Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective

Subduction Zone · Dec 13, 2018

oldbadger said:
The wind generators off our shores here are so huge that they seem like a few hundred yards off shore instead of 5 miles out. That's because they are about 150 meters high with one rotor at tdc. That's how we can see the London Array 25 miles away, after rain clears the atmosphere, the sun can light up hundreds of rotors circulating on the horizon.... amazing.

The nearest home to mine with Solar Voltaic panels has 16 on its roof, which is probably the average around here. These systems send, upload or back-charge (?) electricity in to our national grid and thus their electricity meters credit the home's account if it is giving back more than it is using. One neighbour's large system cost £18,000 to install back in 2004, so I guess that would be more expensive today. Governments have offered financial grants in order to attract householders to have them fitted, but I believe that grants and various benefits have been reduced now.

A friend of mine had solar water panels installed back in 2000, but he had many troubles with that during the summer. The system didn't seem to be able to control upper temperatures and on a couple of occasions the system burst and flooded the central part of his home. That put me off solar water heating! But solar voltaic panels are everywhere here.

Any new buildings, extensions, conversions or upgrades have to use 75mm and/or 100mm foil faced insulation panels either inside single skin or between cavity walls, and even between flooring and loft joists.

Our windows have to be fitted with double and triple glazing which reflects heat back in to the property, and argon is the gas used mostly in glazing cavities because it does not expand so much when heated by sunlight. More inert.. External glazing in these (modern) sealed units reflects sunlight away in order to keep cavity temperatures down in summer. Many years ago I installed our replacement d/g windows myself (before legislation controlled who could install such windows). I was worried about sealed units blowing in high temperatures and so fitted a tyre valve to a double glazing 300x300 d/g sample's spacer-rail, equalised pressure in the cavity and then left it out in sunlight for an hour. When I tested the internal pressure with a bike pressure gauge it read 40psi which really worried me, so I asked the manager at the sealed unit plant to lay my units flat and place a weight in the centre of the glass before sealing them. In the winter this distorts reflections but I've not had a blown sealed unit yet, not in two decades.

Oh dear......... I've slid far away from the thread, I'm afraid.
And I still haven't answered your most pertinent points and questions. I'll have to revisit and reply again to this post........

And for a potential downside on solar energy

Solar Panels Drain the Sun's Energy, Experts Say

Subduction Zone · Dec 13, 2018

oldbadger said:
OK....... Let's try this....... I have read beautiful accounts of how the world was formed by North American Indians, and members like @Vinayaka could probably describe accounts about creation of the world by Hindu God/s (which would be interesting). And then there is early Genesis. My idea of metaphor is the application of a description that is not literal, but I don't feel that the writer has to know exactly what the literal explanation is...... do you feel that the writer should know? I mean, your writer bloody well knows that a person cannot shoot bullets, and knows exactly what a pistol is, and so, do you expect this level of knowledge to be present before somebody describes a thing or event I personally don't think so... and so Genesis doesn't upset me in the least.

I can tell you that in 1953 primary school books about geography (where I attended) showed an introductory picture showing how the planets were formed..... the sun produced a blister caused by centrifugal forces which expanded outwards in to a long plume of matter which then split up in to clumps which became planets. I wish I had that book now! It's just unbelievably crazy that only 65 years ago scholl books like that were still around. And that was at a Church of England school!

The description in Genesis beats that easily, because we now know that we couldn't be alive without star-dust from above (carbon from super-novae), that life might/could have been initiated from the 'heavens', that the seas came along later (Genesis got that bit slightly too early ), ........ in fact the more I read about Earth's development so the more impressed I am.

I live in a country which on-the-whole is much less heated about religion and creation stories, probably because religion here is so small..... many church communions on Sundays around here might have congregations of five or less people. OK, the Catholic Church has about 30 I hear. We just don't feel too threatened by Christianity any more. The Kingdom Hall is the only religious centre which has such a large congregation that our town is divided in two with two JW congregations of about 100+ people so that they don't have to build yet another Hall for a while. And Herne Bay is a small seaside town.......

And so I cannot cross swords over the issue of my perception of Genesis being a (kind of) metaphor against your perception of Genesis being a 'wrong description'... have I got that about right? To me it's just a quaint description which I can place as metaphor. And I reckon that some descriptions in later Genesis could be based upon truth.

I'm a Deist, and I don't think many of us get too agitated about our belief, about Theism being wrong.

It appears that you were taught the Tidal Hypothesis of James Jeans, though that is rather strange since it had been losing favor for over 20 years at that time and the Nebular Hypothesis was again in favor at that time:

Jeans-Jeffreys tidal hypothesis

The hypothesis answered many questions of planetary formation but could not deal with the fact that most of the systems angular momentum is not found within the Sun.

Vinayaka · Dec 13, 2018

oldbadger said:
OK....... Let's try this....... I have read beautiful accounts of how the world was formed by North American Indians, and members like @Vinayaka could probably describe accounts about creation of the world by Hindu God/s (which would be interesting).

Nope, not interesting. OB. For my sampradaya, it's emanation from itself, like clouds forming raindrops. So the 'creations' essence is no different than God. 'Creator' and 'creation' are the same. No myth involved. just theory, and not anthropomorphic.

oldbadger · Dec 13, 2018

It Aint Necessarily So said:
You're reading into my words and injecting a message of your own invention into them, not the one I offered. What I wrote is that science is not responsible for the ways that government and industry apply it, not that science is all knowledge, and certainly not anything supernatural or religious.
Science deserves our respect and our gratitude. There is nothing else like it. I mentioned the recent explosive revolution in forensic science to you in an earlier post, one which has made police investigations and courtroom trials much more likely to identify the guilty and exonerate the innocent, which has been of benefit beyond just ensuring justice. Many of these cases are so compelling that the accused simply confesses to avoid an inevitable conviction and a harsher sentence, thus saving the taxpayer and the families of the victim and defendant the cost and ordeal of a trial, not to mention the disincentive of having potential criminals coming to believe that if they commit such crimes, they'll probably be caught however careful one is, however much you scrub up the blood, stage the crime scene, avoid leaving fingerprints, or try to collect your spent shell casings.
That progress deserves a standing ovation. Once again, science has improved the human condition and made life better. Acknowledging that is hardly turning science into more than it is or deifying it as you have suggested.
But you are correct that science itself doesn't do harm. It just tells us how the world works. The worst it can do is get that wrong.

I have worked alongside forensic specialists, and know something about them. I've got no beefs about forensic evidence..... but I do know that humans have to produce it. We both know about humans, I feel sure.

I look upon science as knowledge, pure exact complete knowledge, some of which we know about, much of which lies waiting to be discovered. As a Deist I accept that everything is part of the whole, a Deity, but a Deity so vast that it has no awareness of or interest in each of us. If you would kindly look at the back of your left little finger, and focus upon a single hair (use a glass!) you will probably have been unaware of and disinterested in that hair kin all your time before......... and so all science is a part of the Deity, as is every atom or force, or anti-mater and negative force, as all dark matter........ everything and nothingness.

And so, yes, Science is a part of God, of course......
Now Scientists have found some of that knowledge, in some cases complete parts and in others incomplete parts. As time moves on our scientists can turn over old science as not being science at all....... and so for us 'our' science is mostly a moving surface punctuated by upheaval and quakes of new knowledge. We need humility in our present knowledge, some of which will be overturned one day. ...is all.

But today there is a fashion...... it's fashionable to be with the 'new knowledge' and that's ok, until folks start shouting their mouths off at the old cultures, like those Northern Indians, or Eastern Mystics, or Abrahamic religions...... or JWs.

oldbadger · Dec 13, 2018

Vinayaka said:
Nope, not interesting. OB. For my sampradaya, it's emanation from itself, like clouds forming raindrops. So the 'creations' essence is no different than God. 'Creator' and 'creation' are the same. No myth involved. just theory, and not anthropomorphic.

Ohhhh! And I so expected the most colourful and brilliant descriptions!

Deeje · Dec 13, 2018

metis said:
Nope, as your tactics aren't ethical as you twist things to suit your purpose and then you ramble and ramble and ramble instead of getting to the point as we see in your last two posts above directed at me

I was answering what you posted to me....how thoughtless of me not to consider your sensibilities....sorry.

I'm not good at condensing a book into one paragraph.

I am not your enemy metis....I am only putting a voice to the doubt you already have. I believe that you are actually fighting yourself.....and you have probably been doing it for as long as you can remember.

We all have the same choices and can all access the same information. Why did some people love Jesus and want to follow him, while others wanted to kill him? It's all about what we want to believe....isn't it? That is what separates the sheep from the goats.

metis said:
And then you bring in things not under discussion, often repeating the same pathetic and highly bigoted lies over and over again, and then you whine when you're called out on your stereotypes and lies. You ignore the reality of what science has to offer and yet you blindly assume your JW teachers are right while ignoring any evidence to the contrary.

All is relevant to the topic. I like side points personally as they expand knowledge of the subject...I think I can understand why you don't like them. I love detail but you seem to be offended by it.

metis said:
Therefore, it is virtually impossible to have a serious discussion with you because of your disingenuous tactics, such as your refusal to even consider historical evidence dealing with the Church itself, such as what we saw in your first post above.

No metis, it is impossible to have a discussion with someone who "can't handle the truth" even when it is apparent from their frequent shifts in religious thinking over the years, that they have difficulty pinning it down. What I shared is the honest truth as I understand it. I assume that you do too?

The church, (like their role models the Pharisees) say one thing and do the opposite.

I found my truth over 45 years ago and I haven't budged an inch. I feel genuinely sorry for the indecisive people of this world, who can never quite get a handle on what to believe. (James 1:6-8) I believe that these conversations give them food for thought....don't you?

I sincerely hope you eventually find what you are looking for, but I would be more than amazed if you found it in Catholicism. I think your logic will ultimately defeat how much faith it takes to believe what Catholicism teaches....but that is just me....a refugee from Christendom who found a solid house to live in...not built on sand, but built on the rock that is not Peter, but Jesus Christ. The storm is coming, so let's see whose house is still standing at the end...?

metis said:
No, I'm not interested as I said in my last post to you, but I will be commenting at times on your misrepresentation of the Truths that we do know, whether that be on this thread or some others.

I understand, but I might start a thread anyway and open it up to the Catholic folk here for discussion. I'm sure that the differences will interest at least some people. I'll work on it.

Audie · Dec 13, 2018

oldbadger said:
The wind generators off our shores here are so huge that they seem like a few hundred yards off shore instead of 5 miles out. That's because they are about 150 meters high with one rotor at tdc. That's how we can see the London Array 25 miles away, after rain clears the atmosphere, the sun can light up hundreds of rotors circulating on the horizon.... amazing.

The nearest home to mine with Solar Voltaic panels has 16 on its roof, which is probably the average around here. These systems send, upload or back-charge (?) electricity in to our national grid and thus their electricity meters credit the home's account if it is giving back more than it is using. One neighbour's large system cost £18,000 to install back in 2004, so I guess that would be more expensive today. Governments have offered financial grants in order to attract householders to have them fitted, but I believe that grants and various benefits have been reduced now.

A friend of mine had solar water panels installed back in 2000, but he had many troubles with that during the summer. The system didn't seem to be able to control upper temperatures and on a couple of occasions the system burst and flooded the central part of his home. That put me off solar water heating! But solar voltaic panels are everywhere here.

Any new buildings, extensions, conversions or upgrades have to use 75mm and/or 100mm foil faced insulation panels either inside single skin or between cavity walls, and even between flooring and loft joists.

Our windows have to be fitted with double and triple glazing which reflects heat back in to the property, and argon is the gas used mostly in glazing cavities because it does not expand so much when heated by sunlight. More inert.. External glazing in these (modern) sealed units reflects sunlight away in order to keep cavity temperatures down in summer. Many years ago I installed our replacement d/g windows myself (before legislation controlled who could install such windows). I was worried about sealed units blowing in high temperatures and so fitted a tyre valve to a double glazing 300x300 d/g sample's spacer-rail, equalised pressure in the cavity and then left it out in sunlight for an hour. When I tested the internal pressure with a bike pressure gauge it read 40psi which really worried me, so I asked the manager at the sealed unit plant to lay my units flat and place a weight in the centre of the glass before sealing them. In the winter this distorts reflections but I've not had a blown sealed unit yet, not in two decades.

Oh dear......... I've slid far away from the thread, I'm afraid.
And I still haven't answered your most pertinent points and questions. I'll have to revisit and reply again to this post........

Meanwhile China adds 15,000 cars per day.

Hockeycowboy · Dec 13, 2018

oldbadger said:
I wonder how ditches like the Grand Canyon got so wide, so deep?

Right on, @oldbadger!

JW’s, as you know, are not YEC’s, so we don’t believe that rock strata were laid down by the Flood (which we believe was Global)... at least, most of the strata. We certainly believe, though, that the Flood cut into more of the Grand Canyon, resulting in its great width & depth.

Secular scientists’ timelines virtually never agree with the Bible’s, but I don’t put much stock in their dating methods.
The soft-tissue and such discovered by Dr. Mary Schweitzer within fossilized remains of a T-Rex, supposedly at least 65 mya (when their “extinction” occurred), justifies skepticism. Hey, whaddaya know? I’m a skeptic!

Back to the Flood: interesting article about the power of a recent flood in Texas.....

Canyon carved in just three days in Texas flood: Insight into ancient flood events on Earth and Mars

Hockeycowboy · Dec 13, 2018

ImmortalFlame said:
That's it?

That's your "smoking gun"?

Something one person said, once, in one situation, in one video. Someone asks you to watch the videos of a person - a person who has put online HOURS of video footage including lectures, debates and discussions on the subject - and the sum total of all you think matters in the entirety of what you watch is what one person on the periphery of an event in one video says - once. And you think this is enough proof to determine the entire thought process of not just every other person in those videos, and of Aron-Ra, but of every person who happens to hold the same belief about evolutionary theory as the person speaking?

Are you serious?

Do you not read my post accurately? I said her statement was one reason, not the only reason, which started such widespread denigration.

savagewind · Dec 13, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
denigration.

In Paradise, we do not know what that means.

Subduction Zone · Dec 13, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
Right on, @oldbadger!

JW’s, as you know, are not YEC’s, so we don’t believe that rock strata were laid down by the Flood (which we believe was Global)... at least, most of the strata. We certainly believe, though, that the Flood cut into more of the Grand Canyon, resulting in its great width & depth.

Secular scientists’ timelines virtually never agree with the Bible’s, but I don’t put much stock in their dating methods.
The soft-tissue and such discovered by Dr. Mary Schweitzer within fossilized remains of a T-Rex, supposedly at least 65 mya (when their “extinction” occurred), justifies skepticism. Hey, whaddaya know? I’m a skeptic!

Back to the Flood: interesting article about the power of a recent flood in Texas.....

Canyon carved in just three days in Texas flood: Insight into ancient flood events on Earth and Mars

I am sorry, but that is not similar at all to the Grand Canyon. A picture of a tributary to the Colorado also totally refutes your claim.

Would you like to know how this picture alone tells us of millions of years of erosion?

Subduction Zone · Dec 13, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
Do you not read my post accurately? I said her statement was one reason, not the only reason, which started such widespread denigration.

It was not even one valid reason. It was clutching at straws by Deeje.

savagewind · Dec 13, 2018

Deeje does not clutch at straws. She hugs the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses. Heads up! They are not plastic! They are real and time will tell if they are helpful souls or very, very dangerous ones.

Hockeycowboy · Dec 13, 2018

Subduction Zone said:
This appears to be an admission that you have no response to Aron. Grasping at straws of an emotional statement.

Really, no points were being made in that video, on both sides of the issue.

Aron Ra’s attacks on these guys’ religious beliefs — though mainstream, unfortunately (like Hellfire) — shoot, I attack them, too. So Mr. Ra and I actually agree on those points.

Here, I’ll post it (I should’ve done that); too much background noise, to be enjoyable:

Subduction Zone · Dec 13, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
Really, no points were being made in that video, on both sides of the issue.

Aron Ra’s attacks on these guys’ religious beliefs — though mainstream, unfortunately (like Hellfire) — shoot, I attack them, too. So Mr. Ra and I actually agree on those points.

Here, I’ll post it (I should’ve done that); too much background noise, to be enjoyable:

I have to run right now, but I will gladly going over all of the points made in the video that you did not understand.

savagewind · Dec 13, 2018

Report me!

Hockeycowboy · Dec 13, 2018

ecco said:
Indeed. Let's not forget about the ‘desire for a dollar — their greed' when it comes to writers and touters of Creationist nonsense. I guarantee that Ken Ham makes a lot more money than the average degreed archeologist or paleontologist.

Ditti the folks at Discovery Institute with all their books and contributions.

People like archeologists and paleontologists advance knowledge. People like Ken Ham promote and perpetuate ignorance.

Yeah, probably.

So did Jim and Tammy Baker. (And many others.)

Do you think Jesus agrees with that? Or agrees with just anyone who claims to be his follower? Matthew 7:23

savagewind · Dec 13, 2018

Always negative they seem to be all the time. What forward motion with that get iao?

Hockeycowboy · Dec 13, 2018

Jose Fly said:
So you believe the folks at New World Encyclopedia are the ultimate authorities on the pre-Cambrian and Cambrian fossil record? If they say something is so, then it is so? Is that true for all subjects or just this one?

Oh, brother! I think they support mainstream science...so since they wrote what they did — they did add the preposition “in most cases,”....they didn’t say ‘all’ phyla lines (I’m surprised you didn’t pick up on that) — that would mean they are....honest?

The Cambrian Radiation being in the spotlight as it is.... if there were valid “evident precursors” (of the Cambrian life) discovered in the Ediacaran.... we’d never see or hear the end of it!

But not a peep.

Jose Fly · Dec 13, 2018

@Hockeycowboy I was wondering......since you've deemed the New World Encyclopedia to be authoritative when it comes to the fossil record, how then do you account for the following from the NWE?

Evidences of Evolution: Fossil Record

The comparison of fossils of extinct organisms in older geological strata with fossils found in more recent strata or with living organisms is considered strong evidence of descent with modification. Fossils found in more recent strata are often very similar to, or indistinguishable from living species, whereas the older the fossils the more different they are from living organisms or recent fossils. In addition, fossil evidence reveals that species of greater complexity have appeared on the earth over time, beginning in the Precambrian era some 600 millions of years ago with the first eukaryotes. The fossil records support the view that there is orderly progression in which each stage emerges from, or builds upon, preceding stages.

Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective

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