If it's completely Ok for a God to allow suffering and evil for a person's growth or perfection then it should be perfectly OK for humans to hurt other humans and cause them to suffer since it leads to their growth or perfection and it's also perfectly OK to watch some act of evil occur or allow someone to suffer, since we're being following God's will and allowing that evil or suffering to make that person better. In fact it would actually be evil for any human to stop another human from committing an act of evil since it would interference with the free will of the one perpetrating the act (which is evil) and also it would interfere with the growth or development of the victim of the act of evil, so I guess no need for police or prisons or anything, people should be free to do whatever they want without consequence since interfering with people's free will is evil, freedom for all and no one has any moral obligation to stop any evil or suffering, since it would be a bad thing.
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One atheist’s idea on how to prevent evil
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
We Never Know
No Slack
??. I already covered this. Did you miss it?
Unity of Mankind
Member
False! At birth we don’t have what you would call any will accept survival! However, given the hypothetical choice I think the unborn would choose to stay in its mother’s womb because there all its material needs are met. Of course it is ignorant that the purpose of it being in its mother’s womb in the first place is to acquire physical attributes in order to function in the material world after birth.
So, in like manner, our life in this material world is likened by Baha’u’llah to being in a spiritual womb in order to acquire spiritual attributes analogous to limbs and organs in order to function in an afterlife without the physicality of a material body. Nevertheless, in the afterlife the rational soul does take on a form best befitting its celestial station according to Baha’u’llah.
Since the afterlife is as different from this material existence as is the life of the fetus before physical birth, it is impossible for us to comprehend in concrete terms what the quality of the afterlife would be like accept in a very rudimentary glimpse of it through its description from Messengers or Prophets of God, such as Jesus or Baha’u’llah.
The analogy of the afterlife however can be analyzed by referencing this physical existence in the sense that spiritual eyes enable one to see in a dimension that is radically different than a material milieu. That is why in the Ministry of Jesus Christ as recorded in the New Testament Jesus said such words as “Let those who have eyes see” or “who have ears hear.” He was not referring to physical eyes and ears but rather spiritual eyes and ears.
Along the same vein Jesus also advised a Disciple who felt duty bound to attend his father’s funeral rather than hitting the dusty trail to proclaim the Cause of God the following words: “Let the dead bury their dead.” By this Jesus conveyed the principle that relatively speaking if you don’t have spiritual life you are truly dead. Jesus also likened the acquiring of spiritual qualities to storing up treasure in heaven wherein thieves could not break in and steal it.
Lastly, the manner of acquiring of spiritual qualities in our physical lives is different in manner than a fetus acquiring what it needs to develop physically in order to function after birth. A fetus need not make any conscious decisions in the womb as it acquires limbs and organs whereas in physical life acquiring spiritual attributes does require conscious decisions such as to love rather than hate, or to live according to the Laws of God as vital in comparison to only observing rules imposed by physical rulers or governments.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
We are fast reaching the point in Western societies where antisemitism is losing its shock appeal.
Last year antisemitic attacks rose 84% in Australia.
Without any religious moorings each generation will decide what is good and what is bad. That in
itself I find evil.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I did not say everyone suffers for that reason or that everyone benefits from suffering.
No, not everyone is allowed to develop in this world, but miscarried or aborted babies or kids who die young are recompensed in the afterlife and they will continue to grow spiritually in the spiritual world.
THE IMMORTALITY OF CHILDREN
Question.—What is the condition of children who die before attaining the age of discretion or before the appointed time of birth?
Answer.—These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them. Some Answered Questions, p. 240
Right but they wouldn't suffer as they develop in the afterlife right?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am not painting anyone any way. Only God knows which nonbelievers are capable of believing or not, but if they do not even give the Messengers of God a fair shot then they cannot be said to have tried.
What I get tired of are atheists blaming God for everything. It certainly is not God who is to blame or the Messengers, as to why people do not recognize them, why does anyone have to be to blame? Some people recognize the Messengers, others don't.
The reason for the contradictions between religions is because of what the leaders and followers have done to change the original messages of the Messengers as revealed by God. The original messages were different in some ways , but they were not contradictory. But I can understand how it would appear that way to people, unless they really made an attempt to understand why there are apparent contradictions.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Curious George
Veteran Member
Begging the question is when you assume as the conclusion in order to argue or prove the conclusion that you have already assumed. It is circular reasoning.
You said:
"we do what god know we will do because god knows what we will do.God's knowledge of what we will do does not determine what we will do, God just knows what we will do."
This amounts to:
We determine things
God knows what we will do
Therefore, god knows what we will choose.
Determining things is something we do, so the 2nd statement, which you have assumed, encompasses the conclusion.
The last statement is a non sequitur: It does not follow from your previous statements.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Perhaps the way I stated it seems circular. It is a difficult concept to explain.
Humans make choices.
God knows what those choices will be before we make them because God is All-Knowing.
What God knows we will choose does not determine what we choose. We determine that.
PureX
Veteran Member
Which is based on what we deem good for us, and bad (evil) for us. And because existence does not share in our myopic, self-centered assessment of "evil", we blame God.
Road Less Traveled
Active Member
It’s pretty simple, and no need to make it a complexity. You think a good god would create disease, the potential for disease, and to disease people. I know that a good god would have never done such.
Do you think that this god needs soldiers defending it and making excuses for it at all costs? Is it hyper-sensitive? There are a lot of things an indoctrinated mind cannot know. Nor would an indoctrinated mind be able to think of any alternatives, or question.
Right, my learning would then need to come at the expense of diseased people. This god you’re trying to turn others to would be then both the author and the cure for disease. Maligned. And then you are not allowed to question this because of fear?
All someone would have to do is tap into their higher noble nature to know if this were also given to them, no texts or messengers required.
Why not? This lower selfish nature and choice would come from the same god according to you. Why wouldn’t it be proud of its children just exercising what this god also gave them? You presented the equivalence earlier in this thread about someone being free to choose and be themselves from 2 natures that this god gave them, and then choosing to turn into and become an all good robot.
Road Less Traveled
Active Member
So God is evil because God allows humans to make bad choices and thereby learn from them.
Oh,and God is also evil because He made the multilevel classroom in which people can learn.
All this is tantamount to saying is that:
We couldn’t learn what murder is if this god never created murder or murderers.
We couldn’t learn what rape is if this god never created rape or rapists.
We couldn’t learn what disease is if this god never created disease or diseased.
We couldn’t learn what evil is if this god never created evil and evil people.
We couldn’t learn what war is if this god never created war and war mongers.
And on and on and on.
All at the expense of the severely inflicted so people can learn. No thanks.
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Road Less Traveled
Active Member
Then suffering is not required for perfection, and the best case scenario for anyone would be never having been born into this storehouse of suffering.
It seems that you're saying that in the long run, then, God isn't interested in preserving free will.
... so why are you assuming that he's interested in preserving it on Earth?
I got busy with life. I won't be on as frequently as I have been, but I'll probably pop in from time to time.BTW, you have been missed. I thought of you often and wondered what happened to you. Glad you are back from wherever you went.
Road Less Traveled
Active Member
If there were a good god, that would be sensible that an element of it were trapped in prison with and inside most of us and it experiencing the same conditions and suffering.
From what you’ve told me though and what we’ve discussed on another thread, it seems as if you went to visit literal prisoners you would just blame them for how they are, condemn them for their freewill choices, and wish revenge and justice on them to be served. No mercy. I get that because at one point I did too.
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Road Less Traveled
Active Member
I was never the lower selfish nature because I never asked for such in the first place. If it were a ‘false self’ then it also was never ‘me’ in the first place. It was something else that I did not choose.
Nobody needs messengers or prophets or texts to discover what is written inside of themselves, or be of a sound/wholesome character or nature.
A lot of people are doing just fine without ever hearing of Baha’u’llah or in need of any outward religion, or texts. Anyone currently not fine also does not need any of those in order to rehabilitate.
Why did this same god give a human a divided nature...a lower selfish nature and a higher noble nature? Is this god divided against itself?
Well, as I said, we have natural defenses against other things. For instance, a natural rejection against eating disgusting stuff.
That does not entail I am a robot. He could have done exactly the same. Why not?
I heard God is incapable of sinning. Is He a robot?
Ciao
- viole
Road Less Traveled
Active Member
Then nobody chose to exist here, or chose for a lower selfish nature or chose to have any choice between the two natures. Or chose pretty much almost everything about themselves to the point that one could not even call themselves, themselves. As in what you referred to being ‘dead.’ Being an entire different product as to what something else determined for one. A marionette, puppet, zombie thinking it’s making choices but is not. Parroting what they’ve been trained and indoctrinated to parrot. Soldiers for the will of something else. And as you also mentioned, the dead will not have eyes to perceive or ears to hear.
When someone fully awakens to this, they become alive. Everything once seemed normal and ordinary, until it’s not.