Why would a god need middlemen?

JustWondering · Jun 8, 2017

Kemosloby said:
Why did God let Adam name the animals? God could have named the animals and told Adam what their names were. Interaction between God and man seems to please God, so why not have middlemen?

He might even like it more since you don't like it that way.

So to sum up, you'd belief someone if they said they were talking on god's behalf. Do you question anything about your religion or do you blindly believe/follow everything it claims/demands?

JustWondering · Jun 8, 2017

Carlita said:
God doesn't need middlemen. Men make middlemen to understand god because it lets them see god as a reflection of themselves and what they best understand. Unless you believe in god and can let us know how god used middlemen, it all comes from man. The other way around, really.

Though I see it in a positive light. I thought the thread would be more thought provoking.

As far as I can tell humanity creates their gods. All the god concepts I've heard of are fictional.

JustWondering · Jun 8, 2017

bobhikes said:
For God faith is important and personal choice. If God came down and spoke directly to you, you wouldn't need faith and you wouldn't have choice.

The bible doesn't support your claims. There are multiple characters in the bible that spoke directly to god and STILL disobeyed him, so they still had a choice. Secondly, where in the bible does god say he values freewill? I know of at least one part in the bible were god took away someone's freewill. The bible is full of stories that make it clear god wants our MINDLESS and BLIND obedience.

JustWondering · Jun 8, 2017

Nakosis said:
Probably because God doesn't exist.

I don't however believe they were con artists. I think most believe they were actually spokesmen for God. BTW men? Why no spokeswomen?

Maybe women folks are less filled with their own self-rightness...

If a person has even a casual beliefs in gods, demons, aliens, the subconscious mind is quite capable of providing a pretty realistic experience that can be interpreted to support that belief.

So you don't think Joseph Smith for example was a conman, he really believed everything he told people?

princessarachne · Jun 8, 2017

@JustWondering Lol you just jumped right over my comments xD

JustWondering · Jun 8, 2017

princessarachne said:
For the most part, they are (IMO).

I think that God doesn't need a middle man. They (God) speak to us indirectly through natural phenomena (The stars and planets, for example). When they speak through people, there is a chance of corruption through one's ego-self, or the desire for fame and power. This could be why some cult leaders originally had good ideas but later ended up doing horrible things.

But only Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Bahai, and Islam are revealed. Even Christianity is questionable because at one point it was a mystery religion and people were called to find God on their own. It was more like a theistic Buddhism than it was the Christianity we see today. We can thank the church for burning all the real Christians and instituting a corrupt organization in their place.

In my experience, God is more than happy to talk to you if you approach them with respect and dignity. Doing that means being kind to the God in the earth, the God in all life, and the God in yourself. Think about it. If someone was really abusive and said all kinds of nasty things to you, would you want to talk to them or avoid them?

This is why, I think, Atheists can't "see" God for themselves. It's not because they believe or don't believe, it's because of what they say and do. (I was raised in an anti-religious household and every atheist I knew was super hateful)

As a Gnostic, I really believe the only way to answer theological questions is to observe spiritual phenomena, reserving judgement and dogma, and come up with an explanation. Not everyone is going to agree, obviously, but our sense of logic and cognitive ability is incredibly weak compared to the vast array of spiritual beings I have encountered. Not everyone is going to understand this.

Many ardent atheists I know are not arrogant but spiritually young. It takes many lifetimes to pull your head out of MEST (Matter, Energy, Space-time) and see the spiritual world. Just as a two-year-old is mentally incapable of understanding calculus, spiritually young people are incapable of understanding spirit.

TL;DR: You need to live many times to answer this question, or any question you have about spirituality. No matter how eloquently someone explains the answer to you, it is unlikely that you will understand or agree because you are likely too spiritually young.

I don't attribute anything in the universe to anything but nature. There is zero evidence to support the mystical/spiritual world you so much WANT to believe in.

I didn't become an atheist because of some emotional event. It was a gradual process were I slowly came to the realization that it was all just made up. I grew up in a household were we rarely went to church. So I wasn't heavily indoctrinated in my youth. The most hateful people I've met have been Christians.

I'm not a fan of mystical thinking and have no intention of entertaining or encouraging it. It shuts down peoples ability to reason. I've seen it in RL and on internet forums. Humanity is irrational and self destructive enough already. We need to grow up as a species and leave the fairy tales and superstitions of our ancient, ignorant ancestors where they belong, in the past.

princessarachne · Jun 8, 2017

JustWondering said:
I don't attribute anything in the universe to anything but nature. There is zero evidence to support the mystical/spiritual world you so much WANT to believe in.

I didn't become an atheist because of some emotional event. It was a gradual process were I slowly came to the realization that it was all just made up. I grew up in a household were we rarely went to church. So I wasn't heavily indoctrinated in my youth. The most hateful people I've met have been Christians.

I'm not a fan of mystical thinking and have no intention of entertaining or encouraging it. It shuts down peoples ability to reason. I've seen it in RL and on internet forums. Humanity is irrational and self destructive enough already. We need to grow up as a species and leave the fairy tales and superstitions of our ancient, ignorant ancestors where they belong, in the past.

Are you going to give me a logical argument or are you going to just insult religious people because it seems like you're exclusively doing the latter.

princessarachne · Jun 8, 2017

I actually should probably drop out of this conversation.

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast. ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them. under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

JustWondering · Jun 8, 2017

princessarachne said:
Are you going to give me a logical argument or are you going to just insult religious people because it seems like you're exclusively doing the latter.

I'm simply telling you how I see it from my perspective. I don't see any evidence to support any supernatural belief system. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it.

JustWondering · Jun 8, 2017

princessarachne said:
I actually should probably drop out of this conversation.

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast. ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them. under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

Weren't you just accusing me of insulting people? Act like a hypocrite much?

Twilight Hue · Jun 8, 2017

JustWondering said:
It seems obvious to me that revealed religions are bogus. Why would a god not announce it's desires and demands directly to the people? Isn't it blatantly obvious that anyone claiming to talk on behalf of a god is either insane or a con artist? If an old man who lived in your neighborhood disappeared for a week and then returned with a stone tablet he chiseled commandments into and claimed he spoke to god, would you believe him?

I'd mention he has a crummy god that couldn't provide anything lighter for him to carry his commandments around.

He's an old man for Christ's sake!

princessarachne · Jun 8, 2017

M'kay, first, I'm 17. You're probably somewhere in your 40s. Try not to be a butthead. I came here to learn, share, and discuss, not to rip and tear at other people's beliefs (or lack of them).

I had no intention of insulting you. If you took it that way, I apologize. The quote is a reminder for me not to throw the beauty of gnosis to those who will not understand, or worse, misconstrue it and use it as ammunition against me.

As for evidence, I have amassed a body of literature that contains anecdotal reports of past life memories (and their subsequent validations), records of astral projection and other "psychic" phenomena, studies concerning the efficacy of intercessory prayer and spiritual healing, and my own experiences with spiritual beings.

I would present it but I feel that you have no intention of learning new things or exploring these disciplines in any way. Normally I do not present such valuable information to the uninitiated in the first place, and certainly not to someone who has an anti-religious agenda. You may take that as me conceding, or you may not. I have no vested interest in your faith nor your salvation.

If we meet again, and you have perhaps quenched (or at least cooled) the fires of your anti-theistic passions, maybe we can discuss.

I get it. I really do. I was like you once.

arthra · Jun 8, 2017

JustWondering said:
It seems obvious to me that revealed religions are bogus. Why would a god not announce it's desires and demands directly to the people? Isn't it blatantly obvious that anyone claiming to talk on behalf of a god is either insane or a con artist? If an old man who lived in your neighborhood disappeared for a week and then returned with a stone tablet he chiseled commandments into and claimed he spoke to god, would you believe him?

Thanks for posting "Just Wondering"!

It isn't that God "needs" a middleman... We need a Middleman! A "Middleman" is a Mediator... an Educator!

When children need to learn a lesson they require a teacher who can explain things to them in a language they can understand.. As the children gain more knowledge their capacity increases and the teacher's role continues, this is essentially how we progress and this is also basically how the Divine educates and guides us along through progressive revelations.

God can inspire us through dreams, visions and enlightenment as well as through His Manifestations, Prophets and Messengers.

Tumah · Jun 8, 2017

JustWondering said:
If an old man who lived in your neighborhood disappeared for a week and then returned with a stone tablet he chiseled commandments into and claimed he spoke to god, would you believe him?

No, that's why the event was predicated by national prophetic revelation of the content of the tablets. So that he would be believed.

Kemosloby · Jun 9, 2017

Skwim said:
This kind of apologetic is the whole point. The Christian concept of god is so fraught with contradiction and incongruity that in order to justify it Christians are driven to say the darnedest things; some amusing, some beyond reason, and others outright silly.

.

Well it's good that you found an opportunity to use fraught in a sentence. So there's that.

Kemosloby · Jun 9, 2017

JustWondering said:
So to sum up, you'd belief someone if they said they were talking on god's behalf. Do you question anything about your religion or do you blindly believe/follow everything it claims/demands?

Even the "middlemen" speaking on Gods behalf don't spell anything out in any hardfast way. But if it get's to confusing you can always resort to it's summary, to "Love your neighbor as yourself". And having not blindly followed that general rule, hope for the religions claims about Gods mercy.

Tabu · Jun 9, 2017

JustWondering said:
It seems obvious to me that revealed religions are bogus. Why would a god not announce it's desires and demands directly to the people? Isn't it blatantly obvious that anyone claiming to talk on behalf of a god is either insane or a con artist? If an old man who lived in your neighborhood disappeared for a week and then returned with a stone tablet he chiseled commandments into and claimed he spoke to god, would you believe him?

From our (BK)understanding it is because God is spirit( atma , parmatma) , since speaking to people requires organs , God takes on loan the body of Brahma( Adam / The father of Mankind- Prajapita) and imparts all the knowledge to all the recipient souls once in a cycle and recreates the Golden age.
This knowledge is retained in the souls , and later when sorrow and devotion starts in the Copper age ( Dwapar yug) , the greater souls who had retained this knowledge help in establishing various religions ,i.e try to bring back dharma ( righteousness) with the knowledge retained in the souls.

DavidFirth · Jun 9, 2017

The Lord God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) does not speak directly with men because of His great holiness. No man can see God's face and live. Not sure why but this is so.

He chooses to speak through prophets. He certainly doesn't have to or need to.

A Vestigial Mote · Jun 9, 2017

Thief said:
so...once you are dead.....
the person I am posting to is no longer part of the creation?

Once the energy has dissipated from the body and the PHYSICAL MATTER that contains the combined memories, mental attributes, instinctual data and perceived "consciousness" has started to succumb to the bacterial break-down that it can no longer fend off? Yes... at that point what you consider "the person" is no longer a part of the "creation" (aka "universe" - which wasn't necessarily "created").

Kilgore Trout · Jun 9, 2017

Anytime there's a middleman involved, you're getting shafted somehow.

Why would a god need middlemen?

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