One atheist’s idea on how to prevent evil

[sayak83]

I have an atheist poster on my forum who says it is god’s fault there is evil because god, if he exists, makes evil choices available to humans.

Atheist: Any being who would make evil choices available would be an evil being. Therefore, if god exists, god is to blame for evil, not humans.

He says that god could arrange it so only good choices are available for people to make and that would prevent evil.

So I asked him to explain precisely how God could make only good choices available to humans and I asked him to explain HOW this would play out in the real world we live in. Below is his answer:

Atheist: Try having a real omnipotent god who could see to that.

As you can see he could not answer HOW a real omnipotent God could make only good choices available to humans.
I have asked him three or four times and still no answer.

How could an omnipotent God make only good choices available to humans? Any ideas?

That is easy. As soon as one hurts another, the first person experience of that hurt and pain is also directly experienced by the person who is doing the hurting.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is easy. As soon as one hurts another, the first person experience of that hurt and pain is also directly experienced by the person who is doing the hurting.

So how could God make that happen?
Please do not tell me "because God is omnipotent God can do anything." Sure, God could take over people's minds but that would be the same as taking away their free will to think as they otherwise would. If God was to do that why not go all out and just prevent them from doing any evil?

But let's say God made that happen. What guarantee is there that the person who experienced the hurt would change and make only good choices after that?

 

[night912]

I do not understand how God could make only good choices available to humans,because as long as humans have free will they can make either good choices or evil choices.
God allows free will which allows people to make evil choices so in that sense God allows evil.

To say that God could arrange it so only good choices would be available "because God is omnipotent" is not an answer to my question. The way the world has been created with what is in it, there is the availability to make either good choices or evil choices. The only way I can see that God could make only good choices available would be to recreate the world in some way where it would only be possible to make good choices. I cannot even imagine what kind of a world that would be.

Answer my this question and you will find out how.

What flavor of ice cream do you like better, chocolate or vanilla?

 

[Trailblazer]

Answer my this question and you will find out how.

What flavor of ice cream do you like better, chocolate or vanilla?

I really do not like either one, I prefer coffee ice cream.
But between chocolate and vanilla, I guess I like chocolate better.

 

[sayak83]

So how could God make that happen?
Please do not tell me "because God is omnipotent God can do anything." Sure, God could take over people's minds but that would be the same as taking away their free will to think as they otherwise would. If God was to do that why not go all out and just prevent them from doing any evil?

But let's say God made that happen. What guarantee is there that the person who experienced the hurt would change and make only good choices after that?

Some sort of telepathic field that directly transmits sensation and emotional experiences from one brain to the other. That's how.
If shot someone and directly felt the debilitating pain of being shot at the same intensity level as the victim, I doubt you would shoot anyone...and all wars and murders would stop.

 

[Trailblazer]

Some sort of telepathic field that directly transmits sensation and emotional experiences from one brain to the other. That's how.
If shot someone and directly felt the debilitating pain of being shot at the same intensity level as the victim, I doubt you would shoot anyone...and all wars and murders would stop.

That would probably work.
Oh, that people could just have empathy, and then none of this would be necessary.
Why is that such a tall order?

 

[sayak83]

That would probably work.
Oh, that people could just have empathy, and then none of this would be necessary.
Why is that such a tall order?

It's not the same is it? Even with empathy, the experience of pain and joy of others is but a pale shadow of what we experience for ourselves when it happens to us. So the natural inclination is to weigh our own experiences more than that of others. If a dictator feels first hand all the pain he imposes on ordinary people, he will be so wracked with pain that he would never do any injustice ever again.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not the same is it? Even with empathy, the experience of pain and joy of others is but a pale shadow of what we experience for ourselves when it happens to us. So the natural inclination is to weigh our own experiences more than that of others. If a dictator feels first hand all the pain he imposes on ordinary people, he will be so wracked with pain that he would never do any injustice ever again.

Yes, that’s true. Our natural inclination is to weigh our own experiences more than that of others, but we can try to override that inclination if we are self-aware. No, we can never fully understand how another person feels just by having empathy, but we can try. To fully understand, something supernatural would have to intervene and make that happen, some intervention by a God.

 

[night912]

I really do not like either one, I prefer coffee ice cream.
But between chocolate and vanilla, I guess I like chocolate better.

And that's how it would work. Chocolate = good. Vanilla = good. Coffee = evil.

Without having an option for evil, ultimately you made a "good" choice but didn't pick evil because it wasn't an option. But you still had the free will to choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

And that's how it would work. Chocolate = good. Vanilla = good. Coffee = evil.

Without having an option for evil, ultimately you made a "good" choice but didn't pick evil because it wasn't an option. But you still had the free will to choose.

So, is this your solution to evil, not to have it available?
Ice cream is just ice cream, but the real world is more complicated. How do you think that would work in the real world?

 

[night912]

So, is this your solution to evil, not to have it available?
Ice cream is just ice cream, but the real world is more complicated. How do you think that would work in the real world?

That's the solution to your problem of "no evil while still having free will." That hypothetical world works exactly as being suggested. So, if god snaps his fingers, or whatever an all powerful god does, and remove evil from the world, the result is a world with free will and no evil. That answers the op question.

I'm not talking about the real world because I don't believe that a god exist , therefore I don't believe it's possible for something like that, nor something as easy, to happened.

BTW,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that result is what your religion believe. Don't your religion teach of having that end result(I'm not talking about the part where god removes evil from the world)? Whether it's the afterlife or not, but to have the "end" goal of "no evil" while still having free will?

 

[Trailblazer]

That's the solution to your problem of "no evil while still having free will." That hypothetical world works exactly as being suggested. So, if god snaps his fingers, or whatever an all powerful god does, and remove evil from the world, the result is a world with free will and no evil. That answers the op question.

I'm not talking about the real world because I don't believe that a god exist , therefore I don't believe it's possible for something like that, nor something as easy, to happened.

It certainly is hypothetical. The idea is that God is omnipotent so God can do anything but that is a fantasy that God can make only good choices available in a material world.

I do not think it is possible in the real world because what exists in the world can be misused for evil purposes. Take sex and money for example. They can be used for good or evil and they can cause people to do evil to other people. As long as people have free will and they are selfish they will abuse what is in the world and do evil. The only way to prevent evil is to change the character of man. That is the primary purpose of religion. If everyone followed the teachings and laws of religion there would be no evil in the world.

BTW,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that result is what your religion believe. Don't your religion teach of having that end result(I'm not talking about the part where god removes evil from the world)? Whether it's the afterlife or not, but to have the "end" goal of "no evil" while still having free will?

Yes, that is the goal of my religion, the end result we hope will be achieved someday. It is the fundamental purpose of every religion, but the older religions have lost sight of that purpose over time.

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215

 

[night912]

It certainly is hypothetical. The idea is that God is omnipotent so God can do anything but that is a fantasy that God can make only good choices available in a material world.

I do not think it is possible in the real world because what exists in the world can be misused for evil purposes. Take sex and money for example. They can be used for good or evil and they can cause people to do evil to other people. As long as people have free will and they are selfish they will abuse what is in the world and do evil. The only way to prevent evil is to change the character of man. That is the primary purpose of religion. If everyone followed the teachings and laws of religion there would be no evil in the world.

No, in reality, it's actually the opposite of what you just said. Following the laws of religion is one of the reasons as to why evil still exist.

Yes, that is the goal of my religion, the end result we hope will be achieved someday. It is the fundamental purpose of every religion, but the older religions have lost sight of that purpose over time.

That's why evil still exist, because of religious doctrine and teachings. It's arguable to say that it's the fundamental purpose of all religions. And even if it was, the teachings itself is flawed, resulting in evil acts.

What you said in bold is very important. And it's the biggest if not the worst problem of your religion. It's based on a self contradiction and not taking responsibility, instead it's shifting the blame. It's contradicting because it believes that a religion is correct and good until it's later seen as being wrong, then blame it on being past "old" culture. Murder was wrong back then, and it's still wrong today. Slavery was wrong back then, and it's still wrong today. Believing that it's correct and wrong is a contradiction. And blaming on being a wrong interpretation is also wrong. So why is it that a teaching that is supposed to be correct and good leave so much room for misinterpretation?

 

[Trailblazer]

No, in reality, it's actually the opposite of what you just said. Following the laws of religion is one of the reasons as to why evil still exist.

What laws are those, the laws of ancient religions such as Judaism? Those laws do not apply to present day society. They have been superseded by laws from a newer religion. Following those laws would eliminate evil from the world.

That's why evil still exist, because of religious doctrine and teachings. It's arguable to say that it's the fundamental purpose of all religions. And even if it was, the teachings itself is flawed, resulting in evil acts.

What are those religious doctrines and teachings that allow evil to still exist?
What teachings of religion are flawed that result in evil acts?

What you said in bold is very important. And it's the biggest if not the worst problem of your religion. It's based on a self contradiction and not taking responsibility, instead it's shifting the blame. It's contradicting because it believes that a religion is correct and good until it's later seen as being wrong, then blame it on being past "old" culture. Murder was wrong back then, and it's still wrong today. Slavery was wrong back then, and it's still wrong today. Believing that it's correct and wrong is a contradiction. And blaming on being a wrong interpretation is also wrong. So why is it that a teaching that is supposed to be correct and good leave so much room for misinterpretation?

The blame is squarely on humans because humans have free will and humans changed the older scriptures and misinterpreted them. Maybe slavery had a purpose 4000 years ago, but now we judge it as wrong because we are living in a completely different world, a new age. The problem is that people cling to older religions that were not revealed for the present day and they try to apply their religions to the present day. That just won’t work. Religion, like science, has to evolve over time in order to be useful to humanity.

Certain religious laws such as the Ten Commandments will always be applicable to everyone, other than keeping the Sabbath Day, which does not apply to everyone, only Jews. However, the specifics of religious laws need to be updated in every age in order to keep pace with the times.

 

[night912]

What laws are those, the laws of ancient religions such as Judaism? Those laws do not apply to present day society. They have been superseded by laws from a newer religion. Following those laws would eliminate evil from the world.

What are those religious doctrines and teachings that allow evil to still exist?
What teachings of religion are flawed that result in evil acts?

The blame is squarely on humans because humans have free will and humans changed the older scriptures and misinterpreted them. Maybe slavery had a purpose 4000 years ago, but now we judge it as wrong because we are living in a completely different world, a new age. The problem is that people cling to older religions that were not revealed for the present day and they try to apply their religions to the present day. That just won’t work. Religion, like science, has to evolve over time in order to be useful to humanity.

Certain religious laws such as the Ten Commandments will always be applicable to everyone, other than keeping the Sabbath Day, which does not apply to everyone, only Jews. However, the specifics of religious laws need to be updated in every age in order to keep pace with the times.

I see. It's back to the cherry picking and contradiction reasoning. Since now it's coming down to saying whatever just to defend your religion, even if it's unreasonable and/or illogical, there's no point in continuing this discussion. Once you start justifying slavery to defend religion, eventhough you yourself believe that it's evil, there's nothing more to discuss. Hope you can come to see the irrationality of how religion can make a person do that reevaluate your way.

BTW, science doesn't change to suit humanity, unlike religion, which you clearly stated.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see. It's back to the cherry picking and contradiction reasoning. Since now it's coming down to saying whatever just to defend your religion, even if it's unreasonable and/or illogical, there's no point in continuing this discussion. Once you start justifying slavery to defend religion, even though you yourself believe that it's evil, there's nothing more to discuss. Hope you can come to see the irrationality of how religion can make a person do that reevaluate your way.

It is not my religion that allowed slavery. I have no idea why it was allowed 4000 years ago, but it was Moses who freed the slaves, so it was religion that put an end to slavery.

I do not know what was in the older scriptures, but humans wrote those laws and scriptures to suit their needs, not God. I do not justify what humans did with the religions of God. Give humans anything and they will mess it up.

BTW, science doesn't change to suit humanity, unlike religion, which you clearly stated.

I said: "Religion, like science, has to evolve over time in order to be useful to humanity." I did not say that science changes, I said it evolves, which means it does not just stand still. New scientific discoveries are made as time moves on. Science has to evolve in order to be useful.

 

[1213]

...
How could an omnipotent God make only good choices available to humans? Any ideas?

At the moment I don’t know. But I am sure, if we would only know good, atheists would want to eat the fruit to get the knowledge of evil also. And if they would not be allowed to have that, they would again complain. There simply is no satisfactory way for those who hate God.

In Biblical point of view, it is people who wanted to know evil. And I think God was good when He allowed us to have this lesson. Those who choose well, can have life after this first death.

People should not worry about this reality, because in Biblical point of view this is like Matrix, where we can experience things, while our soul is in safe. And soul is the important thing, body is only like building for soul and can be replaced.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28-