Infallibility

atanu · Sep 24, 2018

Vinayaka said:
So when did this idea that a scripture or a prophet or a messenger or a pope is absolutely perfect in every way come into practice? Has it been there since early times, or is it more recent? What purpose does it serve?

What or who do you consider infallible, if anything?

As an eastern thinker and logical person, I don't get infallibility. To be clear, I understand what it means, I just don't get how anyone else could believe in it, yet I know some do. I just shake my head and go 'really?'

Here's an example. "I'm infallible. I said I was infallible, and since I'm infallible, it is only logical to conclude I'm infallible. I mean, how could an infallible person claiming to be infallible possibly be wrong?"

Does this sound logical to you?

Well. At least from Shankara’s teaching, if perception contradicts scripture, the latter is to be understood to be correct. Else, of what value is scripture, if ego-intellect-sense could arrive at truth of their own source? In fact, scripture pointedly says “Mind and Word return from it”.

I do not know whether what I have written is relevant to the OP?

paarsurrey · Sep 24, 2018

InvestigateTruth said:
God hath, likewise, as a bounty from His presence, abolished the concept of “uncleanness,” whereby
divers things and peoples have been held to be impure. He, of a certainty, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Generous. Verily, all created things were immersed in the sea of purification when, on that first day of Riḍván, We shed upon the whole of creation the splendors of Our most excellent Names and Our most exalted Attributes. This, verily, is a token of My loving providence, which hath encompassed all the worlds. Consort ye then with the followers of all religions, and proclaim ye the Cause of your Lord, the Most Compassionate; this is the very crown of deeds, if ye be of them who understand.

From Kitab-i-Aqdas

"abolished the concept of 'uncleanness,' " Unquote.

What is this concept? Is it mentioned in Quran?
If yes, then quote the verse from Quran with the verses in the context to prove one's point of view.

Regards

InvestigateTruth · Sep 24, 2018

paarsurrey said:
"abolished the concept of 'uncleanness,' " Unquote.

What is this concept? Is it mentioned in Quran?
If yes, then quote the verse from Quran with the verses in the context to prove one's point of view.

Regards

O Believers! only they who join gods with God are unclean! Let them not, therefore, after this their year, come near the sacred Temple. And if ye fear want, God, if He please, will enrich you of His abundance: for God is Knowing, Wise.

at-Taubah 9:28

Dawnofhope · Sep 24, 2018

siti said:
Well OK - but the context (which we have been reminded several times by Bahai's in this thread is very important) has Baha'u'llah bemoaning the fact that he is being prevented by "the dogs of the earth" and "beasts of every land" from sharing the "gems of [God's] wisdom" openly. So the question is who can be identified as the ones preventing him fro m sharing openly? Perhaps it was a condition of his release from prison that he should refrain from preaching the Babi religion? Perhaps he was simply under too much government scrutiny and fearful of making any declarations that might further implicate himself as a leader of what the government of Persia (and possibly the Ottoman government) viewed as a murderous sect.

That’s very speculative without supporting evidence.

siti said:
In any case, whatever the reason and whatever the interpretation, my reason for posting the quote in the context of this thread was because one of your fellow Baha'is had falsely claimed that Baha'u'llah had never made such derogatory characterizations of fellow humans. Clearly this was wrong and, in fact, according to your comments, the opposite is true:

Bahá’u’lláh’s sternest criticisms were reserved for the religious leaders of His day. In that regard He was similar to Christ.

siti said:
And what you mean by "lower nature" is a way of looking at the world that is not Baha'i. And that was the point that another poster was making - that by calling people who happen not to agree with your faith animals, you're not going to win a huge number of friends.

The lower nature of man is applicable to all humanity, Baha’is included.

Dawnofhope · Sep 24, 2018

siti said:
So much for infallibility then!

There were reasons and wisdom for the appointment at that time.

siti · Sep 25, 2018

adrian009 said:
That’s very speculative without supporting evidence.

Is it? Then why was Mulla Ali Bastami arrested? Why was Baha'u'llah himself removed from Baghdad to Istanbul, then to Arianople and finally Akka? Why were Babis arrested, interrogated, deported and exiled from Istanbul? I don't think there's much doubt that the Babis and Baha'u'llah were viewed with suspicion by the Ottoman government. Baha'u'llah was reportedly furious when he was removed from Baghdad, feeling that he had arrived as a guest and was forced to leave as a prisoner. And it was in the course of that change of his status in Iraq that he wrote the passage in question. He was not prevented from revealing the message by religious leaders, he was prevented by the Shah and the Sultan and their officials. That's pretty obviously what he was writing about. And he was not at all like Christ in expressing contempt for his fellow man - on the contrary, Christ urged us to "love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you." (Luke 6:27-31).

paarsurrey · Sep 29, 2018

Infallibility

One may like to read my post #51 in an another thread which is very much related to the above topic, please.

Regards

Trailblazer · Sep 29, 2018

paarsurrey said:
Infallibility

One may like to read my post #51 in an another thread which is very much related to the above topic, please.

Here is my response to that post that I also posted on the other thread:

With all due respect, this is your fallible human interpretation of why Baha'u'llah did what He did, when He appointed Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi as interpreters.

This has nothing to do with the infallibility of Baha'u'llah; it speaks to His knowing what fallible humans would be able to understand. Being infallible, He knew that they would need interpreters which is why they were appointed by Him.

Marcion · Sep 29, 2018

How does one pronounce the name of Bahaullah?
As Baha-ullah or as Bahau-llah?

CG Didymus · Sep 29, 2018

Trailblazer said:
Here is my response to that post that I also posted on the other thread:

With all due respect, this is your fallible human interpretation of why Baha'u'llah did what He did, when He appointed Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi as interpreters.

This has nothing to do with the infallibility of Baha'u'llah; it speaks to His knowing what fallible humans would be able to understand. Being infallible, He knew that they would need interpreters which is why they were appointed by Him.

Since Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi were not the manifestation, wouldn't they be fallible humans?

Trailblazer · Sep 29, 2018

CG Didymus said:
Since Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi were not the manifestation, wouldn't they be fallible humans?

Yes they were fallible, but Baha'u'llah conferred infallibility upon Abdu'l-Baha.
If you want to know more about that, you will have to ask one of the other Baha'is. I am sure they would know more than I do. I just read it in the book entitled The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, but I forgot the details.

paarsurrey · Sep 29, 2018

Infallibility

One may like to read my post #103 in another thread which is much related to this thread also, please.

Regards

Milton Platt · Sep 29, 2018

Audie said:
Christian fundamentalists have it that the bible
is infallible, and that god guides their intrrpretation-
effectively making them infalluble.

" intrrpretation"??? Better lay off the wine, Audie. LOL

Milton Platt · Sep 29, 2018

WalterTrull said:
Yeah. How can there be evil? How can things happen that I don't want to happen? The only infallible does lots of things I don't like, at least at the moment. I'm guessing all things are appropriate. Doesn't make me a happy camper lots of times. Interpreters are almost always fallible. Guess I have to include me.

“You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, ‘When you’re done, I’m going to punish you.’If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your God.”
― Tracie Harris

CG Didymus · Sep 30, 2018

Milton Platt said:
“You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, ‘When you’re done, I’m going to punish you.’If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your God.”
― Tracie Harris

But what's God going to do with his people that do the raping, but then ask for forgiveness? He's obligated to forgive them. And that raped child, that goes through life all screwed up because of the trauma, if that kid doesn't get "saved", then God is obligated to send that kid to hell. And that's the best plan an all-knowing, all-loving God could come up with?

Trailblazer · Sep 30, 2018

CG Didymus said:
But what's God going to do with his people that do the raping, but then ask for forgiveness? He's obligated to forgive them.

No, God is not obligated to forgive anyone. God has no obligations. God may or not forgive them, but the bolded part below is what will happen to them:

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-171

Milton Platt · Sep 30, 2018

CG Didymus said:
But what's God going to do with his people that do the raping, but then ask for forgiveness? He's obligated to forgive them. And that raped child, that goes through life all screwed up because of the trauma, if that kid doesn't get "saved", then God is obligated to send that kid to hell. And that's the best plan an all-knowing, all-loving God could come up with?

Exactly. Under the Christian god, both mercy and justice get short changed.

Trailblazer said:
No, God is not obligated to forgive anyone. God has no obligations. God may or not forgive them, but the bolded part below is what will happen to them:

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-171

God has no obligations? So god is not obligated to keep his word? So he is potentially untrustworthy, then? Interesting viewpoint.

paarsurrey · Sep 30, 2018

Trailblazer said:
Yes they were fallible, but Baha'u'llah conferred infallibility upon Abdu'l-Baha.
If you want to know more about that, you will have to ask one of the other Baha'is. I am sure they would know more than I do. I just read it in the book entitled The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, but I forgot the details.

Abdul Baha's infallibility is as doubtful as of Bahaullah's himself. They were both human beings born of women.

Regards

paarsurrey · Sep 30, 2018

InvestigateTruth said:
O Believers! only they who join gods with God are unclean! Let them not, therefore, after this their year, come near the sacred Temple. And if ye fear want, God, if He please, will enrich you of His abundance: for God is Knowing, Wise.

at-Taubah 9:28

Now quote the verses in the context, some preceding and some following for correct understanding of the friends here, please.

Has one read the whole chapter 9:28 of Quran, if not the whole Quran from cover to cover, please.

Regards

Trailblazer · Sep 30, 2018

Milton Platt said:
God has no obligations? So god is not obligated to keep his word? So he is potentially untrustworthy, then? Interesting viewpoint.

God does keep His word but he never promised to forgive everyone.

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