Why do Christians defend the horrendously brutal and genocidal God of the Old Testament?

[Enoch07]

I can get a pretty good idea what the early Catholic Church would have done to me had I asked these questions.

Anyways what's the straw man here?

Even though you have a valid point about The Catholic Church, which I wont deny, it was not the premise of your original argument though.

The strawman is:

The god of the Old Testament is evil depraved and vicious demanding complete subjugation.

If God did indeed demand subjugation. He would not allow you to form this opinion. You would have been struck dead before you could post it. Considering this has not happened your premise unravels itself immediately.

You are allowed to form this opinion and scream it from the rooftops with all of your might though. So that proves God does not demand complete subjugation.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'll start off with this rather bizarre response from one of our favorite apologists on the subject of an evil God, Answers in Genesis.


https://answersingenesis.org/who-is...ld-testament-harsh-brutal-and-downright-evil/

An initial response to this claim can simply be, “How can the atheist or non-Christian say God is harsh, brutal, and evil when they deny the Bible, the very book that defines harsh, brutal, and evil?” Even further, in atheistic, materialistic, and evolutionary worldviews, such things are neither right nor wrong because there is no God in their view to establish what is right or wrong. The same people who profess to believe in a naturalistic view where animals rape, murder, and eat their own kind are those who attack the loving God of the Bible and try to call Him evil (Isaiah 5:20).

Other than a paragraph of total wrongness, it's sometimes scary wondering what some of these people would do if they ever suddenly become convinced god doesn't exist. It's not like they're putting much thought into things like social responsibility, mutual cooperation and respect, or anything else remotely utilitarian as reason enough.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Even though you have a valid point about The Catholic Church, which I wont deny, it was not the premise of your original argument though.

The strawman is:



If God did indeed demand subjugation. He would not allow you to form this opinion. You would have been struck dead before you could post it. Considering this has not happened your premise unravels itself immediately.

You are allowed to form this opinion and scream it from the rooftops with all of your might though. So that proves God does not demand complete subjugation.

Yet in the Old Testament .........

Are you still talking about the same God here?

No straw man exists in the debate.

It's clear of the Old Testament God was evil depraved and vicious given what the standards of goodness and righteousness are purported to be by Christians.

If a person is going to defend the Old Testament God, then goodness and righteousness definitely doesn't apply through virtue of actions.

 

[Enoch07]

No straw man exists in the debate

Your premise is the strawman. A terrible one at that that instantly unravels itself.

The rest of your argument which hinges on this false premise has no legs to stand on.

Other than that all is left is your opinion. Which is fine, but kinda pointless to debate.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Your premise is the strawman. A terrible one at that that instantly unravels itself.

There is no strawman, because god does demand it. Up to the point of killing apostates and those who worship other gods. For eternity, god's judgement is very much "my way or the highway," making it a rather forced situation if you don't want to roast forever. Or death. Or darkness. Christians themselves aren't too clear about this one or in unanimous decision.

 

[Enoch07]

There is no strawman, because god does demand it. Up to the point of killing apostates and those who worship other gods. For eternity, god's judgement is very much "my way or the highway," making it a rather forced situation if you don't want to roast forever. Or death. Or darkness. Christians themselves aren't too clear about this one or in unanimous decision.

But you are alive and do not worhsip. The premise does not hold true.

Hence the strawman.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But you are alive and do not worhsip.

I know. Seems he's gotten impotent over the years. Going from turning someone into a pillar of salt over petty disobedience to doing nothing.

The premise does not hold true.

Then what's with the "do it my way or I'll burn you up?"

 

[Enoch07]

I know. Seems he's gotten impotent over the years. Going from turning someone into a pillar of salt over petty disobedience to doing nothing.

Then what's with the "do it my way or I'll burn you up?"

He didn't turn her into a pillar of salt of disobeying. He told them not to look back because it was dangerous. She looked back and the danger got her. She was not punished.

If I tell you to not stand on railroad track because it's dangerous. And then you die because you got hit by a train. The fault is on you for not listening. I warned you of the dangers on being on a railroad track. I cannot force you to get away from the tracks. That choice was yours to make.

 

[Kenny]

Ken, I'm disappointed. From the past, I recall that you are at least capable of some sort of argument, yet in this thread, all of your posts have been simple denials, with no thought behind them at all.

It is because I know that, in this case, nothing I say will really make any difference. Don't want to waste time on this one.

See? I gave you an explanation because you are worth it!!

 

[Jainarayan]

"God made the world. He gets to make the rules!"

Recently seen on a board outside a Baptist Church in my town.

The scary part is how those rules are interpreted and enforced by his followers. Therein lie the reasons for so many atrocities committed in God’s name.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Take the Amalekites for example. They waged terrorism against innocent Jews for 500 years. Who would lift a finger in defense of Isis today who burn people alive?

There’s Sodom and Jericho and the Ark but the bottom line is evil behaviour became dominant. We all agree in destroying a Hitler or an Osama Bin Ladin, not an eyelid bat.

Never just accept military propaganda blindly. Remember, Hebrews swept in and started killing people and taking lands that didn't belong to them. So, naturally, the natives were the evil ones for *gasp* wanting to keep their stuff and stay alive.

And our country MADE Osama Bin Ladin. We were for him before we were against him. Most of our monsters we created ourselves.

You could read the scriptures and sincerely ask God to clear up all these questions and these things you find confusing and contradictory.

Do you want Him to "clear things up" or do you want Him to explain Himself? In other words, are you satisfied with excuse making or do you want real answers?

A tribe of Indians lives nearby and every few days they come galloping up and shoot at your family.

Do you ever wonder WHY they are? Like, before you built your sod house there, they were there? Like, you traded blankets to them infected with God knows what? Like, they were here before Europeans and this country didn't have the desire to grant them citizenship until the 20th century? Like, their kids were kidnapped or killed for following their religion or speaking their language? Would you like others to do that to YOU?

Would you just sit around and do nothing? Or would you be a bit angry?

If you didn't mind terrorizing them, I doubt you'd be all that bothered. You can always make more kids, after all.

If you got your hands on one of the Indians would you treat him kindly or might you be a little harsh and brutal?

You ... are ... on ... their ... land ... and ... taking ... their ... stuff.

I've been to locations along the Trail of Tears. I have ancestors who lived in Oklahoma because of it. I challenge you to attempt to see things through their eyes and still think they were monsters.

But let's face it: the bible is not known for promoting empathy unless it's convenient and it has instructed a great many people.

 

[InChrist]

The scary part is how those rules are interpreted and enforced by his followers. Therein lie the reasons for so many atrocities committed in God’s name.

That is the scary part, but Jesus certainly knew that many would misrepresent Him...And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:23). Atrocities done in God's name simply prove that many are even willing to use God for their own wicked ends and also the point of the gospel ...that all are sinners (Romans 3:23) and in need of a Savior (1 John 3:4-5). But the validity of Christianity does not rest on sinful men but rather on the perfection of Jesus Christ alone (Heb. 7:26; 1 Pet. 2:22).

 

[Buddha Dharma]

The god of the Old Testament is evil depraved and vicious demanding complete subjugation.

The God of the New Testament isn't much nicer...

 

[Buddha Dharma]

I consider the god of the Christian Bible to be (arguably) the most anti-human character in all of history and fiction.

As do I. The Bible is called a love story, but I can envision few things more hateful. The Bible is a hate story about a deity that slowly comes to despise his creation because of his mess ups in the garden. It's a story of that deity repeatedly taking his anger and frustration out on people.

 

[Grandliseur]

The god of the Old Testament is evil depraved and vicious demanding complete subjugation.

It is nice to see how unbiased you are.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The god of the Old Testament is evil depraved and vicious demanding complete subjugation.

Why do Christians even attempt to defend this, and then further say God is always good and righteous when in fact much of the Old Testament is choc full of God's actions and deeds that point to the extreme opposite of what good and righteousness is supposed to be?

I'll start off with this rather bizarre response from one of our favorite apologists on the subject of an evil God, Answers in Genesis.


Isn’t the God of the Old Testament Harsh, Brutal, Downright Evil?

Because people like yourself have no understanding what the old testament is really about. Why God in the old testament had certain people put to death.

 

[Sleeppy]

All goes back to AUTOLATRY. It's much easier to worship what is known, which is self/man.

 

[Kenny]

Your premise is the strawman. A terrible one at that that instantly unravels itself.

The rest of your argument which hinges on this false premise has no legs to stand on.

Other than that all is left is your opinion. Which is fine, but kinda pointless to debate.

This is the crux of his post. He basically just placed his opinion which is pointless to debate. Well said.

 

[sealchan]

The god of the Old Testament is evil depraved and vicious demanding complete subjugation.

Why do Christians even attempt to defend this, and then further say God is always good and righteous when in fact much of the Old Testament is choc full of God's actions and deeds that point to the extreme opposite of what good and righteousness is supposed to be?

I'll start off with this rather bizarre response from one of our favorite apologists on the subject of an evil God, Answers in Genesis.


Isn’t the God of the Old Testament Harsh, Brutal, Downright Evil?

I haven't read too many apologists but I find myself in the role of being one to a certain extent. However, I put God into the category of a moral being that has created an amoral creation. His intent is to try and get us to be moral in an amoral world.

God's creation (for which He is ultimately responsible (who else would keep His creation's dog off of the lawn of neighboring God's lawns?)) is a lot like us...we have our moral intents of which we often fall short. This makes us fundamentally amoral beings with an overlay of morality. This is true whether you are a believer or not.

Nature is the same. We see examples in social animal behavior and even in systemic bio-systems of behavior analogous to moral and immoral actions. We typically demote immoral to amoral when we understand that the behavior in question is done with a limited level of consciousness and forethought.

We are of nature. We are amoral beings with an overlay of moral intent. The authors of Genesis have described this reality but the author(s) of Job have addressed it head on as an issue with respect to our understanding of God's morality. It is fundamentally a mystery.

Now when God or His representatives do something wholesale nasty against innocent people (children should be generally assumed to be innocent), we get an unpleasant taste of that immorality. God let's these things happen.

When nature comes in and destroys people, God is seen as "responsible" but He is also excused in one way or another by the story-teller. For the authors of the Genesis this is as far as they will go in trying to explain this mystery. Job answers the mystery with, "okay you create a Universe that is moral...then you can talk" sort of challenge. Since we can't create like God I guess we will have to keep an open mind that natural and man-made cruelty is not only God-given but necessary in a reality that also boasts of morality.

Perhaps this is basic Taoism...what is one thing without its opposite? Can there be morality without immorality? Light without darkness? It would seem that there is no rational way to say yes to this question and so we have a mystery of our experience...one which is true for believer or non-believer.

This is God's excuse and for the atheist, they would be somewhat hypocritical to blame a believer's understanding of God and not acknowledge a plain fact of our experience of humanity and nature as capable of great evil.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Because people like yourself have no understanding what the old testament is really about. Why God in the old testament had certain people put to death.

Can't explain the children then?

Ok I figured God must of reasoned it as acceptable collateral damage.

Then again all that is still good and righteous. It's God after all.

You're absolutely 100% right and I agree with you, I have no understanding of any of this. Not the text mind you, it's Christians themselves who keep saying God is good and righteous after reading all of it.

Christians need some serious direction as to what gets determined as being good and righteous because the Old Testament God is not it.