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If the Bible was first discovered in the Qumran caves near the Dead Sea...

exchemist

Veteran Member
It actually makes perfect sense.

I never got a straight answer on how the Catholics acquired the Bible in the Middle Ages. Somebody had to discover It initially, and it seems like nobody knows.

Just about every Google search as to when the Bible was first discovered always goes to the Dead Sea Scrolls and Discovery of arguably the oldest biblical text in 1970 at Ein Gedi.

Nothing at all about how the Catholic Church got the Bible, making them arguably the first ones who discovered it.

Who, where, and when?
This seems rather a daft question. The Jews had the OT all the time of course and thus so did the nascent Christian church. The books of the NT- gospels and epistles - were written after the death of Christ and were in the possession of the early church from the beginning.

There were different versions and translations of course, but no earthly reason to think there was ever a time when the Christian church existed without the books of the bible. How could it have?

The Dead Sea Scrolls are concerned with the OT only.

Where on earth do you get the idea that Catholic Church somehow acquired the bible in the Middle Ages? What do you think the other churches (Orthodox, Coptic, Syriac etc) used?
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
No, the context here is of false religion. Generally Babylon
speaks to false religion, and Egypt speaks to worldliness.
But just once in this narrative we read this.
Rome was of little consequence to Revelations, despite
what some say. Rome was just another empire - the
book was about the world and eternity. Some think to see
Roman emperors in Revelations - I think the author would
not write about something so small and insignificant.

But.. I am open to ideas. I am not a total fan of this
statement.

Rome is mentioned in Daniel. This was well before even
the Grecians. Rome is the one who would destroy the
Temple and "cut off" the Messiah.
Well I agree its al fairly obscure. But all the less reason for the church to bother tinkering with it, surely?

Though I must say I do sometimes wonder why Revelation is included in the bible at all. It seems fairly crazy and devoid of useful messages.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Well I agree its al fairly obscure. But all the less reason for the church to bother tinkering with it, surely?

Though I must say I do sometimes wonder why Revelation is included in the bible at all. It seems fairly crazy and devoid of useful messages.


And it was more controversial at the time is was accepted into the Bible. Some of those present were quite against it being accepted as canonical.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
It actually makes perfect sense.

I never got a straight answer on how the Catholics acquired the Bible in the Middle Ages. Somebody had to discover It initially, and it seems like nobody knows.

Just about every Google search as to when the Bible was first discovered always goes to the Dead Sea Scrolls and Discovery of arguably the oldest biblical text in 1970 at Ein Gedi.

Nothing at all about how the Catholic Church got the Bible, making them arguably the first ones who discovered it.

Who, where, and when?
Sorry I thought you were taking a poke at us. Often the best place to look is a Bible Handbook such Haley's or Zondervan's. There's also the online Catholic encyclopedia. The online 1910 Jewish encyclopedia may have something, too.

There are two modern sources, recently unearthed, which testify to life in Galilee around the time of the fall of the temple and Roman rule. The Dead Sea Scrolls are one, and the Qumran scrolls are the other. They were discovered, surprisingly, in the 20th century. The Dead Sea Scrolls contained lots of scraps but almost a complete copy of the Isaiah scroll. Isaiah is a book in the Bible. The Qumran scrolls appear to have been made by a very extreme, very observant sect of Jews who mostly kept to themselves and had writings criticizing the priesthood. They quite upset with something that happened in the priesthood, and it was probably the fact that the position of head priest became a Roman political appointment.

That is not where we get the Bible from, however. The rabbinical Jews maintained most of the Bible over time. The Roman Catholic church also did so. There have been various translations, and there have been some copying errors, too. The modern discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Qumran Scrolls verify for us that a lot of this copying was relatively accurate, but they are not where the Bible comes from.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
.... then what exactly did the medieval Catholic Church have , and how in the world did they get the Bible if nobody hadn't discovered the Bible yet?

Also why isn't the first discovery of the Bible attributed to the Catholic Church but instead later on in the 1940s when the Dead Sea Scrolls were uncovered?

The Dead Sea Scrolls are older than prior extant scrolls. They verified that despite what Rome did to suppress general knowledge of the scriptures, that the scriptures are the Word of the living God.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member

Constantine was a politician who jumped at the opportunity to get state control over a rapidly growing new religion within the empire.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
We have the Old and New Testaments handed down to us.
The ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS are long lost.
They were copied over and over.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are just much older copies of these.
And remarkably, people took a lot of care with ensuring they
were faithful to the previous documents.

Actually an "elite and secretive clique", known as the "Ecole" consisting mostly of members of a "Dominican Order", had gotten control of the "Dead Sea Scrolls" in 1952, after the initial discovery in 1947, and they probably would still be kept them secret unless the Huntington Library had released a set of unpublicized Dead Sea Scroll photographs in 1991, which were soon uplifted into a computer program which pieced together the fragments, and which in turn, it was quickly interpreted. The instigators, who did the unmasking of the scrolls, such as Professor Eisenman, had been told by the authorities, "you will not see the Scrolls in your lifetime". There were partial copies of Isaiah, etc. plus other commentary included in the Scrolls. Plus it mentioned the "liar" in Jerusalem, whom the people of Qumran had vowed to not rest until he was killed. Most likely referring to the self professed apostle Paul. Source material: "The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered" by Eisenman and Wise.
 
Constantine was a politician who jumped at the opportunity to get state control over a rapidly growing new religion within the empire.

The empire was maybe 7-10% Christian. Adopting a minority religion that was still being persecuted doesn't seem to be an opportunity worth jumping for as a purely cynical exercise in power politics.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Dead Sea Scrolls are older than prior extant scrolls. They verified that despite what Rome did to suppress general knowledge of the scriptures, that the scriptures are the Word of the living God.
It was "Rome" that chose the canon of the Bible you use.

BTW, Luther had some regrets over making the Bible easier for the public to have have such easy access to as he said later in life that now even a "milk maid" thinks she's an expert.

BTW, there are a minimum of three scriptural readings at each mass in a Catholic church on a weekday (I'm including the Psalm), and there are four on Sundays, so it one is paying attention, ...
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The empire was maybe 7-10% Christian. Adopting a minority religion that was still being persecuted doesn't seem to be an opportunity worth jumping for as a purely cynical exercise in power politics.

Actually, the results Constantine wanted was a unified nation. He simply instituted a Roman religion based on the Hellenistic church of the false prophet Paul, with the injection of the worship of his pagan god, Sol Invictus, with other pagan traditions added, such as the feast of Astarte/Easter, and the worship of a triune of gods. His Roman church eventually came around to worshipping the birth date of Sol Invictus, the 25th of December.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
It was "Rome" that chose the canon of the Bible you use.

BTW, Luther had some regrets over making the Bible easier for the public to have have such easy access to as he said later in life that now even a "milk maid" thinks she's an expert.

BTW, there are a minimum of three scriptural readings at each mass in a Catholic church on a weekday (I'm including the Psalm), and there are four on Sundays, so it one is paying attention, ...

Actually, Constantine published 50 copies of a bible, whose content, has been lost to history, probably burnt by Constantine. Only the record of one book in that bible survives, and that book is not included in the current generally accepted NT canon. The generally accepted canon was the product of Athanasius, the bishop of Alexandria, produced in the festal letter for the feast of the pagan feast of Easter, in 367 AD., past the expiration date of Constantine. While the daughter of Babylon, the Roman church sits on the "beast"/Rome, and received its authority from such "beast", the present canon was produced apart from the ruling authority, Rome, whose authority came from the "dragon"/devil (Revelation 13:4 & 11). It was a bishop of the Roman church, which sits on the beast, who produced the current, generally used, NT canon.
 
His Roman church eventually came around to worshipping the birth date of Sol Invictus, the 25th of December.

This narrative is refuted in this paper which has a detailed analysis or Roman paganism and the history of Sol starting p281. There is no evidence that Sol was 'elevated' into some kind of henotheistic primacy as representations are consistent over centuries.

The idea that 25 Dec was a longstanding and important feast day for Sol Invictus has no evidence to support. The only source that identifies 25 Dec for Sol, also identifies it as the date of the Birth of Christ and is from the 4th C. Even this is ambiguous as it doesn't mention Sol, only 'birthday of the unconquered'.

Festivals for Sol are also recorded in August 8, 9, 28 and October 19, 22 and Dec 11, all predating the Dec 25 date recorded in a single source.

So there is no source that clearly identifies 25 Dec as a major festival for Sol. The one source that is possible also mentions Christ on 25 Dec. There is no clear evidence Sol was elevated into a position of primacy at any point. Festivals for Sol were more established on other dates.

This, the cult of Sol Invictus is overstated in its importance and the idea that there was a massively important festival in his honour on Dec 25 is not supported by the evidence.

Romans (and many others) did acknowledge cosmological significance in the equinoxes, although theses were not inexorably bound to Sol Invictus. These are tangible astrological events after all, not simply religious constructs.

As such, based on cultural perception of the equinox as significant, Christian dates became attached to these relating to both Jesus and John the Baptist because they were the equinoxes, not because they were trying to appropriate pagan festivals to win converts.

The similarity is likely based on the similar cultures rather than direct imitation.
 
Actually, Constantine published 50 copies of a bible, whose content, has been lost to history, probably burnt by Constantine. Only the record of one book in that bible survives, and that book is not included in the current generally accepted NT canon. The generally accepted canon was the product of Athanasius, the bishop of Alexandria, produced in the festal letter for the feast of the pagan feast of Easter, in 367 AD., past the expiration date of Constantine. While the daughter of Babylon, the Roman church sits on the "beast"/Rome, and received its authority from such "beast", the present canon was produced apart from the ruling authority, Rome, whose authority came from the "dragon"/devil (Revelation 13:4 & 11). It was a bishop of the Roman church, which sits on the beast, who produced the current, generally used, NT canon.

Constantine didn't create the Bible.

Remember that not all of 'Christendom' was located inside the Roman Empire, and that these churches have very similar Bibles, although not identical.

There is obviously not One True Bible, but most of it was agreed upon by multiple independent traditions rather than being the product of any specific individual.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The first recorded date of Christmas being celebrated on December 25th was in 336, during the time of the Roman Emperor Constantine (he was the first Christian Roman Emperor). A few years later, Pope Julius I officially declared that the birth of Jesus would be celebrated on the 25th December.
saturnalia festival - Bing

Sol Invictus was the god of Constantine, and in 313 AD 1 year after the vision of Milvian Bridge, whereas Constantine had a vision from Sol Invictus, and was to go out and conquer under the sign of the pagan cross, Constantine minted a coin with both his picture with that of Sol Invictus, his god.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Actually, Constantine published 50 copies of a bible, whose content, has been lost to history, probably burnt by Constantine. Only the record of one book in that bible survives, and that book is not included in the current generally accepted NT canon. The generally accepted canon was the product of Athanasius, the bishop of Alexandria, produced in the festal letter for the feast of the pagan feast of Easter, in 367 AD., past the expiration date of Constantine. While the daughter of Babylon, the Roman church sits on the "beast"/Rome, and received its authority from such "beast", the present canon was produced apart from the ruling authority, Rome, whose authority came from the "dragon"/devil (Revelation 13:4 & 11). It was a bishop of the Roman church, which sits on the beast, who produced the current, generally used, NT canon.
Source?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Constantine didn't create the Bible.
Correct, as he was in no way a theologian-- quite the opposite, as a matter of fact, which is why he had convened bishops from such a wide area to decide such matters.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Constantine didn't create the Bible.

Remember that not all of 'Christendom' was located inside the Roman Empire, and that these churches have very similar Bibles, although not identical.

There is obviously not One True Bible, but most of it was agreed upon by multiple independent traditions rather than being the product of any specific individual.

No one created Constantine's early 50 copies bible. It was compiled, and probably by his man Friday, Eusebius. There were no similar bibles, there were hundreds if not thousands of parchments being carried around by mostly uneducated preachers, who liked Paul's message, and went about preaching it. Before Constantine, there was an Eastern Roman Empire and a Western Roman Empire. Through the overthrow of 3 kings (Daniel 7:24), Constantine unified Rome. Constantine's vision was to fully unify the two, and his religious ploy was the route he apparently chose. The Bishop of Rome didn't even attend the Council of Nicaea, located near the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire. Although he did send two underlings. The bishops involved were mostly Eastern Empire bishops.
 
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