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Why do Christians defend the horrendously brutal and genocidal God of the Old Testament?
- Thread starter Twilight Hue
- Start date
JustWondering
Jerk
But the god of the bible does demand complete obedience. In the OT and NT. Have you not read the bible?
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Well you could look at the qualities of God unempathetic, cold Indiscreet, selfish, egotistical to point out a few.
Essentially the qualities attributed to a psychopath or sociopath to a capital T.
A great link from Answers in G..... oh wait a minute, ....... not Genesis. No no no!
Almost slipped up there....heh
Answers in Reason...
Is God A Psychopath? | Answers In Reason
Why do Christians follow qualities attributed with a psychopath and insist on calling it good and righteous?
Reread my post you qouted. I am not into repeating myself to answer the same question over and over.
InChrist
Free4ever
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. My perspective is that the Bible, OT and NT, have proven to be more than flawed human inventions, ancient superstitious tales of ignorant people, or stories with no bearing on reality. In fact, the biblical scriptures haven proven to be historically and prophetically accurate which certainly has bearing on the reality of this world and demonstrates the supernatural hand of God as the One who inspired the writings.
Nuggets from Seeking and Finding God—Prophetic Proof
The eternal punishment is destruction of body and soul. If one is utterly destroyed, I don’t see how he could live then.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28
And that is why the options are eternal life, or death (destruction).
I dug this up - it is probably somewhere in the Aliens forum:
The violence in the world is really just us. We are to blame. Wisdom must catch up to technology, or we can’t make it, not with more E.T. help that they would be willing to grant if they are good, and not with less E.T. intervention if they are bad.
As per slaves in ancient times, Genesis 1:24 describes cattle, creeping things, and beasts. These beasts were somewhere along the ape-human line. I haven’t finished the Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond, but my hope is that these slaves weren’t along the consciousness or intelligence lines enough to suffer too much.
When we were created our planet had less gravity so we could be taller. That’s why say, on the Sistine Chapel, the angel/cherubims look like kids (they are smaller than us but not kids). So we had more brain capacity and in Genesis 1:26 they made us smarter than themselves. Image could mean greater. The creators loved this, but those on their home planet worried.
Then there was the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, or science in the French Bible (Genesis 2:17). We became too powerful so they tried to wipe us out with the flood. Yes, I know Jeremiah Sitchin says that happened naturally and the ark was a submarine. After wiping us out and learning of Noah, they those on the home planet decided they just wanted to control us, because man wants to be scientific (Genesis 8:21). Later they would start an experiment where they would have prophets hint at things to carry proof of themselves later on and help us safely but slowly progress. It’s like an insect; at each level of technology you grow it in before you can progress, and that is the only way you can survive.
After the flood, there was almost no violence perpetrated by E.T.s. They just wanted to gradually let us grow until we loved them and ourselves. Yes, at the beginning of Exodus, they freed the Hebrews from Pharaoh. They had to. The Hebrews were to live together since they were the smartest and therefore the most valuable to keep around. At the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:9) Jews were too aggressive and at Sodom and Gomorrah got nuked (Genesis 19:24,26,28) but everyone in the cities were warned to flee and flee quickly (Genesis 19:12,13,17). In Jericho the Israelites didn’t know what they were doing, I think. In subsequent wars, the defenders could flee. For instance, when it rained down stuff from the sky in Joshua 10, the defenders could look up and avoid it, I think, or that’s my interpretation of what to glean from it. In the last war, I think they could have simply ran away. This war is also in Joshua 10. The Jews had to be protected. There was also colonization, or getting sacrifices of some things, but it was in return for protection. But eventually, Yahweh laid off of humanity.
The beast in Revelations 13:8 is nuclear power for murderous purposes. It is the number of man, 666 generations from the first man, when man finally had his life in his own hands. Revelations 16:8,20 and 21 confirm this. In the Book of Revelations all the problems are caused by our own humanity!
Diseases, I guess, were either not in the creators’ control, or they helped us gain technology and love in order to fight them.
Buddhism suggests that as a society, we climb but sometimes fall down and we need to climb again or stay up there.
The violence in the world, then, is really just us. We are to blame. Wisdom must catch up to technology, or we can’t make it, not with more E.T. help that they would be willing to grant, and not with less E.T. intervention.
The violence in the world is really just us. We are to blame. Wisdom must catch up to technology, or we can’t make it, not with more E.T. help that they would be willing to grant if they are good, and not with less E.T. intervention if they are bad.
As per slaves in ancient times, Genesis 1:24 describes cattle, creeping things, and beasts. These beasts were somewhere along the ape-human line. I haven’t finished the Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond, but my hope is that these slaves weren’t along the consciousness or intelligence lines enough to suffer too much.
When we were created our planet had less gravity so we could be taller. That’s why say, on the Sistine Chapel, the angel/cherubims look like kids (they are smaller than us but not kids). So we had more brain capacity and in Genesis 1:26 they made us smarter than themselves. Image could mean greater. The creators loved this, but those on their home planet worried.
Then there was the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, or science in the French Bible (Genesis 2:17). We became too powerful so they tried to wipe us out with the flood. Yes, I know Jeremiah Sitchin says that happened naturally and the ark was a submarine. After wiping us out and learning of Noah, they those on the home planet decided they just wanted to control us, because man wants to be scientific (Genesis 8:21). Later they would start an experiment where they would have prophets hint at things to carry proof of themselves later on and help us safely but slowly progress. It’s like an insect; at each level of technology you grow it in before you can progress, and that is the only way you can survive.
After the flood, there was almost no violence perpetrated by E.T.s. They just wanted to gradually let us grow until we loved them and ourselves. Yes, at the beginning of Exodus, they freed the Hebrews from Pharaoh. They had to. The Hebrews were to live together since they were the smartest and therefore the most valuable to keep around. At the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:9) Jews were too aggressive and at Sodom and Gomorrah got nuked (Genesis 19:24,26,28) but everyone in the cities were warned to flee and flee quickly (Genesis 19:12,13,17). In Jericho the Israelites didn’t know what they were doing, I think. In subsequent wars, the defenders could flee. For instance, when it rained down stuff from the sky in Joshua 10, the defenders could look up and avoid it, I think, or that’s my interpretation of what to glean from it. In the last war, I think they could have simply ran away. This war is also in Joshua 10. The Jews had to be protected. There was also colonization, or getting sacrifices of some things, but it was in return for protection. But eventually, Yahweh laid off of humanity.
The beast in Revelations 13:8 is nuclear power for murderous purposes. It is the number of man, 666 generations from the first man, when man finally had his life in his own hands. Revelations 16:8,20 and 21 confirm this. In the Book of Revelations all the problems are caused by our own humanity!
Diseases, I guess, were either not in the creators’ control, or they helped us gain technology and love in order to fight them.
Buddhism suggests that as a society, we climb but sometimes fall down and we need to climb again or stay up there.
The violence in the world, then, is really just us. We are to blame. Wisdom must catch up to technology, or we can’t make it, not with more E.T. help that they would be willing to grant, and not with less E.T. intervention.
TheBannerofHomuraAkemi
Active Member
When I was younger I used to view God as a just and righteous figure that had no faults. But now that I am older I kind of see it in a different light.
Today I think God is neither evil or good. God is what God needs to be at that moment. If he needs to be cruel unjust genocidal diety as he was towards the philistines then so be it. If he wants to be a protecting authority towards the Hebrew people so be it. That his choice and we could judge his actions whether or not there good or evil, but it's moot point. Because we don't have the authority to condemn God for his actions because we hold no power over God.
But if I was forced to give an answer to justify his reasoning maybe it for the blame doesn't fall on us? I mean if he does all the horrible stuff then were not guilty of it right? Like killing in his name. Instead of blaming the people doing the killing instead we blame God for demanding they go in and kill everyone in his name.
Buddha Dharma
Dharma Practitioner
Objection! We always have the right to condemn bad leadership and oversight. Authority is another matter, but human history suggests authoritarianism should not stop us from questioning. If humans made a sentient android and mistreated it- I would expect that being to criticize us as unfair, heartless, and cruel.
TheBannerofHomuraAkemi
Active Member
Oh I'm not saying that we don't have the right to condemn him, but there is not much we could do to change his opinion or actions. I mean we could spend all night talking about this, but in the end neither me or you have the power to stop God. And I think if God valued our opinion on this matter he would have changed his behavior yet he still plans to burn the world away and create it new.
Buddha Dharma
Dharma Practitioner
Your god sure seems to be taking it's sweet time. 2000 years of "any day now"
And I can't believe that that completely invented eisegis (because it sure as poop ain't in the Bible!) would be considered an "explanation" by anyone. You might as well have said Balaam's donkey talked because it was constipated -- there's equal (lack of) evidence for both "explanations."
LoLz
What happens when your running as fast as you can and you look back?
You either slow down, or stop moving completely to look back at what is happening. Especially if it's the mass destruction of a city.
It is for this reason she could not escape the danger, because everyone else who did not slowdown or stop to look back was fine.
I can't believe I actually had to explain this to someone who claims to be intelligent.
Okay, then very simply, demonstrate a "soul" to me. You know, something "living" that has no body. Just one single one that you can personally put on evidence will do.
Just one. A mere single soul out of all the 100 billion people who have ever lived or are still living -- show me that non-corporeal "soul" and I will believe. You have my word.
An explanation of what? Do you even know what you are talking about anymore? Now the deer caught in headlights analogy fits. LoLz
An "explanation" of your deliberate attempt to turn the phrase "looked back" into "she stopped and hung around for long enough that everybody else in the party was able to get away from this monstrous calamity unscathed, while still noticing that she was turned into a pillar of salt."
All that, while at the very same time you ignore the next two verses, which say: "
19:27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:
19:28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace."
So clearly, by the evidence presented by the Bible itself, they were still, thus long after the event, within sight of the destruction. So the Bible itself presents evidence that nobody else was significantly farther away.
You can "read in" (that's what eisegesis means) whatever you like. But I am actually quite a good exegete (and have the university prof's commentary to attest to that, and he was a Catholic priest), and I can easily see that you are making a whole lot of stuff up out of whole cloth -- with no other motivation than "make it fit!"
God does not instruct, as in make, people do anything. He gave us the ability to choose for our selves what to do. Those evil and horrible things that people do, do it for self serving reason claiming God told them to do it. And just remember, God did not write the Biblical scriptures. Man did and in most cases they wrote literal truths as they had been passed down from one generation to another.
Having said that there are occasions where the scribe inserts their own views into the mix. Most likely, if what you read is contrary to God's teachings, God did not say/write it.
at least as I see it
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Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
I feel here are my choices:
1. Go to heaven. Cool!
2. Go to hell. Not afraid of Satan. Cool!
3. End completely. Not around to care. Cool!
Yeah, His morality changes with the winds.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Like I said you have no understanding, why God did certain things in the old testament.
Maybe before you go criticizing the old testament, at lease get an understanding, why God did certain things in the old testament, before you go criticizing.
Do we know all,there is to know to be able to make such a statement? What is a best universe? We are only one planet in it and there is so much unexplored and unknown that I don’t think we are in a position to make such a call.
74x12
Well-Known Member
I don't believe there is such a huge difference. The message is the same. Jesus said the whole of the Law and prophets hang on two commandments. Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. This hasn't changed.
However, the old Covenant was written as a secular and religious Law for a physical bronze age civilization. So a society that had to deal with facts of life for the bronze age. Such as constant warfare and slavery. Apparently God wasn't trying to overthrow all of society with some kind of revolution. IMO, He obviously wanted to draw people to knowledge and communion with Himself. The people had a hard enough time accepting the idea that they were supposed to only serve one God. In fact they transgressed this basic law over and over. God was working with the society of the time rather than upending everything. As for warfare in the bronze age. The Iliad should give us a good idea of what such warfare was all about. The Israelites would have been destroyed very fast if they did not have a strong stance in warfare.
On the other hand the new Covenant is written to a spiritual nation not a physical one. There is not any need for many of the old rules and laws which governed the rules of an entire earthly society. Our warfare is spiritual and not physical because we are a spiritual nation rather than a physical one. Jesus claimed that if His kingdom was of this world then His servants would fight. (John 18:36) So, Jesus never condemns fighting in defense of one's country or in His specific case: king.
No offense. I don't know what you're saying here. Something about allegories? Can you explain this?
God is exactly the same in both Testaments. Not sure where you get the idea He's changed. Perhaps give me a specific example of what you believe is a difference.
God never lied.
But, I respectfully disagree. I can see how you would make that statement, but on the other hand I see so many similarities that it must be quite a coincidence.
It's an actual vision recorded and seems to be expounding further the apocalyptic visions of Daniel the prophet.
Everything God did was for a purpose and was justified. I don't really follow your reasoning here ... War is brutal business. The old Covenant dealt with warfare on a consistent basis. Most of Israel's neighbors were similar to the people in the Iliad. They liked fighting. They liked killing, pillaging etc. Live by the sword and rule by the sword. That was the game kings played. War was an absolute fact of life for the Israelites if they wanted to remain free or even alive. Warfare was heavily tied in with religion because in those days it was generally believed by everyone that any battle's outcome was by the decision of God or the gods.
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