The State of Israel

Sundance · Jul 8, 2017

While I typically manage to shrug my shoulders at political happenings, this issue I do happen to have an opinion on. While a two-state plan is ideal (I think, for the sake of peace), it's quite unrealistic. Resulting from that, I personally believe that Jewish people should have their own State. Absolutely. My own country was among the very first to recognize Israel as an independent nation.

I understand that there are many different people who feel different ways. Israeli, Palestinian, or anyone else.

The State of Israel: yea or nay?

Sunstone · Jul 8, 2017

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: I favor a two state solution, although I am not optimistic of seeing one anytime soon. If I had to pick between Israel and a Palestinian state, I'd pick Israel because I believe Israel is overall more in line with Western values than are the Palestinians. But I would not favor an Israel that expelled or oppressed it's non-Jewish citizens. And I see the Occupation as an evil.

The Emperor of Mankind · Jul 8, 2017

If someone put a gun to my head and said they would pull the trigger if I didn't pick one side or the other... I'd pick Israel over Palestine.

While I'd like to see a two-state solution implemented, I really can't see one being achieved; there's too much blood spilled and too much anti-Zionist & anti-Jewish sentiment in the Muslim world to allow a two-state solution to work. Neither side is willing to disarm and talk realistically to the other.

Sundance · Jul 8, 2017

A Greased Scotsman said:
If someone put a gun to my head and said they would pull the trigger if I didn't pick one side or the other... I'd pick Israel over Palestine.

While I'd like to see a two-state solution implemented, I really can't see one being achieved; there's too much blood spilled and too much anti-Zionist & anti-Jewish sentiment in the Muslim world to allow a two-state solution to work. Neither side is willing to disarm and talk realistically to the other.

I absolutely agree with you. Unfortunately, Scots, this second paragraph is all too true. All too accurate.

Sunstone · Jul 8, 2017

I think a two state solution is still possible, but will take extraordinary means to implement -- and we might not see it implemented in our life times.

Revoltingest · Jul 8, 2017

I'm pro-2-state because it is the pro-peace choice.

Jayhawker Soule · Jul 8, 2017

Sartre said:
I see the two state solution as a sort of Utopian appeal to moderation.

You mean as opposed to an appeal to extermination.

Sartre said:
Pro-palestine.

And how would you suggest effecting the extermination of Israel?

Sartre said:
However could change my opinion if zionists address reconciliation and race in their own nation.

But you are clearly less concerned about matters of reconciliation and antisemitism within the occupied territories.

Sartre said:
I probably would not support a Palestinian movement if it was traditionally Islamist.

What does "traditionally Islamist" mean?

columbus · Jul 8, 2017

Jayhawker Soule said:
How would you suggest effecting the extermination of Israel?

As far as I am concerned, they could all move here to Indiana. Over all, as a group, I find Jewish people are good neighbors. Some better than others, of course. But generally good people to have in the community.
Tom

Sunstone · Jul 8, 2017

columbus said:
As far as I am concerned, they could all move here to Indiana. Over all, as a group, I find Jewish people are good neighbors. Some better than others, of course. But generally good people to have in the community.
Tom

I call dibs on Colorado.

Seriously, I've met Jews who are just as vile as anyone else on this planet, but of the people I've met who I have judged to be outstanding human beings, somewhat more than a fair share of them have been Jews.

Most likely, though, that's because I'm working from a non-representative, relatively small sample. Although, I much prefer to think it's because my inspiring personality brings out the best in people, especially Jews. Yeah, I'll go with the latter.

columbus · Jul 8, 2017

Sunstone said:
I call dibs on Colorado.

Do you think Colorado will give them the kind of healthcare system that Israelis have become accustomed to?
I know Indiana won't, unless the Jewish people vote more effectively than the rest of the population does.
Tom

Sunstone · Jul 8, 2017

columbus said:
Do you think Colorado will give them the kind of healthcare system that Israelis have become accustomed to?
I know Indiana won't, unless the Jewish people vote more effectively than the rest of the population does.
Tom

Politically, Jewish people tend to lean left, so far as I've been told. I put it down to their studying all those subversive ideas found in Isaiah and other insidious literature. So, yeah, they could swing the balance in Indiana or Colorado.

sun rise · Jul 8, 2017

Sunstone said:
Politically, Jewish people tend to lean left, so far as I've been told. I put it down to their studying all those subversive ideas found in Isaiah and other insidious literature. So, yeah, they could swing the balance in Indiana or Colorado.

Not in Israel. There are fanatics in the settlement community who I would call terrorists if perhaps not as actively spreading terror as the Islamic fanatics.

Being Jewish, I rooted for Israel but stopped a while ago when Israel started acting like a brutal occupying power treating the Palestinians as dirt. Now a "pox on both their houses". And I don't see a solution anytime soon outside of an unholy bloodbath which is always possible.

This Palestinian village had solar power — until Israeli soldiers took it away was the latest story that bugged me. Assuming the installation did not indeed have the right permits, a brutal military operation destroying gear should not have happened. Israel could and should have taken a less jackbooted approach.

Sunstone · Jul 8, 2017

sunrise123 said:
Not in Israel. There are fanatics in the settlement community who I would call terrorists if perhaps not as actively spreading terror as the Islamic fanatics.

Being Jewish, I rooted for Israel but stopped a while ago when Israel started acting like a brutal occupying power treating the Palestinians as dirt. Now a "pox on both their houses". And I don't see a solution anytime soon outside of an unholy bloodbath which is always possible.

This Palestinian village had solar power — until Israeli soldiers took it away was the latest story that bugged me. Assuming the installation did not indeed have the right permits, a brutal military operation destroying gear should not have happened. Israel could and should have taken a less jackbooted approach.

Do you think Israeli politics can be turned around?

sun rise · Jul 8, 2017

Sunstone said:
Do you think Israeli politics can be turned around?

If the Israeli people decide to do so just like the politics in the USA can be turned around. I'm hopeful but not optimistic in the short term.

LuisDantas · Jul 9, 2017

I voted pro-Israel, despite not favoring stateship as such (I think of nations as an unavoidably destructive idea).

It seems to me that there is no true political solution, though. Not at the decision-making level, at least. Any true solutions would have to deal directly with the anti-zionistic and anti-Jewish venom that has become so common among Palestinians.

And that makes me very pessimistic indeed about the whole matter.

Saint Frankenstein · Jul 9, 2017

None of the above. I think that area should be a UN protectorate since they just can't get along.

Jayhawker Soule · Jul 9, 2017

Sartre said:
Israel is exterminating Palestinians.

Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis nor your hypocritical talk of reconciliation are served by you wallowing in this type of hateful and ignorant hyperbole.

Ponder This · Jul 20, 2017

The One-State solution only works if both groups can come together in a common cause. If someone can articulate what that common cause is, please do so. This common cause would be defining for the nation.

Otherwise, there is simply going to continue to be problems, conflict, misery, suffering, etc.

MrMrdevincamus · Aug 17, 2017

I am rabidly pro one state Israel, and not simply for religious grounds. However saying that, biblical prophesy tells me that Israel will agree to a two state cure for the Palestinian problem. Sadly the two state solution will be will be the beginning of the final prophesies that will fast track the way for the antichrist. In addition to Israel agreeing to a two state system it will also sign faux 'peace treaty' brokered by an individual with supernatural and natural powers, by natural powers think Bill Clinton charisma times a million. (also fast track means events will come and pass very quickly compared to the 2000+ years it has took to come to this point, ie Israel becoming a state which was also prophesied thousands of years ago). After the peace treaty and two state Israel comes to pass another set of events will happen before the Antichrist and the false prophet will lead an army in an action called Armageddon.

peace ~

; {>

Flankerl · Aug 17, 2017

Sartre said:
Israel is exterminating Palestinians.

So looking at the demographic numbers it only makes sense that "extermination" in this case means that Israel forces them to multiply.

Sartre said:
Doesn't seem fair to say that an occupied territory should have to wait for peace whilst being exterminated.

Usually in the world you try to reach peace when you've lost the war you started.
The Germans did so even though their regime was willing to use Guerilla tactics to murder as many enemy people as possible.
But that didn't happen. The people simply had enough. And so they got peace.
First under supervision, then less and less supervision.

And today they are free.

So I guess you would've been in favour for them to fight on. A bit weird for a Communist but what do I know.

Sartre said:
What Reconciliation would you say that Palestine owes to Israel and Israli people?

So you think that the Palestinians haven't done stuff that warrant reconciliation? Its only the Israelis doing bad stuff?

Great.

Sartre said:
The moment the movement starts to look like typical caliphates I'm out.

So like Gaza.
You realise that Hamas would win free elections in the West Bank?

Not that these elections will ever happen.

Ponder This said:
The One-State solution only works

Let me stop you right there, it can't work.
The one state solution (without throwing out the majority of either groups) is asking for "civil war".

The State of Israel

Which are you?

Pro-Israeli

Pro-Palestinian

In favor of a two-state system

No opinion

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