One atheist’s idea on how to prevent evil

[Shad]

If you don't know, maybe you should watch that movie entitled The Ten Commandments.

I am asking you based on your religion. You reject the Torah but fail to provide any view about Moses outside tiny statements. So far all you provide was he lived, was a manifestation of God and did something.

So the death of all first born males in Egypt happened as per the movie. What does that say about your God? Was the killing of innocents necessary? After all that movie depicts the Torah's view. So are you endorsing the Torah as accurate now?

Heston is awesome.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am asking you based on your religion. You reject the Torah but fail to provide any view about Moses outside tiny statements. So far all you provide was he lived, was a manifestation of God and did something.

So the death of all first born males in Egypt happened as per the movie. What does that say about your God? Was the killing of innocents necessary? After all that movie depicts the Torah's view. So are you endorsing the Torah as accurate now?

Heston is awesome.

I was being facetious when I said to watch the movie. A movie is just a movie.

I cannot say I know that what was recorded in the Torah, including death of all first born males in Egypt, actually happened. As far as I know, there is no official Baha'i position on this.

 

[Shad]

I was being facetious when I said to watch the movie. A movie is just a movie.

I cannot say I know that what was recorded in the Torah, including death of all first born males in Egypt, actually happened. As far as I know, there is no official Baha'i position on this.

So what did Moses do beside be a name dropped by your leader?

 

[Trailblazer]

So what did Moses do beside be a name dropped by your leader?

Baha’u’llah wrote about Moses. You can find references to Moses by doing a search by ‘Moses’ in The Kitáb-i-Íqán.

Abdu’l-Baha also wrote about Moses.

According to Abdu’l-Baha, Moses freed a great nation from the chains of captivity, made them contented, brought them out from Egypt, and led them to the Holy Land. Below is the full chapter about Moses.

Story of Moses

Moses was for a long time a shepherd in the wilderness. Regarded outwardly, He was a Man brought up in a tyrannical household, and was known among men as One Who had committed a murder and become a shepherd. By the government and the people of Pharaoh He was much hated and detested.

It was such a Man as this that freed a great nation from the chains of captivity, made them contented, brought them out from Egypt, and led them to the Holy Land.

This people from the depths of degradation were lifted up to the height of glory. They were captive; they became free. They were the most ignorant of peoples; they became the most wise. As the result of the institutions that Moses gave them, they attained a position which entitled them to honor among all nations, and their fame spread to all lands, to such a degree indeed that among surrounding nations if one wished to praise a man one said, “Surely he is an Israelite.” Moses established laws and ordinances; these gave life to the people of Israel, and led them to the highest possible degree of civilization at that period.

To such a development did they attain that the philosophers of Greece would come and acquire knowledge from the learned men of Israel. Such an one was Socrates, who visited Syria, and took from the children of Israel the teachings of the Unity of God and of the immortality of the soul. After his return to Greece, he promulgated these teachings. Later the people of Greece rose in opposition to him, accused him of impiety, arraigned him before the Areopagus, and condemned him to death by poison.

Now, how could a Man Who was a stammerer, Who had been brought up in the house of Pharaoh, Who was known among men as a murderer, Who through fear had for a long time remained in concealment, and Who had become a shepherd, establish so great a Cause, when the wisest philosophers on earth have not displayed one thousandth part of this influence? This is indeed a prodigy.

A Man Who had a stammering tongue, Who could not even converse correctly, succeeded in sustaining this great Cause! If He had not been assisted by divine power, He would never have been able to carry out this great work. These facts are undeniable. Materialist philosophers, Greek thinkers, the great men of Rome became famous in the world, each one of them having specialized in one branch of learning only. Thus Galen and Hippocrates became celebrated in medicine, Aristotle in logic and reasoning, and Plato in ethics and theology. How is it that a shepherd could acquire all of this knowledge? It is beyond doubt that He must have been assisted by an omnipotent power.

Consider also what trials and difficulties arise for people. To prevent an act of cruelty, Moses struck down an Egyptian and afterward became known among men as a murderer, more notably because the man He had killed was of the ruling nation. Then He fled, and it was after that that He was raised to the rank of a Prophet!

In spite of His evil repute, how wonderfully He was guided by a supernatural power in establishing His great institutions and laws! Abdu’l-Baha – Some Answered Questions, p. 14-15

 

[Shad]

Baha’u’llah wrote about Moses. You can find references to Moses by doing a search by ‘Moses’ in The Kitáb-i-Íqán.

352 search results...

Abdu’l-Baha also wrote about Moses.

According to Abdu’l-Baha, Moses freed a great nation from the chains of captivity, made them contented, brought them out from Egypt, and led them to the Holy Land. Below is the full chapter about Moses.

Story of Moses

Moses was for a long time a shepherd in the wilderness. Regarded outwardly, He was a Man brought up in a tyrannical household, and was known among men as One Who had committed a murder and become a shepherd. By the government and the people of Pharaoh He was much hated and detested.

It was such a Man as this that freed a great nation from the chains of captivity, made them contented, brought them out from Egypt, and led them to the Holy Land.

This people from the depths of degradation were lifted up to the height of glory. They were captive; they became free. They were the most ignorant of peoples; they became the most wise. As the result of the institutions that Moses gave them, they attained a position which entitled them to honor among all nations, and their fame spread to all lands, to such a degree indeed that among surrounding nations if one wished to praise a man one said, “Surely he is an Israelite.” Moses established laws and ordinances; these gave life to the people of Israel, and led them to the highest possible degree of civilization at that period.

To such a development did they attain that the philosophers of Greece would come and acquire knowledge from the learned men of Israel. Such an one was Socrates, who visited Syria, and took from the children of Israel the teachings of the Unity of God and of the immortality of the soul. After his return to Greece, he promulgated these teachings. Later the people of Greece rose in opposition to him, accused him of impiety, arraigned him before the Areopagus, and condemned him to death by poison.

Now, how could a Man Who was a stammerer, Who had been brought up in the house of Pharaoh, Who was known among men as a murderer, Who through fear had for a long time remained in concealment, and Who had become a shepherd, establish so great a Cause, when the wisest philosophers on earth have not displayed one thousandth part of this influence? This is indeed a prodigy.

A Man Who had a stammering tongue, Who could not even converse correctly, succeeded in sustaining this great Cause! If He had not been assisted by divine power, He would never have been able to carry out this great work. These facts are undeniable. Materialist philosophers, Greek thinkers, the great men of Rome became famous in the world, each one of them having specialized in one branch of learning only. Thus Galen and Hippocrates became celebrated in medicine, Aristotle in logic and reasoning, and Plato in ethics and theology. How is it that a shepherd could acquire all of this knowledge? It is beyond doubt that He must have been assisted by an omnipotent power.

Consider also what trials and difficulties arise for people. To prevent an act of cruelty, Moses struck down an Egyptian and afterward became known among men as a murderer, more notably because the man He had killed was of the ruling nation. Then He fled, and it was after that that He was raised to the rank of a Prophet!

In spite of His evil repute, how wonderfully He was guided by a supernatural power in establishing His great institutions and laws! Abdu’l-Baha – Some Answered Questions, p. 14-15

Who did he free? What did he free them from? How did he accomplish it?


(I read this days ago)

 

[Trailblazer]

Who did he free? What did he free them from? How did he accomplish it?

That is explained in Some Answered Questions, pp. 14-15

 

[columbus]

Do you mean because he does not believe in God?

I think he does believe in god, the imaginary god he dreamed up, the god he made in his own image, the god that should hop to and do whatever he wants, that god.

Your ability to mind read is getting a little tiresome.
You think an atheist believes in God.

Well, I'm here to tell you that you're flat out wrong.
I'm not a hard atheist anymore, but I used to be. I remember finding the ability of religionists to tell me what I believed, and refusing to believe that I knew better and was being honest, as better evidence that they didn't know what they were talking about than there is for any of their prophets or messengers or any of those human authorities they are so attached to.

You are wrong about humans. I know this for a fact. What possible reason would I have to think you're right about God?
Tom

 

[Trailblazer]

Your ability to mind read is getting a little tiresome.
You think an atheist believes in God.

I did not say he believes in a real God.
I said: I think he does believe in god, the imaginary god he dreamed up, the god he made in his own image, the god that should hop to and do whatever he wants, that god.

In other words, if god did exist god should do what he thinks god should do, provide proof if His existence and get rid of all the evil and suffering in the world. I did not make that up. It is plastered all over my forum.

You are wrong about humans. I know this for a fact. What possible reason would I have to think you're right about God?
Tom

I do not pretend to know anything about humans other than what they tell me. I also have an opinion based upon what people say, especially if they say it over and over and over again.

I think I am right about God based upon my religion. That does not mean that other people have to believe what I do, but I have a right to believe it because I am a separate person.

 

[Shad]

That is explained in Some Answered Questions, pp. 14-15

It does not say anything of much. Moses did something. Nothing about how at all. Just did.. stuff.

 

[Trailblazer]

It does not say anything of much. Moses did something. Nothing about how at all. Just did.. stuff.

If you want to know what Moses did, it is best to talk to Jewish people.
If you want to know what Baha'u'llah did, then you talk to the Baha'is.

 

[Shad]

If you want to know what Moses did, it is best to talk to Jewish people.

Who will probably tell me to read the OT which you rejected as true. That rejection is why I questioned you. Now you have gone full circle. Deny, dodge, dodge, provide no details then go right back to what you first denied should be the source I am to use. Hilarious. You just validated my point about needing to bandwagon. After all I told you that the Torah was part of your scripture. Now you prove it after denying it for days.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who will probably tell me to read the OT which you rejected as true. That rejection is why I questioned you. Now you have gone full circle. Deny, dodge, dodge, provide no details then go right back to what you first denied should be the source I am to use. Hilarious. You just validated my point about needing to bandwagon. After all I told you that the Torah was part of your scripture. Now you prove it after denying it for days.

I never said that the Torah was part of my scripture.
I do not need to bandwagon on ancient scriptures because I have the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

All I ever said is that I do not believe that all the stories in the OT literally happened as recorded. I am not going to provide any details because I am not familiar with the Torah and I do not talk about details I do not know.

Here are some official Baha'i positions on the Torah and the Bible. Do with them whatever you will.

From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
(23 January 1944 to an individual believer)

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

Except for what has been explained by Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean.
(31 January 1955 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[Shad]

I never said that the Torah was part of my scripture.

Doesn't matter if you need to reference it to explain who Moses was and what he did in your religion.

I do not need to bandwagon on ancient scriptures because I have the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

Yes you as per your own reference.

All I ever said

is that I do not believe that all the stories in the OT literally happened as recorded. I am not going to provide any details because I am not familiar with the Torah and I do not talk about details I do not know.

The question was about your religion. You had no answers so you reference that which you denied. Try again.

From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
(23 January 1944 to an individual believer)

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

Except for what has been explained by Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean.
(31 January 1955 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

Vague statements which provides no detail regarding the "true Torah" or "true NT". Again this is just bandwagon on previous religion borrowing a known figure, deny the nasty bits, provides no replacements to the views denied then proclaim it is from the same God.That is called name dropping and bandwagoning

What did Moses do? Who was Pharaoh? What did Pharaoh do? How did the Hebrews get to Canaan? How was Israel established?

You sole argument is that your leader babbled about Moses. That is it. No details, nothing. Just an argument from authority.

 

[Trailblazer]

What did Moses do? Who was Pharaoh? What did Pharaoh do? How did the Hebrews get to Canaan? How was Israel established?

I do not care about any of that because it is ancient history.
If you want to know any of that, look it up yourself. You have a computer.

I am not going to try again. Live and learn.
I am done playing your straw man games. I have no obligation to prove anything to you.
You have free will so you are free to believe anything you want to about me or my religion.
It cannot hurt me because I have God as my Greatest Protection.

 

[Shad]

I do not care about any of that because it is ancient history.
If you want to know any of that, look it up yourself. You have a computer.

I asked you as a member of the religion that I expect to know more than I do.

I am not going to try again. Live and learn.

You tried what exactly?

I am done playing your straw man games. I have no obligation to prove anything to you.

Prove the fallacy.

You have no sources for Moses that provide any details.

You have free will so you are free to believe anything you want to about me or my religion.

Already do

It cannot hurt me because I have God as my Greatest Protection.

Ask him for a book about Moses while you are at it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I asked you as a member of the religion that I expect to know more than I do.

Judaism is not my religion.
I suggest you ask a member of that religion. They would know.

 

[Shad]

Judaism is not my religion.
I suggest you ask a member of that religion. They would know.

I was talking about your religion. For being a member of a religion that uses Moses you seem to not know much about him nor does your religion. Hence why you default back to the Torah when pressed. Your religion provides next to nothing. It cherry picks and moves on. Nothing more. Your references shows the reliance on the Torah for any details on Mose.

 

[Trailblazer]

I was talking about your religion. For being a member of a religion that uses Moses .....

We do not use Moses. We use Baha'u'llah.

Your references shows the reliance on the Torah for any details on Moses.

The Torah is where you get details on Moses.

 

[Milton Platt]

I have an atheist poster on my forum who says it is god’s fault there is evil because god, if he exists, makes evil choices available to humans.

Atheist: Any being who would make evil choices available would be an evil being. Therefore, if god exists, god is to blame for evil, not humans.

He says that god could arrange it so only good choices are available for people to make and that would prevent evil.

So I asked him to explain precisely how God could make only good choices available to humans and I asked him to explain HOW this would play out in the real world we live in. Below is his answer:

Atheist: Try having a real omnipotent god who could see to that.

As you can see he could not answer HOW a real omnipotent God could make only good choices available to humans.
I have asked him three or four times and still no answer.

How could an omnipotent God make only good choices available to humans? Any ideas?

An omnipotent god would have the power to do so. Therefore he could do it if he wished. If he could do so, but didn't wish to, then he made a conscious decision to allow evil. Not hard to understand.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: How could an omnipotent God make only good choices available to humans? Any ideas?

An omnipotent god would have the power to do so. Therefore he could do it if he wished. If he could do so, but didn't wish to, then he made a conscious decision to allow evil. Not hard to understand.

I do not understand how God could make only good choices available to humans,because as long as humans have free will they can make either good choices or evil choices.
God allows free will which allows people to make evil choices so in that sense God allows evil.

To say that God could arrange it so only good choices would be available "because God is omnipotent" is not an answer to my question. The way the world has been created with what is in it, there is the availability to make either good choices or evil choices. The only way I can see that God could make only good choices available would be to recreate the world in some way where it would only be possible to make good choices. I cannot even imagine what kind of a world that would be.