I've Sacrificed my belief in Evolution for Religion

Vee · May 6, 2018

NathantheProfit said:
I've recently committed to rejoining my family's religion (the Jehovah's Witnesses). In doing so I'm obligated to give up my belief in evolution. This is hard for me because I find evolution so logical.

To combat my resistance to rejecting evolution, I've been researching all the objections to evolution and studying all the arguments for creation. It's not working. I can't seem to give up my belief in evolution, despite the fact that it goes against Jehovah's Witness theology.

What should i do?

How do I manipulate my logical facilities so that I can genuinely reject evolution and genuinely accept creation?

If you don't have a genuine faith, you shouldn't become a Jehovah's Witness, even if that's what your family wants for you. If that's what you're doing, you're lying to them and to yourself.

Don't make that commitment to make your family happy. You won't be able to keep up the charade. Be honest with everyone and give yourself time to learn everything you can. Make an educated decision that comes from your heart.

Rival · May 6, 2018

Vee said:
Make an educated decision that comes from your intellect.

FIFY.

Segev Moran · May 6, 2018

Jesster said:
I don't understand why you would want to manipulate your thinking like this. Why reject the evidence to try to fit in? This goes far beyond just pretending to believe what others do just to appease them. I'm not even sure it's possible to choose your beliefs like this anyway.

I think all you can do is look at the evidence and form your beliefs based on what shows up. If the results are different from what you would prefer to believe, oh well. I guess you'll have to pretend.

I agree with you, but please note you are missing one thing.
Faith is nothing more than choosing belief without any evidence.
If it wasn't so, it wasn't faith

most people choose their faith based on family, friends and other people who influence them. It will usually be in a form of finding comfort, common grounds and at times (unfortunately) it is due to fear of being alone or alienated.

NathantheProfit · May 6, 2018

Vee said:
If you don't have a genuine faith, you shouldn't become a Jehovah's Witness, even if that's what your family wants for you. If that's what you're doing, you're lying to them and to yourself.

Don't make that commitment to make your family happy. You won't be able to keep up the charade. Be honest with everyone and give yourself time to learn everything you can. Make an educated decision that comes from your heart.

I dont really understand your position. I thought you believe you have the truth? If you do, then I shouldn't need faith; I should just need proper understanding. Are you saying I should just continue believing in evolution, which you think it untrue, because this is somehow who I am? This is where I'm confused by your message.

My heart (or emotions) is telling me to return to the 'truth'. Genuine faith seems like something that is cultivated. So if I don't happen to have it now, maybe I will in the future.

Vee · May 6, 2018

NathantheProfit said:
I dont really understand your position. I thought you believe you have the truth? If you do, then I shouldn't need faith; I should just need proper understanding. Are you saying I should just continue believing in evolution, which you think it untrue, because this is somehow who I am? This is where I'm confused by your message.

My heart (or emotions) is telling me to return to the 'truth'. Genuine faith seems like something that is cultivated. So if I don't happen to have it now, maybe I will in the future.

I'm telling you to become a Witness only if you believe, beyond any doubt that it is the truth. If you believe in evolution, you don't really believe in Jehovah, so why would you want to become a Witness? What is your real motivation?

NathantheProfit · May 6, 2018

Segev Moran said:
Can I ask what is the Jehovah witness approach towards evolution?

From what I know, each species was created independently. Humans were created roughly 6000 years ago. But the other species were created according to an old-earth model based on what modern science claims about their age. Technically their view is everything was created incrementally in a way that takes causality into account. The atmosphere was prepared for those who would breathe. Vegetation was prepared for those who would eat plants. Species died out naturally to allow for a more peaceful existence for future species yet to be created.

They appeal to the appearance of design in nature, claiming it is too precise to be the result of natural selection.

I hope this answers your question.

Subduction Zone · May 6, 2018

Vee said:
I'm telling you to become a Witness only if you believe, beyond any doubt that it is the truth. If you believe in evolution, you don't really believe in Jehovah, so why would you want to become a Witness? What is your real motivation?

At best you can only claim that they do not believe in a particular version of "Jehovah". Others besides the JW's may have such a belief.

NathantheProfit · May 6, 2018

Vee said:
I'm telling you to become a Witness only if you believe, beyond any doubt that it is the truth. If you believe in evolution, you don't really believe in Jehovah, so why would you want to become a Witness? What is your real motivation?

For the record, since making this thread I've received a lot of material debunking evolution that's shifted me from being agnostic on the subject to outrightly suppressing the theory.

I wrote a thread on this site called "Do we control our beliefs?" where I entertain the position of 'doxastic voluntarism' (which is the position that one can employ will to control the beliefs they hold). I want to reject a belief in evolution for many reasons. I don't like the belief in evolution because it makes the world seem cold and cruel. Second I want to be a member without being a hypocrite. Finally the theory conflicts greatly with your theology. Assimilating the theory into your theology would require monumental reinterpretation.

My motivation is to transform myself. I want to 'be all that I can be', so to speak. I want a genuine hope. I want a united fellowship. Is that too much to ask for?

Subduction Zone · May 6, 2018

NathantheProfit said:
For the record, since making this thread I've received a lot of material debunking evolution that's shifted me from being agnostic on the subject to outrightly suppressing the theory.

I wrote a thread on this site called "Do we control our beliefs?" where I entertain the position of 'doxastic voluntarism' (which is the position that one can employ will to control the beliefs they hold). I want to reject a belief in evolution for many reasons. I don't like the belief in evolution because it makes the world seem cold and cruel. Second I want to be a member without being a hypocrite. Finally the theory conflicts greatly with your theology. Assimilating the theory into your theology would require monumental reinterpretation.

My motivation is to transform myself. I want to 'be all that I can be', so to speak. I want a genuine hope. I want a united fellowship. Is that too much to ask for?

How do you know that the information that you received debunked evolution? Creationist sources are usually amazingly wrong and most times dishonest to boot.

Perhaps you might want to try running a few of the arguments in the various evolution threads and see how they fare.

Vee · May 6, 2018

NathantheProfit said:
I want a genuine hope. I want a united fellowship. Is that too much to ask for?

I really hope everything works out for you. Let me know if I can help.
Take care.

Hockeycowboy · May 6, 2018

@NathantheProfit ,

Please put your concerns before Jehovah..... He really will help all who search for Him!
Isaiah 41:13...."For I, Jehovah your God, am grasping your right hand, the One saying to you, ' Do not be afraid. I will help you.' "

Acts of the Apostles 17:27.

PM me, if you'd like.

Hockeycowboy · May 6, 2018

Rival said:
FIFY.

@Vee simply meant "genuine"....saying to "make an educated decision" covers the intellect part.

Hockeycowboy · May 6, 2018

NathantheProfit said:
I dont really understand your position. I thought you believe you have the truth? If you do, then I shouldn't need faith; I should just need proper understanding. Are you saying I should just continue believing in evolution, which you think it untrue, because this is somehow who I am? This is where I'm confused by your message.

My heart (or emotions) is telling me to return to the 'truth'. Genuine faith seems like something that is cultivated. So if I don't happen to have it now, maybe I will in the future.

If you'll recall, both Vee and I said that it takes time..... to make proper changes in your life (quit the bad speech, fornication, etc.), acquire the knowledge (helping you to draw close to Jehovah), to gain appreciation for the value of Christ's sacrifice, to really contemplate the wonderful future mankind has to look forward to! And how it all ties together....go slow, regularly pray to Jehovah and read His Word, and take your time to learn....it will really help you to see James 4:8 come true!

Thermos aquaticus · May 7, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
From RichardSternberg.org | Smithsonian Controversy:
"In 2004, in my capacity as editor of The Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, I authorized “The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories” by Dr. Stephen Meyer to be published in the journal after passing peer-review. Because Dr. Meyer’s article presented scientific evidence for intelligent design in biology, I faced retaliation, defamation, harassment, and a hostile work environment at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History that was designed to force me out as a Research Associate there. These actions were taken by federal government employees acting in concert with an outside advocacy group, the National Center for Science Education. Efforts were also made to get me fired from my job as a staff scientist at the National Center for Biotechnology Information. Subsequently, there were two federal investigations of my mistreatment, one by the U.S. Office of Special Counsel in 2005 , and the other by subcommittee staff of the U.S. House Committee on Government Reform in 2006. Both investigations unearthed clear evidence that my rights had been repeatedly violated. Because there has been so much misinformation spread about what actually happened to me, I have decided to make available the relevant documents here for those who would like to know the truth."

RichardSternberg.org | Smithsonian Controversy

Both of those investigations were political hitjobs. Subsequent independent investigations found that the worst that happened to Sternberg is that people said some mean things about him in emails that he didn't see until they were subpoenaed. You can read more here:

Creating a Martyr: The Sternberg Saga Continues

Thermos aquaticus · May 7, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
This actually has no bearing on the subject. Nathantheprophet is studying the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses..... We are not YEC's. In discerning all that happened on Day 6, and tying it in with Paul's words @ Hebrews 4, we have discovered that the Creative Days were not literal days.

Rejecting common ancestry and evolution still requires you to reject decades and decades of evidence from multiple fields, and also a complete abandonment of both reason and logic.

Hockeycowboy · May 7, 2018

Thermos aquaticus said:
Rejecting common ancestry and evolution still requires you to reject decades and decades of evidence from multiple fields, and also a complete abandonment of both reason and logic.

Evidence that’s been interpreted to reach an a priori conclusion. Give me a break.

I guess you believe that Dr. Stephen Meyer, Doug Axe, Jonathan Wells and others have all ‘completely abandoned reason and logic’, eh?

You probably accept no evidence supporting paranormal activity, either. Go to the Paranormal board, and tell all those people they are wrong.

Jose Fly · May 7, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
Evidence that’s been interpreted to reach an a priori conclusion. Give me a break.

Again you show how you're very comfortable throwing around baseless accusations.

I'm curious......do you think you're representing your faith in a positive light when you do that?

Segev Moran · May 8, 2018

NathantheProfit said:
From what I know, each species was created independently. Humans were created roughly 6000 years ago. But the other species were created according to an old-earth model based on what modern science claims about their age. Technically their view is everything was created incrementally in a way that takes causality into account. The atmosphere was prepared for those who would breathe. Vegetation was prepared for those who would eat plants. Species died out naturally to allow for a more peaceful existence for future species yet to be created.

They appeal to the appearance of design in nature, claiming it is too precise to be the result of natural selection.

I hope this answers your question.

Thanks for clarifying

Segev Moran · May 8, 2018

NathantheProfit said:
From what I know, each species was created independently. Humans were created roughly 6000 years ago. But the other species were created according to an old-earth model based on what modern science claims about their age. Technically their view is everything was created incrementally in a way that takes causality into account. The atmosphere was prepared for those who would breathe. Vegetation was prepared for those who would eat plants. Species died out naturally to allow for a more peaceful existence for future species yet to be created.

They appeal to the appearance of design in nature, claiming it is too precise to be the result of natural selection.

I hope this answers your question.

This is the literal story of the creation.
Is there any room for interpretations?

The most important question you need to ask yourself, is are you willing to "let go" your current understandings of reality and replace them with another (that as i understand from your post, is not the one we actually believe [but wants to]).

There are many implications to such decisions, one of such might be to neglect many other assumptions about reality.

Are you parents people that can hold a conversation? (when it comes to "questioning" their beliefs i mean)
Do you think you can ask them questions and get answers without causing them to get angry or worse?

Thermos aquaticus · May 8, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
Evidence that’s been interpreted to reach an a priori conclusion.

Example?

I guess you believe that Dr. Stephen Meyer, Doug Axe, Jonathan Wells and others have all ‘completely abandoned reason and logic’, eh?

Yes.

You probably accept no evidence supporting paranormal activity, either. Go to the Paranormal board, and tell all those people they are wrong.

What evidence am I not accepting?

I've Sacrificed my belief in Evolution for Religion

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