Why would a god need middlemen?

[JustWondering]

Like I said before, we take the word of eyewitnesses when sentencing someone on trial, so this is no different.


Yes, but mainly the words of Jesus in the NT when he is quoted.


This is why there needs to be multiple witnesses


Sending prophets is not coercive interference. You can choose to disbelieve. He sends prophets to all people. Only some of these prophets may become known internationally.


In the west, Jesus may be the only fully legit one. Muhammad is a lesser one. There may be others like Zoroaster that I don't know that much about. In India, there are multiple ones - Krishna, Rama, Ramakrishna, Ramanna Maharishi, Shirdi Sai Baba etc.

So what makes you think all these "messengers" are legit? What standards do you use to determine this?

 

[soulsurvivor]

So what makes you think all these "messengers" are legit? What standards do you use to determine this?

I have repeated these standards at least three times in this thread. You seem to have an attention span problem.

Just to repeat again - the message they bring, the miracles they have performed, and any personal experience about them/their influence over many people.

 

[JustWondering]

I have repeated these standards at least three times in this thread. You seem to have an attention span problem.

Just to repeat again - the message they bring, the miracles they have performed, and any personal experience about them/their influence over many people.

You're missing the point of my question. What standards do you use to determine the messages, miracles, and experiences themselves are actually legit? Do you just take EVERYTHING at face value without questioning any of it. You have not described the process you use to determine if something is actually legit. Could you provide an example, of a claim from Islam for instance, that you determined was legit and how you determined it was legit?

 

[soulsurvivor]

You're missing the point of my question. What standards do you use to determine the messages, miracles, and experiences themselves are actually legit? Do you just take EVERYTHING at face value without questioning any of it. You have not described the process you use to determine if something is actually legit. Could you provide an example, of a claim from Islam for instance, that you determined was legit and how you determined it was legit?

Again this has been explained multiple times in this thread (you really have a very short attention span). To repeat: The message has to be 'good', 'moral' and also extraordinary 'thou shalt not kill' does not count - everyone knows that. The miracles need to be several with many witnesses and personal experience is of course personal.

Islam was created among people who were uneducated, uncultured, practically barbarians - by its very existence at that time and place, it was extraordinary. It has reached such an enormous following that can only be thru personal experiences of many people. There are no major miracles of Muhammad that I know of, hence I call him a lesser prophet.

Jesus on the other hand has all three aspects - his message is unique and extraordinary, his miracles are many with many witnesses and many people have had personal experiences of his divinity.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If God were stand in front of you, how can you make a choice that he does not exist

Freewill, apparently.

It is only because he stays hidden that you have this choice

Absent parents might as well not exist.

It is only because he stays hidden that you have this choice - otherwise you would not be able say he does not exist (because you can see him). That is what freewill means - that you do not have to believe in a god/gods.

So, if some guy walks up to you and claims to be God, I expect you to worship him, for he has revealed himself and it's obvious then that he exists because he's standing right in front of you.

Humans, by a covenant signed off by God, can only be saved by faith.

God can save whomever He wishes. Not every hero or heroine in the bible was Jewish or Christian, which makes the claim that group identity is vital false.

My question for you is that do humans know everything in this universe.

Then the biblical authors don't either, though.

To put it another way, if hell exists (for the sake of argument), how can humans reach this truth before he sees it himself while ending up in hell?

Is Satan more powerful than God? Send me to hell! I don't care about the opinions of some stupid nobody.

The only way for humans to reach this truth is by believing those who know (i.e., those who are told by God in one way or another).

That's so blatantly self-serving to the "prophets", though. There is no real objective reason for God to speak to person A but can't seem to contact person B.

A house have a front door facing the front yard, and a back door facing the back yard. When you open the front door and walk out, you have 1/2 chance land on the front yard and 1/2 chance land on the back yard. Similarly, when you open the back door and walk out, you have 1/2 chance land on the front yard and 1/2 chance land on the backyard.

If you leave out the arbitrarily defined front door, you will 100% of the time end up in the front yard. If you leave out the arbitrarily defined back door, you will 100% of the time end up in the back yard. What determines "front" and "back"? What about side doors? Upper level balcony doors? Fake doors? Secret doors?

1. Gods send prophets as guides/teachers to teach us how the world works as well as how to live in it.

But what methods do we use to "judge a tree by its fruit" and verify what they are saying? When you start to realize that both Testaments are filled with propaganda (political, military, economic, theological, etc), you realize you should take all of it with a lot of grains of salt.

2,3,4 - I think I already said I don't believe in the OT, so it does not matter much what it says.

But the prophets are in there. The NT tries to claim legitimacy by *cough* "verifying" *cough* what those prophets said.

5. I think I already gave the criteria in a previous post - the message from the prophet, the miracles he performs and my personal experience.

But anyone, even according to Jesus, can perform miracles, so what difference does it make?

Its more logical to me that such an ability would exist to a degree in everyone.

Let's say that God can only communicate to humans in sound, making deaf people unable to "hear" the message. Is God unable, seriously, to make flash cards or something? Inability to detect a communication shouldn't be an excuse to an all-powerful God ...

If I personally witnessed someone who claimed to be a prophet perform miracles that would be extremely compelling.

We do things in the modern era that way exceeds anything done by "miracle workers" of ancient days. Our abilities make mockeries of every "curse" ever put in the bible.

God: Adam, you gonna have to work the fields, bro.
Adam: LOL, tractors.
God: Eve, you gonna hurt when that baby come out.
Eve: LOL, pain meds.
God: Guys, no tall buildings.
People: LOL, skyscrapers.
God: Guys, no understanding each other.
People: LOL, language classes and translation devices.
Jesus: I can make water into wine.
Scientists: We can email lemonade
Jesus: I can heal people.
Healthcare professionals everywhere: LOL. Besides, you won't even try to help Headless John. Meanwhile...

Like I said before, we take the word of eyewitnesses when sentencing someone on trial, so this is no different.

And science has also thrown a wrench into just how reliable witness testimony is, too. Besides, didn't Jesus get busted in part due to false witnesses? Kinda defeats your claim, right?

This is why there needs to be multiple witnesses

How does that help? From here:

His participants heard a story and had to tell the story to another person and so on, like a game of “Chinese Whispers”.

The story was a North American folk tale called “The War of the Ghosts”. When asked to recount the detail of the story, each person seemed to recall it in their own individual way.

With repeating telling, the passages became shorter, puzzling ideas were rationalized or omitted altogether and details changed to become more familiar or conventional.

For example, the information about the ghosts was omitted as it was difficult to explain, whilst participants frequently recalled the idea of “not going because he hadn’t told his parents where he was going” because that situation was more familiar to them. For this research Bartlett concluded that memory is not exact and is distorted by existing schema, or what we already know about the world.

It seems, therefore, that each of us ‘reconstructs’ our memories to conform to our personal beliefs about the world.

 

[Fool]

It seems obvious to me that revealed religions are bogus. Why would a god not announce it's desires and demands directly to the people? Isn't it blatantly obvious that anyone claiming to talk on behalf of a god is either insane or a con artist? If an old man who lived in your neighborhood disappeared for a week and then returned with a stone tablet he chiseled commandments into and claimed he spoke to god, would you believe him?

Love is ONE. there is no need for a middle person, or teacher. Love covers a multitude of sins.

The power to Love changes people.

And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”


there is no other love besides me because that illusion of other is the same as self.


Love is two bodies being of one mind. mencius


and the two friends shall become ONE, communion.

 

[JustWondering]

Jesus on the other hand has all three aspects - his message is unique and extraordinary

How so? I don't see anything particularly unique or extraordinary about his teachings.

his miracles are many with many witnesses

Only if you take the bible as being a reliable source of information, which I do not. How did you determine the bible is a legitimate source of information? Are there any sources outside the bible that back up that these miracles happened, or that Jesus as depicted in the bible even existed for that matter?

and many people have had personal experiences of his divinity.

The founders of Islam and Mormonism both had personal experiences of divinity that lead them to call the personal experiences of earlier people fake or at least misguided. So personal revelation/experiences do not seem to be a reliable source of information when concerning supernatural claims, which by their nature cannot be verified.

It seems to me that you want to believe what you believe more than you have any logical reason to.

 

[JustWondering]

Love is ONE. there is no need for a middle person, or teacher. Love covers a multitude of sins.

The power to Love changes people.

And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”


there is no other love besides me because that illusion of other is the same as self.


Love is two bodies being of one mind. mencius


and the two friends shall become ONE, communion.

uuuh, ok.

 

[Katzpur]

The founders of Islam and Mormonism both had personal experiences of divinity that lead them to call the personal experiences of earlier people fake or at least misguided.

Whose experiences did Joseph Smith call "fake" or "misguided"?

 

[JustWondering]

Whose experiences did Joseph Smith call "fake" or "misguided"?

Logically, any religion that isn't derived from Mormonism has to be discounted as false or misguided by Smith and his followers. In order for Joseph Smith to set up his religion he made claims that the teachings/beliefs of other Christians were wrong and/or incomplete. Furthermore, Islam claims Mohammed would be the last prophet to bring revelations to the earth. So according to Smith's claims Islam is a fake faith or at best one with some incorrect beliefs. The catholic church doesn't agree with Smith's revelations/beliefs either. It's only logical that by making claims that your religion is true you are also claiming those beliefs that contradict yours are false.

 

[Katzpur]

Logically, any religion that isn't derived from Mormonism has to be discounted as false or misguided by Smith and his followers. In order for Joseph Smith to set up his religion he made claims that the teachings/beliefs of other Christians were wrong and/or incomplete. Furthermore, Islam claims Mohammed would be the last prophet to bring revelations to the earth. So according to Smith's claims Islam is a fake faith or at best one with some incorrect beliefs. The catholic church doesn't agree with Smith's revelations/beliefs either. It's only logical that by making claims that your religion is true you are also claiming those beliefs that contradict yours are false.

That didn't actually answer my question, but it did clarify to me what you meant by your initial statement. But by that logic, every one of the 30,000 or so different Christian denominations are based on "false or misguided experiences" by all of the others. I mean, they all differ from each other, so they can't all be true, can they?

 

[JustWondering]

That didn't actually answer my question, but it did clarify to me what you meant by your initial statement. But by that logic, every one of the 30,000 or so different Christian denominations are based on "false or misguided experiences" by all of the others. I mean, they all differ from each other, so they can't all be true, can they?

If one is completely unbiased and open minded one religion could be true. I personally don't believe in any god/s or creator/s because I am unconvinced such entities exist, even if some kind of creator exists, I wonder why it would require us to have any knowledge of it. If this life is some kind of test of our character it hardly matters what religion if any you belong to. Either you're a good person or you're not.

In regards to the topic of this thread, why do you consider Smith legit and prophets of other religions not legit? Can't the same reasons you use to dismiss other "messengers" be applied to Smith?

 

[soulsurvivor]

How so? I don't see anything particularly unique or extraordinary about his teachings.

We have already gone over this, for Christ's sake. Nobody has ever said 'turn the other cheek' or 'love your enemies' before him - this is extraordinary.

Only if you take the bible as being a reliable source of information, which I do not. How did you determine the bible is a legitimate source of information? Are there any sources outside the bible that back up that these miracles happened, or that Jesus as depicted in the bible even existed for that matter?

Please stop saying 'bible'! I ONLY believe in the NT.

There were plenty of witnesses and multiple authors (at least 4, but more if you count Thomas etc). And you don't get over 1.5 billion believers from a made up story - only a very arrogant, conceited, tiny man would think he is somehow smarter than so many people.

The founders of Islam and Mormonism both had personal experiences of divinity that lead them to call the personal experiences of earlier people fake or at least misguided. So personal revelation/experiences do not seem to be a reliable source of information when concerning supernatural claims, which by their nature cannot be verified.

It seems to me that you want to believe what you believe more than you have any logical reason to.

Each persons personal experience are genuine to him.It does not matter if they do not believe in each other's experiences. However, if many people have similar ones - like personal experiences of Jesus or Muhammad that definitely contributes to their authenticity.

I really think you will have a serious problem when the Christ returns. I would expect major depression, may be a mental breakdown, perhaps suicidal thoughts. I think you should be prepared, because the event is very likely to occur in the next 6-7 months.

 

[JustWondering]

We have already gone over this, for Christ's sake. Nobody has ever said 'turn the other cheek' or 'love your enemies' before him - this is extraordinary.

Pacifism is not limited to Christianity, that is absurd.

Pacifism - Wikipedia

Please stop saying 'bible'! I ONLY believe in the NT.

Jesus was a Jew and said himself that he did not come to change the law. So if Jesus believed in what was in the OT why don't you? That doesn't make any sense.

There were plenty of witnesses and multiple authors (at least 4, but more if you count Thomas etc). And you don't get over 1.5 billion believers from a made up story - only a very arrogant, conceited, tiny man would think he is somehow smarter than so many people.

No, there are some stories by unknown authors. Some of which were chosen to be put in the bible as canon and others that were deemed unworthy of being put in the bible.

Development of the Christian biblical canon - Wikipedia

Religion and its gods were invented by man.

Each persons personal experience are genuine to him.It does not matter if they do not believe in each other's experiences. However, if many people have similar ones - like personal experiences of Jesus or Muhammad that definitely contributes to their authenticity.

You are ignoring that Muhammad said that Christianity had become corrupt over time and had things wrong. You are also ignoring that people from every religion has had experiences that back up their beliefs. Beliefs that contradict each other. That means, logically, these experiences cannot be trusted.

I really think you will have a serious problem when the Christ returns. I would expect major depression, may be a mental breakdown, perhaps suicidal thoughts. I think you should be prepared, because the event is very likely to occur in the next 6-7 months.

What reason do you have to believe any such thing will happen? What will you do when it doesn't happen? Also, do not project your problems on to me. I do not suffer from depression.

 

[NayaVeda]

It seems obvious to me that revealed religions are bogus. Why would a god not announce it's desires and demands directly to the people? Isn't it blatantly obvious that anyone claiming to talk on behalf of a god is either insane or a con artist? If an old man who lived in your neighborhood disappeared for a week and then returned with a stone tablet he chiseled commandments into and claimed he spoke to god, would you believe him?

What if the current god is the middle man, the demiurge, of a higher deity?

 

[JustWondering]

What if the current god is the middle man, the demiurge, of a higher deity?

What god? I don't personally know any gods. I only know that people make unverifiable claims about such beings.

 

[NayaVeda]

What god? I don't personally know any gods. I only know that people make unverifiable claims about such beings.

Universe = God?

Nature = God?

 

[JustWondering]

Universe = God?

Nature = God?

Universe = Universe

Nature = Nature

 

[NayaVeda]

Universe = Universe

Nature = Nature

Universe could be Multiverse for all we know

 

[soulsurvivor]

Pacifism is not limited to Christianity, that is absurd.

Pacifism - Wikipedia

Turning the other cheek or loving your enemies is not pacifism. Pacifism would just avoid enemies and not fight or run away etc.

Jesus was a Jew and said himself that he did not come to change the law. So if Jesus believed in what was in the OT why don't you? That doesn't make any sense.

I don't think Jesus accepted everything in the OT either, but either way it does not matter if it does not make sense to you

No, there are some stories by unknown authors. Some of which were chosen to be put in the bible as canon and others that were deemed unworthy of being put in the bible.

Development of the Christian biblical canon - Wikipedia

Religion and its gods were invented by man.

It does not matter if there were unknown authors or some were not deemed worthy by self-appointed arbiters. The fact still remains that there were plenty of witnesses and plenty of authors. Again it is just your opinion that gods were invented by men, although I agree that religions were invented by men,

You are ignoring that Muhammad said that Christianity had become corrupt over time and had things wrong. You are also ignoring that people from every religion has had experiences that back up their beliefs. Beliefs that contradict each other. That means, logically, these experiences cannot be trusted.

Of course there are plenty of things wrong in Christianity as well as in Islam. I said before, I only accept the words of Jesus from the bible without question. Everything else in Bible as well as the Koran is up for debate and correction.

What reason do you have to believe any such thing will happen? What will you do when it doesn't happen? Also, do not project your problems on to me. I do not suffer from depression.

Its only a matter of six months, so we will find out soon enough. - I think you should prepare for a shock to your basic belief system. The consequences for you psychologically, emotionally could be extreme.