telling me how corrupt man and the world are, and to avoid being part of it. I was taught that my flesh was a base and vile trap for a soul yearning to escape it and move on to something better.
As an atheist, I enjoyed the liberation of realizing that when some doe-eyed child dies of leukemia later today somewhere in the world, that it was just bad luck, and not the will of an indifferent god that could have intervened, but chose not to, just as it chooses not to intervene when her sister is being raped in the next room. I don't want to live like that. I've found a healthier worldview simply by casting off the gods and all that negativity and empty promises.
You also don't need religion for that.
What is material happiness? Material objects bring me comfort and opportunity, not happiness. Umbrellas keep me dry in the rain, and air conditioners keep me cool in the heat. I have no material desires except to maintain the status quo of a roof over our heads, enough to eat, a running automobile, and the other items that allow one to pursue happiness. I have these things, and so have no need to pursue additional material items. I really don't know what you mean by pursuing material happiness.
What you call spiritual happiness comes from living an upright life and finding love, beauty, purpose, and satisfaction while avoiding reasons to experience shame and remorse. Once again, religion is not necessary for any of those things, and in my opinion, is often disruptive to an authentic spiritual experience, especially a religion that distracts one from his reality with stories of spirits and calls that a spiritual experience. Scientific knowledge greatly enhances the spiritual experience of one's world. Looking out at the night sky and recognizing what you are experiencing - how connected we are to that star, how far the drop of light has traveled to inform one's eyes of its presence, and the understanding that we are made of stardust, is an authentic spiritual experience.
Once again, this doesn't make sense. One cannot have eternal life in this life, and once again, you are assuming things to be true that an skeptic has insufficient reason to believe.
Why wouldn't they? The religious not only haven't cornered the spiritual experience, I don't think they understand what it is. They seem to think that because they believe in the existence of spirits, that they are experiencing spirituality.
Most theists don't understand what an atheist believes or why. You keep writing things to me that you would know have no meaning without believing what you believe. Why is that? Do you not understand that talking to me about gods as if they are real is the same thing as somebody who believes in vampires warning people to wear garlic at night. If one's target audience doesn't accept the premise that vampires are real, there is no point in proceeding. Somebody who does anyway probably has misconstrued avampirists.
I'm telling you what I believe. How other atheists think is not of much interest to me. Frankly, I don't care much about anybody's beliefs, just what they know and can demonstrate.
Sorry, but that is self-contradictory to me.
They can only do that because the heavenly bodies have no free will. If the moon were granted free will and the power to exercise it, it might choose to confound the astronomers and fail to come into the predicted alignment. Either the moon has free will or it doesn't. We know that it doesn't because it is so predictable.
This is the contradiction in your assertion that man can have free will and that a god knows what it will be. For me, it's one or the other, not both at the same time, and I've never heard anybody arguing otherwise that wasn't trying to reconcile mutually exclusive qualities. It was simply an error on the part of the people inventing such a god. They didn't notice the contradiction, and millennia later, religious people are ignoring the contradiction. The skeptic has no reason to do that.
What does benevolent mean if not minimizing gratuitous suffering? What are we doing when being benevolent apart from trying to increase happiness and reduce suffering? Incidentally, I am not referring to things such as being grounded by parents who are trying to teach good behavior to a child. I'm talking about needless and useless suffering. Benevolent agents always try to minimize that.
I consider faith to be a logical error. I labored assiduously to learn how to think critically and to avoid believing by faith. Now, it's second nature.
That's a self-contradiction. If your beliefs are sufficiently justified by reason applied to evidence, faith is not involved. If one chooses to believe more or less than what is justified, then that is faith, not reason.
That's a path you'll have to travel without me. I'm more interested in holding correct and useful beliefs than certain ones. That sounds like an excellent way to acquire a wrong idea.
I have experienced it, remember? And I left it. And I'm happier now.
You asked earlier if I thought you misconstrue atheists. No atheist believes in gods or expects any god to do anything. What we say is that IF there were such a god, the world would be noticibly different, and that is one of the ways that we know that no such tri-omni god exists or is watching over us.
As always, it's a pleasure trading thoughts with you.
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
Because the anti-Christ is non-violence and invincibility. A worthy advesary who is just a negative force, a true anti-hero. God will needs his real omnipotence just to fight the dharmaic hell.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Woot! That doesn't bode well for god as the legions of Hell will far more numerous. If god needs all his power just to fight the Devil, things aren't looking good for god as Satan will have plenty of strong supporters.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What reason do you have to think that you would have to give up the satisfying life you have now, if you believed in God? You do not seem like someone who is going against the teachings of Baha’u’llah and I cannot think of any laws of Baha’u’llah that would be difficult for you to follow.
What you would get would be additional happiness, the spiritual happiness I described, as well as continued happiness in the spiritual world (afterlife).
It is necessary, because Baha’u’llah drew up a plan for a new world order that will address all the social and political problems that humanity is facing in this age. Without His program, the world situation will only continue to worsen and there would be no hope for the world. Sure, you might have heard Christians say that they have a solution to humanity’s woes, but their solution is contingent upon Jesus returning and doing everything for us and that is a fantasy. Baha’is believe it is our responsibility to build the Kingdom of God on earth, what we also refer to as the new world order, by following the blueprint instructions Baha’u’llah laid out for us. There is no magic to this, it just requires dedication and hard work, humanity working together for the good of the whole.
The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh
Tell me something I don’t know. Of course I know that, so first things first.
I agree that one doesn't need religion to have or embody high standards - just the will to do and be good. However, the salient point is that if God exists and sends Messengers to guide us it would be wise to heed their call. So it all hinges upon the y/n question. Obviously, if God sent a Messenger, He would know more than you, because He has the knowledge of a God who is All-Knowing.
If all you care about is being happy, even if you have the will to do good for others, then religion is probably not for you, even if it is from God, because religion, if practiced as enjoined, requires sacrifice of self. What Jesus said over 2000 years ago was reiterated by Baha’u’llah.
That depends upon how you define happiness. If you mean material happiness, yes, I am less happy since I returned to be a Baha’i in earnest. I spend very little time enjoying myself on recreational activities and entertainment. But to me that is not true happiness, it is transitory and fleeting.
It certainly is not fair to compare the Baha’i Faith to Christianity, as they are very different in principles, teachings, and practice. It is the fallacy of hasty generalization to assume that are the same. The Baha'i Faith has none of these teachings you noted -- no sin, hell, need for salvation, or need to submit to irrational dicta, no talk of how corrupt man and the world are, or to avoid being part of it, no teachings that flesh is a base and vile trap. The only one you noted that we share with Christianity is dependence upon God, but not in the sense Christians believe it, since Baha’is do not believe God is going to “do anything” to fix their lives, that is our job. Far from teaching that we should eschew the world, we are told to go out and live in the world amongst people from all walks of life.
That’s fine, if you do not believe God exists, then you are an atheist. I do not know how one becomes an atheist after believing that God exists, if you believed that, it does not seem like something one can choose.
I also have issues with suffering and evil in the world but I do not blame God and say that God should fix everything just because God is omnipotent. I find this belief rather childlike and it is a way to abdicate human responsibility. But if you want to blame God that’s your choice, and you have plenty of company.
It is absurd to think that God should intervene and prevent a rape. God is not Superman. The solution to evil in the world is for humans to follow the teachings and laws of the Messengers of God, in which case there would be no evil. The solution is not for God to rescue people from their own evil choices and acts.
No, we do not need to believe in God to learn and grow from talking to other people and derive happiness from that.
Well, I meant attachment to material things and deriving our happiness from them. Please do not try to tell me that most people in the Western world, particularly the United States, are not driven by capitalism and the desire for more than they need. If you are not, then you are the exception, so what is it that makes you happy and why do you think that conflicts with having a religion (other than Christianity, because you already explained that)?
I do not think being part of an organized religion is necessary for those things but if God exists, and there is something God wants us to know and do, I want to do that, because it is in my best interest and in the best interest of humanity. The Baha’i Faith teaches the harmony of science and religion and that science is just as important as religion for the progress of humanity.
In order to understand what I meant, I need to explain what eternal life actually is.
“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life.” Some Answered Questions, p. 223
“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225
I do not know how you define spiritual experience or spirituality. Since all humans have a spirit (soul) we can all have spiritual experiences whether we believe in God or not.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Of course I understand it is not real to you but if you are talking to a Christian don’t they talk about what they believe? Of course what I say has no meaning to you because you don’t know what it means, and that is why I explain things I am discussing.
What are so many atheists doing on a religious forum if they don’t want to hear about religious beliefs? That makes no sense to me. If I was a confirmed atheist not seeking God or a religion I would be on an atheist forum. In other words, if you have no interest in learning anything about religion, I see no reason to be on a religious forum. If your purpose is to try to refute religious beliefs or prove God does not exist, that seems like a waste of time and energy to me. If I was an atheist I would be looking to learn what I can about the world and other people, but I would not be talking to religious people if I thought they were deluded.
Okay, and it is good not to lump all atheists together since they are all different, just like all believers are different.
You are certainly not the only one who thinks that. All I can do is explain it as I see it and then I let it go.
I guess you missed my point. My point was that God’s knowledge does not cause things to happen. Humans cause things to happen by exercising their free will. God knows the future because God is omniscient but what God knows will happen is not the cause of anything happening.
Let’s try to keep this simple. Explain why what God knows is the cause of what happens. How does knowledge cause something to happen?
The definition of benevolent is well meaning and kindly. Gratuitous means superfluous, redundant; causeless, unreasonable, groundless, unprovoked, unjustified. Humans who are benevolent try to reduce gratuitous suffering but you cannot expect God to do that because God is not a human. God has willed that humans are supposed to reduce their own suffering and God has provided us with Messengers who teach us how to do that. God is not going to intervene in the world to reduce suffering, as that would upset the entire order of the world as God intended it to operate.
Unfortunately, some faith is necessary to believe in what cannot be proven, whatever it might be. I even have to have faith in a contractor every time I hire one to work on my house, because I have no proof that he will be honest and do a good job. No matter how carefully I screen a tenant, I cannot prove that a tenant will be a good tenant so I have to have faith. Life is full of unknowns and gambles.
In a sense you are right. Now that my beliefs have been justified by applying reason to the evidence, I no longer need faith, because I know God exists.
You would not want to be certain that a God existed in your mind before believing in God? I do not think a belief can be correct or useful unless it is the truth.
That’s fine. You will probably continue as you are because you have no motivation to change since you are happy. I went through a long period, decades, when I was not interested in the Baha’i Faith or God and it was only when I realized I was ready for a change that I decided to come back and give God and the religion a second chance.
Well, that is what you and some atheists say. What other atheists say is that if God exists He is responsible to remove evil and suffering; otherwise God is Himself evil. So what they are saying is that if God exists God is evil because there is evil and suffering in the world. If God does not exist God could not be evil so what they should say is that they do not believe in God and one reason is because the world would have no evil or suffering of God exists.
Likewise.
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
Passive Jesus will dismantle the anti-Christ. Anyways Jesus can burn all of hell without lifting a finger.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
That doesn't follow the statement that "the best god can do is fight [the devil]" or "god will need his real omnipotent power just to fight."
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
The problem with invncibility is it forged out of nothingness and Jesus can be passive to it and make it go away, or the invincibility demon will be moral and not fight wth God and go away either way.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
That's quite a distinct way of argumenting in favour of the 'problem of evil', but alright.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Which is alright as long as one is not hypocritical to say that 'evil is subjective, but good is not.'.
If you mean to say that it is also myopic and self-centered to state that God is good, I have no qualms with what you are saying.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Why not ?
A statement is not an argument. You need to explain why. Otherwise this is known as special pleading, which is a logical fallacy.
Not in the same way I exemplified, sure. But omission is still relevant. A parent that willingly let his child starve to death would be evil. Wouldn't he ?
It also works the other way around: Why should humans do what God can do?
Plus, what about those cases that can't be helped by any human, be it because it is beyond our powers or because we can't reach the person in need of aid ?
Everyone has a justification to do something that we would perceive as evil, and yet, depending on the justification, we don't care. We still see it as evil.
Omnipotence. Being built from the start as stronger. You are still assuming that someone that suffers would eventually be better than someone who was built stronger from start. This is a clearly misguided assumption when you are talking about omnipotence.
Sure, but that doesn't have to be the case. It just happens to be case. Any suffering that doesn't have to be, that doesn't have to exist, is unnecessary and can not be justified in the context of this topic.
Or if God didn't want the material world to exist and just got all of us into the spiritual world from the start. And there is absolutely no excuse for refraining from doing so.
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Koldo
Outstanding Member
A good master won't make his servants suffer unnecessarily. Period.
But why should he do that ?
Explain why he SHOULD do that.
Why shouldn't God remove it ?
I am so afraid.... not.
Have you ever thought that you are also taking your chances ?
If you happen to believe in the wrong god you might also be sent to hell.
How would you determine that a person is innocent, and how would you determine the one killing is God ? What if God told you the person in question was not innocent, how would you determine that God is lying ?
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PureX
Veteran Member
"God" is whatever we want God to be. The truth, however, is 'what is'. Unfortunately, we do not know 'what is' because we cannot experience it directly or holistically, and we can only understand what little we can experience of it to a very limited degree. Which is why we are all stuck with trusting in our best guess, and seeing how well that works out for us. If it "works" we'll generally stay with it. If it doesn't we'll drop it and look for another proposition. This is how, and why, quality tends to become synonymous with truthfulness, for we humans.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Generally we don't just outright drop it though. We tend to adapt it to fit it our needs, which is why people tend to hold all sorts of contradictory views without even noticing it.