Love For All, Hatred For None

Deeje · Jun 27, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Now where have we heard that before. I bet you with my life, that all God's Messengers have heard those accusations.

The fact that God's messengers were sent only to the Jews, I believe, has some significance. Nothing contained in God's word comes from outside of God's chosen nation, just as he said. God dealt only with the Jews.

The other thing Christ did, was tell us how to know a true prophet. Thus before we jump on the false bandwagon, the most popular ride in religious history, maybe we should be of the few, that with Justice, will test the Messenger as per what Christ Offered.

Again, this only applied to the Jewish nation to whom God sent his messengers exclusively. Jesus was Jewish. All of God's prophets were Jewish....all of God's instructions were for Jews. The scriptures were written by them alone.

Even when the Jewish leaders orchestrated the murdered their Messiah (because they had been convinced that he was a fake) the new nation chosen was also called "Israel". The Apostle Paul called these followers of Jesus Christ..."the Israel of God" which were made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. (Galatians 6:16) "Peace and mercy" were to be extended to these ones.

It is worth considering many of the false views will be coming from thise that use Christs name;

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

YES!!! And that is the point.....if Jesus will reject those who claim him as their "Lord" inside the Christian faith, then what of those outside of the Christian faith who claim him as their "Lord"? You cannot have another "Lord" without selling out to false worship.

Christ talks about His New Name, a new name that needs to be accepted to know Christ is also the Father.

I don't think for one moment that his name was Baha'u'llah.
His new name is not revealed. So that is just an assumption that suits Baha'i assertions.

Big topic, happy to leave it there.

It is indeed a big topic Tony and I have to admire your commitment to your faith....but I honestly see no scriptural basis for it. The Baha'i misapplication of scripture might seem to reinforce your beliefs but taken in context, none of them mean what you have been led to believe. Genuine knowledge of the Bible would never allow belief in any prophet outside of God's original arrangement through his chosen nation.

That is how I see it.

TransmutingSoul · Jun 27, 2019

Deeje said:
The fact that God's messengers were sent only to the Jews, I believe, has some significance. Nothing contained in God's word comes from outside of God's chosen nation, just as he said. God dealt only with the Jews.

The Jews do not even beleive that, this is a good read.

Jews as the chosen people - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

Deeje · Jun 27, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The Jews do not even beleive that, this is a good read.

Jews as the chosen people - Wikipedia

Again, we need some context to the statements in your link.

We have to rely on scripture as coming from God, not the interpretation of said scripture by men who were corrupt. The Jews didn't suddenly become acceptable to God after the death of Christ. They continued on as Jesus said....never acknowledging him as 'the one who came in Jehovah's name'. (Matthew 23:37-39)

All of God's prophets recorded their messages and their treatment by the Jewish leaders, which became part of the Hebrew canon. There is nothing in those scriptures to suggest that any prophet was from outside of God's people.
Such was their national pride, that Jews would never have listened to anyone who was not Jewish.

The Mishna supplements the written, or scriptural, laws found in the Pentateuch. It presents various interpretations of selective legal traditions that had been preserved orally since at least the time of Ezra (c. 450 bc). (Britannica.com) But these were not given final form until the 3-4th century CE. So oral tradition (which Jesus roundly condemned in his day) was responsible for the bulk of Jewish beliefs...none of which were sound even in his day.

Malachi was the last prophet sent to that nation which was some 400 tears earlier. The more time you give Israel to distort God's worship, the worse their behavior became. You will note that both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ did not have a good thing to say about them. (Matthew 3:7-10; Matthew 23:13-38) Your sources are therefore unreliable IMO.

What God promised to Abraham is significant however....
After demonstrating his unshakable faith by a willingness to offer up his only son....

Genesis 22:15-18...
"And Jehovah’s angel called to Abraham a second time from the heavens, 16 saying: “‘By myself I swear,’ declares Jehovah, ‘that because you have done this and you have not withheld your son, your only one, 17 I will surely bless you and I will surely multiply your offspring like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand on the seashore and your offspring will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”

The blessing of all nations was to come "by means of" Abraham's descendants.....this was Abraham's reward for his faith...not because Israel would somehow turn out to be perfect....we know from the scriptures that they were anything but. That did not did not alter God's purpose to produce the Messiah through that nation. But once his covenant was fulfilled, God abandoned that wayward nation and chose a new one. (Acts of the Apostles 15:14; Matthew 23:37-39)
This is the "Israel of God" that Paul spoke about...not fleshly Israel but 'spiritual' Israel. (Galatians 6:16) One had to be part of God's nation and abide by his laws in order to be acceptable to him.

As Paul said in Romans 9:6-8...
"However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring."

Those who followed Christ would come from all the nations, but still had to be disciples of Jesus Christ. Israel had first dibs on becoming part of the Kingdom arrangement that would ultimately rule mankind. (the new covenant) It was part of God's promise for them to become "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation". God never goes back on his word....but his nation did, consistently.

Why is the Bible a 'warts and all' account of Israel's conduct from its willing acceptance of God's covenant at Mt Sinai, (Exodus 19:7-8) its frequent excursions into false worship, meriting God's often severe punishments....its extraordinary blessings in times of repentance....all the way through to their rejection of his Messiah? (Matthew 27:24-25)

What do you think?

TransmutingSoul · Jun 27, 2019

Deeje said:
What do you think?

I think we could do this all day.

Personally the Prophecy to me points to Baha'u'llah.

The fact that Baha'u'llah was banished to Israel, is to me beyond a coincidence.

That Proohecy says Mt Carmel will see the 'Glory of God' and shall blossom in abundance, is way to fulfilling. That the Law was to go out from Zion and would be that of Peace, is way to compelling.

You know that when the poo poo hits the fan, we can still work together to help each other. No one will float away in bodily form. Quite a few of us may be vaporised.

Regards Tony

Deeje · Jun 27, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I think we could do this all day.

Probably...

Personally the Prophecy to me points to Baha'u'llah.

Then you are basically saying that the Bible points to a prophet that is from outside of the Jewish nation, (with whom God dealt with exclusively, up until Christ came?) and that he had a message for all humanity that is not in alignment with anything the Bible says about the role of the messiah and the manner of his return. How on earth can it point to Baha'u'llah? He was never even a disciple of Christ. He never introduced the blessings of the Kingdom nor did he come with his mighty angels to judge the world and fix everything that is wrong.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10...
"But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you."

Baha'u'llah claimed to BE Christ and yet we see nothing about him that would suggest that he was anything but a mere mortal making grandiose claims that he could never fulfill. Certainly nothing like what is contained in God's word.

The fact that Baha'u'llah was banished to Israel, is to me beyond a coincidence.

What is the land of Israel to God now? Its a piece of dirt that people of different faiths are squabbling over. It is a place of unrest and violence.

The "Promised Land" of Israel was pictorial of the whole earth in the future under God's kingdom, which he promised to those who would obey him in everything. The Bible is full of accounts of those who obeyed God and what happened to them because they did....and there are many accounts of those who disobeyed, and what happened to them because they didn't do what God told them. The whole book is a history of outcomes.....examples from which we learn what it means to obey our Creator. The truth is not found outside of its pages.

Step back and see what God wanted for humankind when he first created them.....the whole earth was to be transformed by them until it resembled the garden of Eden. To "fill the earth and subdue it" was his plan all along. He never abandoned it. (Isaiah 55:11) God's kingdom with Christ at the helm is what will bring us back to God's original purpose for this earth and humans upon it.

That Proohecy says Mt Carmel will see the 'Glory of God' and shall blossom in abundance, is way to fulfilling. That the Law was to go out from Zion and would be that of Peace, is way to compelling.

Not really compelling if you know that mountains in the Bible are often used symbolically.

The prophecy of Isaiah 2:2, 3 and that of Micah 4:1, 2 pointed to the time when “the mountain of the house of Jehovah” would “become firmly established above the top of the mountains” and be “lifted up above the hills,” with people of many nations streaming to it. The fact that “the mountain of the house of Jehovah” was to be above mountains and hills would point to the exalted position of true worship, for mountains and hills in ancient times served as sites for idolatrous worship and for sanctuaries of false gods. (Deuteronomy 12:2; Jeremiah 3:6; Ezekiel 18:6, 11, 15; Hosea 4:13)

You know that when the poo poo hits the fan, we can still.work together to help each other. No one will float away in bodily form. Quite a few of us may be vaporised.

That is true to an extent, but those who are 'sheep' cannot help the 'goats' if they do not want to be helped. We who are on Jehovah's side of the issue of his Universal Sovereignty will be placed at Jesus' right hand come the judgment....those who reject God's sovereignty in favor of exercising their own free will, apparently have no come-back when Jesus calls them "workers of lawlessness" and consigns them to the stated punishment.....everlasting death. We are all judged before that final action takes place.....either confirming our place in God's Kingdom...or eliminating ourselves from qualifying for it.

Everlasting life was never unconditional.....

TransmutingSoul · Jun 27, 2019

Deeje said:
Probably...

Then you are basically saying that the Bible points to a prophet that is from outside of the Jewish nation, (with whom God dealt with exclusively, up until Christ came?) and that he had a message for all humanity that is not in alignment with anything the Bible says about the role of the messiah and the manner of his return. How on earth can it point to Baha'u'llah? He was never even a disciple of Christ. He never introduced the blessings of the Kingdom nor did he come with his mighty angels to judge the world and fix everything that is wrong.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10...
"But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you."

Baha'u'llah claimed to BE Christ and yet we see nothing about him that would suggest that he was anything but a mere mortal making grandiose claims that he could never fulfill. Certainly nothing like what is contained in God's word.

What is the land of Israel to God now? Its a piece of dirt that people of different faiths are squabbling over. It is a place of unrest and violence.

The "Promised Land" of Israel was pictorial of the whole earth in the future under God's kingdom, which he promised to those who would obey him in everything. The Bible is full of accounts of those who obeyed God and what happened to them because they did....and there are many accounts of those who disobeyed, and what happened to them because they didn't do what God told them. The whole book is a history of outcomes.....examples from which we learn what it means to obey our Creator. The truth is not found outside of its pages.

Step back and see what God wanted for humankind when he first created them.....the whole earth was to be transformed by them until it resembled the garden of Eden. To "fill the earth and subdue it" was his plan all along. He never abandoned it. (Isaiah 55:11) God's kingdom with Christ at the helm is what will bring us back to God's original purpose for this earth and humans upon it.

Not really compelling if you know that mountains in the Bible often used symbolically.

The prophecy of Isaiah 2:2, 3 and that of Micah 4:1, 2 pointed to the time when “the mountain of the house of Jehovah” would “become firmly established above the top of the mountains” and be “lifted up above the hills,” with people of many nations streaming to it. The fact that “the mountain of the house of Jehovah” was to be above mountains and hills would point to the exalted position of true worship, for mountains and hills in ancient times served as sites for idolatrous worship and for sanctuaries of false gods. (Deuteronomy 12:2; Jeremiah 3:6; Ezekiel 18:6, 11, 15; Hosea 4:13)

That is true to an extent, but those who are 'sheep' cannot help the 'goats' if they do not want to be helped. We who are on Jehovah's side of the issue of his Universal Sovereignty will be placed at Jesus' right hand come the judgment....those who reject God's sovereignty in favor of exercising their own free will, apparently have no come-back when Jesus calls them "workers of lawlessness" and consigns them to the stated punishment.....everlasting death. We are all judged before that final action takes place.....either confirming our place in God's Kingdom...or eliminating ourselves from qualifying for it.

Everlasting life was never unconditional.....

I walk away, have a great day Deeje.

The questions you asked me in that post are for you to answer for yourself. If you aready have those answers, then what I can offer will not help.

Regards Tony

Deeje · Jun 27, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I walk away, have a great day Deeje.

Sorry, it wasn't meant to be a contest.

The questions you asked me in that post are for you to answer for yourself. If you aready have those answers, then what I can offer will not help.

We all have to answer those questions Tony....and if we don't answer them correctly, the Bible says we will pay for our ignorance....disqualifying ourselves from the life that we all really want. The god you worship is not the God I worship, but it appears as if you can't tell the difference. I am truly sad about that because what God is offering is exactly what you want too....everlasting life in paradise with fellow humans who love God and want to obey him, all working towards making this earth a fit place to honor and praise its Maker. I know that you have a good heart but we also need the truth.

Trailblazer · Jun 27, 2019

Deeje said:
Perhaps we should count how many scriptures you ignore to uphold the claims of your prophet.....?

THIS has nothing to do with Baha’u’llah and He said nothing about it. It is just logic 101 stuff. God is Spirit so God cannot have “biological” offspring.

Deeje said:
God created Adam as his first biological son. (Luke 3:38) He created Jesus as his second biological son. A life transferred from heaven to the egg cell of a Jewish virgin....born to be the savior of mankind by paying the debt that Adam left for his children.....sin and death. A perfect sinless life needed to be offered in exchange for the perfect sinless life that Adam took from all of us. Jesus had to come from outside the the now imperfect sinful human race to pay the "ransom".

There is nothing physical in heaven, as heaven is a purely spiritual world. Logically speaking, that means there cannot be an egg cell in heaven.

Regarding the meaning of “Son” as it refers to Jesus:

Although the Bahá'í writings say nothing about the title 'Son of God (or 'only begotten Son of God, [John 3:16]) there is much that can be said about it from a Bahá'í perspective. 'Son of God is an extremely important title of Jesus for Christians, so much so that in the minds of many Christians 'Son of God' defines the relationship of Jesus with His Father. But often Christians do not think about the symbolic meaning of the title; indeed, many seem unaware that the title is symbolic at all.

What does the term 'Son' mean? Normally, the word has a simple biological meaning, but that meaning is the very one that cannot apply to the relationship between God and Jesus, for God does not have genetic material to confer upon Jesus, nor does God have a body with which He could unite with Mary to produce a son. Christian theology never meant the term to be understood literally; as the above quote from Gregory of Nazianzus emphasizes, God begot Christ 'without passion, of course, and without reference to time, and not in a corporeal manner' ('The Third Theological Oration – On the Son' 161). The Qur'án echoes Gregory's recognition of God's transcendence when it says, 'Allah is only one God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son' (Qur'án 5:171).

Consequently, the word 'Son' must be understood in a metaphorical or symbolic sense; the same is true of the verb 'begotten' when applied to Jesus. One possible meaning of Son, rejected early by the mainstream of Christian theology, was the 'adoptionist' interpretation; that Jesus was an ordinary man, 'adopted' by God as His Son. The Bahá'í writings would also seem to reject this approach, since they do not see Manifestations of God as ordinary human beings; rather, the Bahá'í writings indicate that the souls of the Manifestations are pre-existent, in contrast to ordinary human beings, whose souls come into existence at the moment of conception. Manifestations are indeed unique creations of God, as the phrase 'only begotten' attempts to convey; it describes Jesus's mode of creation through an analogy with the physical world, an analogy that Gregory of Nazianzus, by qualifying the word in the above passage, admits has its limitations.

Another symbolic interpretation of the term 'Son' would be to argue that Jesus was the 'spiritual' Son of God. Various interpreters have taken this approach. One could say that all humans, including Jesus, are 'sons' of God, in other words, that all were created by God. This is true, but it undercuts the uniqueness of the title's application to Christ, probably unnecessarily, and undercuts the distinction that Bahá'í would make between Jesus Christ and creation.

Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

Deeje said:
And your source has what credentials to give you better scriptural advice about that, than mine?

And what credentials to give you the ability to offer better scriptural advice about that, than the person who wrote that article?

It is funny why Christians do not even understand why there are so many sects of Christianity. It is because Christians cannot agree as to what the Bible verses MEAN. Bible verses can be interpreted to mean whatever you want them to mean. As an atheist (Nimos) I am conversing with on another thread said a couple of days ago regarding the Bible: “And also that people by the millions are trying to make it fit into their own beliefs, which is why no one can agree what it actually means.”

Deeje said:
Who said Paul's writing are not as valid as any other apostle's contribution to scripture? If the Bible is God's word, then what is in that book is there because God wants it to be there.....whois to say otherwise? You can't pick and choose which bits of the Bible to believe and which bits to dismiss without knowing accurately that those writings are false. No one can prove that Paul was not exactly who he said he was. Conjecture is not proof.

I can pick and choose whatever I want to. I believe that Paul was a false teacher because he changed the true Christianity of Jesus, as it says on this thread I started last fall: How Paul changed the course of Christianity

From that thread:

That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

The most essential and effective alteration of Jesus’s message carried out by Paul was in denying the Law’s power of salvation and replacing the idea of the Covenant, (235) the objective principle of the Jewish religion, with faith in Christ and the atoning power of his sacrificial death; the concrete mosaic law with a mystical doctrine of salvation. Here the Cause of God was robbed of its proper centre and transformed into a mixture of Judaism, Christianity and paganism. The original community recognized the devastating effect of the ‘Apostle to the Gentiles’ and did not watch it passively. The Jerusalem community sent teachers (‘false brethren’, Paul called them) to the new communities founded by Paul; they taught the true doctrine to the believers only just won for the Faith and opposed the doctrine taught by Paul. (236) Paul was such a controversial figure that Tertullian, in his pamphlet attacking Marcion, called him ‘Apostle to the Heretics’, and the Pseudo-Clementine Homilies declared him a false teacher, even indeed the anti-Christ.

This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy, the preservers of the original branded as ‘Ebionites.’

(The Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ by Udo Schaefer)

(Continued on next post)

Trailblazer · Jun 28, 2019

Deeje said:
Again you fail to understand the meaning of the Hebrew word "soul". It denotes a "breather". You can't have a soul without breath. You cant have breath without a body and lungs. A "soul" is a physical being....not an invisible spirit.

Well, you are just flat out wrong simply on the basis of logic. If the soul is eternal, it has to be able to exist without a physical body (that which has breath). Just because the soul gives breath that does not mean that when there is no longer breath the soul dies. That is just an assumption you make.

Deeje said:
Trailblazer said: so why do you think Jesus said the following?
Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Deeje said: Soul" is synonymous with life. So Jesus was saying that if you want to save your life by disobeying God, you will lose it.

Losing your soul is associated with losing eternal life, not with losing physical life. Jesus did not consider the physical life of the body to be important at all.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Deeje said:
Why do you think Jesus said...
"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna." (Matthew 10:28)

The soul that does not have eternal life is destroyed in the sense that, although it still exists, its existence like nonexistence compared to those who have eternal life:

When the physical body dies it remains dead and the soul ascends to the spiritual world. Everyone has a soul and all souls will continue to exist forever in the spiritual world, where they will take on a new form, a spiritual body which best befits their celestial habitation. However, not all souls will attain to eternal life, because eternal life is the state of the soul who is near to God.

“These explanations show that man is immortal and lives eternally. For those who believe in God, who have love of God, and faith, life is excellent—that is, it is eternal; but to those souls who are veiled from God, although they have life, it is dark, and in comparison with the life of believers it is nonexistence.” Some Answered Questions, p. 242-243

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 242

So those souls who are veiled from God will exist in hell whereas those souls who are near to God will attain to a heavenly existence.

Deeje said:
God can kill souls, which means that they are not immortal. (Ezekiel 18:4) They do not exist apart from the body. Adam was not given a soul, but became one when God started him breathing.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Those souls that sin will be DEAD because they will not have eternal life, since they will be separated from God by their sin. They will continue to exist in the spiritual world, but they will be in a state of hell, rather than heaven.

Deeje said:
It is Christendom who adopted the false religious notion of an immortal soul that can exist apart from the body.

No, they were all correct and you are incorrect, at least on this belief.

Deeje said:
It is life itself that is eternal if we obey God. That is what we lose...eternal life. Instead we will experience the opposite....eternal death.

That is correct, but it will be eternal life of the soul, not eternal life of the physical body.

All that nonsense about the body rising from the grave came into Christianity because of Paul. Physical bodies never rise from graves and come back to life.

All these verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not eternal life of the physical body.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Deeje said:
That is NOT what the Bible teaches.

Jesus revealed new things that were not in the OT. The eternal soul is mentioned in the NT if you interpret the verses correctly, but the NT did not go into this kind of detail about the soul that Baha’u’llah did, because people in those days were not ready to hear it. But now humanity is more evolved spiritually so we are able to grasp these concepts. They were always true, but they were not revealed in great detail as they were part of the many things that were withheld.

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Trailblazer · Jun 28, 2019

Deeje said:
John 14, 15 and 16 are about the holy spirit, nothing to do with Baha’u’llah.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

John 14:26 clearly identifies the holy spirit as the helper....so its not Baha’u’llah.

I already discussed this verse with a Trinitarian Christian for months on end and he still could not grasp the concept that the Father sent the Holy Spirit to Baha’u’llah just as the Father had sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus. So here is one of the dialogues with that Christian that I saved:

There is no twisting of the verse; there is simply interpretation of the verse. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit that Jesus and Baha’u’llah brought after it was SENT to them by God.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit has to be associated with a Personin order to do its work. It does not just float around in the sky. The Holy Spirit was sent by God to Baha’u’llah and Baha’u’llah brought it to humanity. It was the power of the Holy Spirit that enabled Baha’u’llah to DO what it says in John 14:26.

You say that the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of believers and teach all things and call them to remembrance so why can’t it be working through Jesus and Baha’u’llah? You cannot have this both ways. Either the Holy Spirit can work through people or not.

Sorry, but you just don’t like the FACT that Baha’u’llah was given the title of Comforter, but if the Comforter was a title given to Jesus then it can also be given to Baha’u’llah – another Comforter.

Why not just put your cards on the table. This is all about the Return of Christ. In the context of the following verses, Jesus is the Comforter and Jesus is saying that He will send another Comforter, which was Baha’u’llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Deeje said:
Then you make a liar out of Jesus who clearly identified the holy spirit as the one that would "teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

As I said above, the Holy Spirit has to work through a Person, it does nothing disembodied.

Deeje said:
Baha'i's seem so bent on making Baha’u’llah into something he is not, that you have to ignore so much scripture to make it so.....but he never was part of the divine plan.

I do not have to ignore any scripture. I just INTERPRET it differently than you do. The day you and other Christians finally realize that will be a great day indeed because it is logic 101. Simply put, the fact that Christians have many different interpretations of scripture means there is more than one interpretation. The Baha’i interpretation is different from the Christian interpretations but that does not mean it is incorrect.

Deeje said:
Trailblazer said:The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which is the Comforter/Spirit of truth because it comforts people and brings them the truth. God sent the Holy Spirit (Bounty of God) to Baha’u’llah and then Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Spirit (Bounty of God) to humanity. That is why Baha’u’llah has been referred to as the Comforter/Spirit of truth.

Deeje said:Only to Baha'i's. He doesn't mean that to anyone else.

Why would it matter what it means to other people? There is no consensus among Christians as to what it means, so that means it can mean more than one thing.

Deeje said:
Again you think that the holy spirit is "living inside Christians" because....? The holy spirit is God's active force. It empowers humans and angels to carry out the divine will. It emanates from God and results in doing what Jesus said it would do, affecting his followers in various ways.

I do not think that the Holy Spirit is living inside Christians, Christians believe that. They call it the “indwelt” Holy Spirit.But the Holy Spirit cannot dwell within a man. Rather, as you said, the Holy Spirit is God’s active force, and that is really no different from what I said, that it is the Bounty of God.The Bounty of God is released and it becomes active in the world when it is sent to a Manifestation of God such as Jesus or Baha’u’llah and they shed the splendor of their glory upon all created things. When the Holy Spirit is released into the world it empowers humansto carry out the divine will.

Deeje said:
At Pentecost, it empowered Jesus' disciples to speak in foreign languages so that they could preach the gospel to those visitors in Jerusalem who came for the festival, in their mother tongue.

You just confirmed what I have been saying all along. The Holy Spirit was sent to the disciples at Pentecost and it empowered them to preach the gospel. Likewise the Holy Spirit was sent to Bahaullahand it empowered Him to do what it says the Comforter/Spirit of truth would do.

Deeje said:
That is one of the greatest misapplications of scripture that I have ever seen.

You can't fit Islamic prophets into Jewish or Christian scripture without a lot of tap dancing. That is worthy of Broadway!

Believe as you wish. You, just like all Christians, believe you and you alone have the correct interpretation of scripture, but that is logically impossible, because you cannot all have the correct interpretation, since interpretations differ. But your solution to that is to say that YOU and your sect of Christianity has the one and only correct interpretation and all the other Christians are wrong. The salient problem with THAT is that you have nothing to base that upon but your own ego. After all, the other Christians are reading the same verses and you are no more qualified to interpret the verses than anyone else. Why do you think you know more than the Trinitarian who has a Master’s degree in theology about what the verses mean?

Deeje said:
Jesus fulfilled all the prophesies about him in the OT....what he didn't fit was the Pharisees misinterpretation of those prophesies. He wasn't what they expected, but he was what they got.

You are dead wrong that Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies and I could easily prove it by pointing out the many prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill. But you are correct that Jesus fulfilled many prophecies that the Jews did not acknowledge owing to their lack of understanding. Baha’u’llah wrote about that:

“And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the Day Spring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him. They clamored that He Whose advent the Bible had foretold must needs promulgate and fulfil the laws of Moses, whereas this youthful Nazarene, who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the laws of divorce and of the sabbath day—the most weighty of all the laws of Moses. Moreover, what of the signs of the Manifestation yet to come? These people of Israel are even unto the present day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold! How many Manifestations of Holiness, how many Revealers of the light everlasting, have appeared since the time of Moses, and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God. And they still await His coming! From time immemorial even unto this day, all the kindreds and peoples of the earth have clung to such fanciful and unseemly thoughts, and thus have deprived themselves of the clear waters streaming from the springs of purity and holiness...” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 20-21

Deeje said:
It is apparent to me that no one could ever accept Bahá’u’lláh as a prophet of God unless they had no idea what the Bible teaches. The more I speak to those of your faith, the more I see complete ignorance of scripture. The cherry picking just makes me shake my head.

That is EXACTLY what my Trinitarian Christian friend said to me for years on end.

The salient problem with your statement is that most Baha’is in the Western world were formerly Christians, so they knew the Bible as well as any Christian.So why is YOUR Bible interpretation better than the Baha’i interpretation and the Trinitarian interpretation? That is the 100 dollar question you need to ask yourself. I think the answer is that you have settled upon one interpretation that supports your beliefs, what you WANT to believe, so you are unwilling to look at any other interpretations that differ. I do hope you at least understand that there is MORE than ONE WAY to interpret the Bible.If you do not understand that ten you are acting upon emotion and not logic.

Deeje said:
As with Tony, I do not doubt your sincerity for a moment, but IMO, you have simply been led to believe so many things that are just not scripturally true according to my studies.

I can say the exact same thing to you, that you are sincere, but according to the Baha’i Writings you have been led to believe many things that are not true. And according to your studies, the other Christians are wrong in their interpretation of scripture, so why are you right and they are wrong? After all, I am sure other Christians have also studied the Bible extensively. Do you at least understand the logical problem?

Deeje said:
Incidentally, you never answered me.....why does Bahá’u’lláh have such an elaborate tomb, when Jesus does not have one at all?

I see that Tony answered that sufficiently.

Do you have a point to make about the tomb of Baha’u’llah?

Milton Platt · Jun 28, 2019

dybmh said:
"Love for All Hatred for None is a universal motto of peace, justice, equality, love, understanding, and mutual reconciliation. The motto was coined by the third spiritual leader of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, Hazrat Mirza Nasir Ahmad (ra).
Hazrath Mirza Nasir Ahmad (ra) coined this motto on occasion of the inauguration of the first mosque in Spain in the last 700 years on October 9, 1980. Elaborating on this motto he said, “Islam teaches us to live with mutual love and affection and with humility.”
Islam means Peace and in-order to uphold principles of peace, one needs mutual love and affection. How can one ensure mutual love is continuously spread, clearly with humility? I believe humility aspect is the key reason why ‘Hatred for None’ is present in the motto. If one is humble, one acknowledges that they have many shortcomings and learns to overlook shortcomings of others which help foster an atmosphere of hatred for none."

A History and Description of the Ahmadiyya Motto: Love for All, Hatred for None

How does that square with the bloody history of Islam?

Hockeycowboy · Jun 28, 2019

Milton Platt said:
How does that square with the bloody history of Islam?

And. I might add (unfortunately), mainstream Christianity!

Deeje · Jun 28, 2019

Trailblazer said:
THIS has nothing to do with Baha’u’llah and He said nothing about it. It is just logic 101 stuff. God is Spirit so God cannot have “biological” offspring.

LOL....God is the Creator of biological sons. What do you think Adam was?

Does God then lack the ability to manipulate his own biology to produce his second biological son.....Jesus, who became the Christ? Seriously? God does have biological children....what do you think we are?

Trailblazer said:
There is nothing physical in heaven, as heaven is a purely spiritual world. Logically speaking, that means there cannot be an egg cell in heaven.

Mary wasn't in heaven. She and her egg cells were entirely earth bound.

God used one of them to transfer the life force of his spirit son in heaven, so that he would be born of an earthly woman and die a mortal death to redeem mankind. That was the whole idea. Are you saying that this impossible for the Creator of life?

Trailblazer said:
Regarding the meaning of “Son” as it refers to Jesus:

Although the Bahá'í writings say nothing about the title 'Son of God (or 'only begotten Son of God, [John 3:16]) there is much that can be said about it from a Bahá'í perspective. 'Son of God is an extremely important title of Jesus for Christians, so much so that in the minds of many Christians 'Son of God' defines the relationship of Jesus with His Father. But often Christians do not think about the symbolic meaning of the title; indeed, many seem unaware that the title is symbolic at all.

What does the term 'Son' mean? Normally, the word has a simple biological meaning, but that meaning is the very one that cannot apply to the relationship between God and Jesus, for God does not have genetic material to confer upon Jesus, nor does God have a body with which He could unite with Mary to produce a son. Christian theology never meant the term to be understood literally

It is Jesus himself who says he is God's son. He is the one who says that God is his Father and "Our Father". Remember? This is entirely about relationships and using a human relationship to describe the bond between God and his firstborn is entirely appropriate IMO. Since God is the Creator of his son, that makes God his Father.

Trailblazer said:
It is funny why Christians do not even understand why there are so many sects of Christianity. It is because Christians cannot agree as to what the Bible verses MEAN. Bible verses can be interpreted to mean whatever you want them to mean. As an atheist (Nimos) I am conversing with on another thread said a couple of days ago regarding the Bible: “And also that people by the millions are trying to make it fit into their own beliefs, which is why no one can agree what it actually means.”

I understand completely why Christendom is not real Christianity....its why we are no part of Christendom and her widely held and disputed doctrines, most of which came from Roman Catholicism, not the Bible. We went back to the beginning and rediscovered original Christianity. There were some amazing discoveries. We got a divorce!

Deeje · Jun 28, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Well, you are just flat out wrong simply on the basis of logic. If the soul is eternal, it has to be able to exist without a physical body (that which has breath). Just because the soul gives breath that does not mean that when there is no longer breath the soul dies. That is just an assumption you make.

Um...you need lungs to breathe. The base meaning of the word "soul" in Hebrew is a "breather". Animals are also called "souls" in Genesis. God created man as superior to the animals. He alone was given God's qualities and attributes....but it was Solomon who commented on the fact that animals and humans breathe the same air, have the same spirit and yet all die the same death....where was the human superiority over animals then, he wondered? (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Read the creation account in Genesis and tell me where God mentions death except as a punishment? Why is death referred to an an enemy? Why has God promised to eliminate death among mankind? (Revelation 21:3-4)
If death takes us to a better place then why do we grieve?

Trailblazer said:
Losing your soul is associated with losing eternal life, not with losing physical life. Jesus did not consider the physical life of the body to be important at all.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Again read the creation account and see that there was a means to preserve human life eternally in the garden. Humans had free access to this "tree of life" until they chose their course of disobedience.
Genesis 3:22-24...
"Then the Lord God said, “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life."

Living forever on earth in mortal flesh was God's first purpose. We were never supposed to die...which is why we cling to erroneous doctrines that suggest that we don't really die at all....we just go on living in some invisible realm. God told Adam that he would simply die and return to the dust from which he was made. There is no mention of an afterlife of any kind.
When humans disobeyed they lost access to the one thing that guaranteed that their physical, mortal life would not end.

Trailblazer said:
When the physical body dies it remains dead and the soul ascends to the spiritual world. Everyone has a soul and all souls will continue to exist forever in the spiritual world, where they will take on a new form, a spiritual body which best befits their celestial habitation. However, not all souls will attain to eternal life, because eternal life is the state of the soul who is near to God.

This is not what the Bible teaches. Why would God create mortal physical beings if he was just going to take them somewhere else after a rough life here on earth? The angels already existed in heaven long before the universe was created.....millions of them.....and they did not have to start their life as humans on earth. Earth was designed to be our permanent home, where we could enjoy everlasting life...whilst taking care of the planet, its myriad lifeforms and each other. We fell short in our assignment...but God never changed his plans for us. (Isaiah 55:11) He had to fix what was wrong and then take us back to that original plan.

Trailblazer said:
So those souls who are veiled from God will exist in hell whereas those souls who are near to God will attain to a heavenly existence.

There is no "hell". The Bible speaks of "sheol" and "hades" both of which mean the common grave of mankind. It is a place of rest, not torment. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) When humans invented the idea of an immortal soul, they had to invent places for those souls to go. The Bible makes no mention of them.

Deeje · Jun 28, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Those souls that sin will be DEAD because they will not have eternal life, since they will be separated from God by their sin. They will continue to exist in the spiritual world, but they will be in a state of hell, rather than heaven.

There is no "heaven or hell" scenario anywhere in scripture. All Israel got offered was life or death....that's it.
Everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting death. It is not more complicated than that.

Trailblazer said:
That is correct, but it will be eternal life of the soul, not eternal life of the physical body.

There is not really any way for a mortal to have eternal life because 'eternal' means no beginning or end. We have a beginning so what the Bible promises is "everlasting life" based on our ongoing obedience to God's commands.

Trailblazer said:
All that nonsense about the body rising from the grave came into Christianity because of Paul. Physical bodies never rise from graves and come back to life.

LOL I guess Jesus was pulling everyone's leg when he raised Lazarus then? (John 11:11-14) And Jairus' daughter....and the widow's son?
He also said that he would raise the dead when he brings his kingdom rule to this earth. (Revelation 21:3-4)
John 5:28-29...
"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

None of that is anything to do with Paul....

Trailblazer said:
All these verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not eternal life of the physical body.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

You do understand that there are two different resurrections? One is to heaven for the chosen ones....those who will be resurrected to heaven to rule with Jesus. Revelation 20:6. These are resurrected "first"....and then there is the earthly resurrection performed by Jesus after his cleansing the earth of all wickedness....calling the dead from their graves. (John 5:28-29) Again, nothing to do with Paul.

Trailblazer said:
As I said above, the Holy Spirit has to work through a Person, it does nothing disembodied.

We have no belief in the holy spirit being part of a trinity.

Trailblazer said:
I do hope you at least understand that there is MORE than ONE WAY to interpret the Bible.If you do not understand that ten you are acting upon emotion and not logic.

I'm sorry but different interpretations don't make any of them right. There is only one truth, not several versions of it that may or may not be correct. We have one shot to get this right....and the fact is, we would never get a handle on the truth without God guiding the way. (John 6:65) But we have to let him.

It is my belief that God will have every single one of us exactly where we should be come the judgment. We have already shown him who we are, and what we have chosen, or not chosen to believe. There are only "sheep" and "goats" at the end, so we had better hope that we are in the right category.

Trailblazer said:
And according to your studies, the other Christians are wrong in their interpretation of scripture, so why are you right and they are wrong? After all, I am sure other Christians have also studied the Bible extensively. Do you at least understand the logical problem?

Oh I understand perfectly. I also understand that logic has very little to do with faith.

Trailblazer said:
Do you have a point to make about the tomb of Baha’u’llah?

Yes, just wondering if Baha’u’lla's body is in his tomb.....because Jesus body was not in his. Is there a reason for that.....just wondering.

TransmutingSoul · Jun 28, 2019

Just wondering as this thread is......

Love for all,
Hate for none,
May I offer
This thread is done!

Regards Tony

Jedster · Jun 28, 2019

Milton Platt said:
How does that square with the bloody history of Islam?

Well it doesn't square with both Ahmadi Muslims & Bahais ,who have never persecuted anyone, but rather been the objects of persecution.
Of course we cannot know how they would behave if they became major religions.

Unguru · Jun 28, 2019

Good message I think.

dybmh · Jun 28, 2019

Milton Platt said:
How does that square with the bloody history of Islam?

It doesn't.

Trailblazer · Jun 28, 2019

Deeje said:
LOL....God is the Creator of biological sons. What do you think Adam was?

Does God then lack the ability to manipulate his own biology to produce his second biological son.....Jesus, who became the Christ? Seriously? God does have biological children....what do you think we are?

We are all biological children of our human parents, no matter who we are. Except Adam, He had no human parents. Adam came into existence from the Spirit of life. I suggest you read this short chapter:
18: THE GREATNESS OF CHRIST IS DUE TO HIS PERFECTIONS

In another sense, God is the Father of us all because God is ultimately responsible for our existence.

Deeje said:
Mary wasn't in heaven. She and he egg cells were entirely earth bound.
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God used one of them to transfer the life force of his spirit son in heaven, so that he would be born of an earthly woman and die a mortal death to redeem mankind. That was the whole idea. Are you saying that this impossible for the Creator of life?

No, that is not impossible, and that is what happened according to my beliefs. Jesus was born and came into existence from the Holy Spirit.

Deeje said:
It is Jesus himself who says he is God's son. He is the one who says that God is his Father and "Our Father". Remember? This is entirely about relationships and using a human relationship to describe the bond between God and his firstborn is entirely appropriate IMO. Since God is the Creator of his son, that makes God his Father.

That is true in the sense that you put it. Using a human relationship to describe the bond between God and His Son is appropriate.

Deeje said:
I understand completely why Christendom is not real Christianity....its why we are no part of Christendom and her widely held and disputed doctrines, most of which came from Roman Catholicism, not the Bible. We went back to the beginning and rediscovered original Christianity. There were some amazing discoveries. We got a divorce!

Well, that is a divorce that they should all get, IMO.

I just don’t know how Paul fits into the new marriage.

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