No, if you say somethng is a myth, you have to prove it is to have an credibility.
You are hilarious.
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Messiah Ben Joseph versus Messiah Ben David
- Thread starter Ben Avraham
- Start date
No, if you say somethng is a myth, you have to prove it is to have an credibility.
You are hilarious.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
LOL! You are the ones touting the impossible walking dead.
It is up to you folks to prove it.
Ingledsva said:
See! That is exactly how we think about your mythic religious ideas.
According to their religion, - Hera was regurgitated from Cronus.
Both are ridiculous myths, - that scientifically minded people do NOT have to disprove!
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Spiritual concepts cant be proven or disproven. I admit I can't prove what I believe, will you admit you can't prove it is a myth?
What you think is irrelevant.
If you say it, you own it and unless you have some evidence to support it, it is only your OPINIONS are just that, OPINIONS and why should anyone accept an unproven opinion?
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
You have got to understand that "punishment by God" is through the law of cause & effect for instance, you sin, you are punished according to the consequences of your sin. Since sin is the transgression of the law, if you do not commit a transgression of the law, you did not sin. But one sins because it has never been a man upon earth who has done only good and never sinned. (Ecclesiastes 7:20) What God promised is that there is no more collective punishment. So, no one can be punished for the sins of another. "Only the one who sins shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
Now, about the woman who, so to speak, committed adult, it was only an allegory; it never happened in reality. If you break a commandment, you will be punished only for the commandment you broke. She would die for the sin of having committed adultery. Sins don't lead to death; what leads to death is to have been born. Thousands of babies die every single day throughout the world and none of the them have ever committed a single sin. They die because they were born. God punishes no one. We punish ourselves when we use our freewill to do evil. Sacrifices are religious rituals established by religious leaders. In Israel, they were established by Moses. God Himself never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel if you read Jeremiah 7:22. The whole book of Job anyways, is an allegory to point to the role of Israel qua Immanuel on earth. Job represents Israel and his friends the Gentiles. You can see that in Job 42:7-10.
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Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Jesus did not die for the forgiveness of other people's sins. He died because he had allowed his own disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in a Roman province which was Jerusalem at that time. (Luke 19:37-40) So, he died on the political charge of insurrection against Rome. Hence, INRI was commanded by Pilate to be nailed on the top of his cross as his verdict so that all could see the reason why he was crucified. But I see, even today that it didn't help as antiSemites prefer to accuse the Jews with having crucified Jesus. As you see, Antisemitism die hard.
Now, regarding sacrifices, they have never had the power to remove sins. For 70 years of exile in Babylon, there was never a single sacrifice made and, at the end of the exile, all the iniquity of the Jews had been forgiven if you read Daniel 9:24. If sacrifices removed sins, HaShem would not have established through Isaiah 1:18,19 that, to set things right with the Lord so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow, we must repent, make reparations, and return to the obedience of the Law. That's the only way to have our sins forgiven. Even Jesus himself said that the only way to achieve salvation is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Tell me Resolution, have you read the tread? The whole tread? The answer to this post of yours is more than clear if you focus on the thread when reading.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
Death came to man through Adam. Genesis 3: 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Man died the day Adam sinned he was disobedient to God. So God stopped him from eating from the tree of life. Had all mankind, even in Adams fallen flesh been able to eat from the tree of life they would have lived forever. So death came through one mans sin, that Man was Adam,
The Law only revealed what sin/wrong was and condemned all mankind for God has made clear what they should not do.
And the bible itself in the Torah shows that all die because of one Adam for he removed the right to eat from the tree of life.
However God also shows that 39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
So we see all men die because of their sin but sin caused separation from God. The bible is clear that God had given Adam the right to eat from the tree of life.
We see he removed the right to eat from the tree of life and live forever after he sinned. Thus all men die now because of Adam. If God had not withdrew the right to eat from the tree of life
all mankind would have lived forever even in their fallen state. There was no law in the time of Abraham. Abraham knew God and his faith was accounted for righteouness but he still died.
The wages of sin is death and we see that Christ never sinned according to the Law but he was not born of the line of flesh which was from Abraham but Like Adam born by the power of God
not flesh. Abraham had no sin as there was no law. He died as we all do because of the sin of Adam.
We know it did happen because the disciples showed it did. And it would have been something which had happened since living in the wilderness with God.
However that is why people today do not understand the Torah being about TRUTH. If everything an allegory then Abraham never existed . God forbid we do not understand truth,
Christ didn't tell his disciples these things, they witnessed them.
Wrong:- If Christ says " Whoever breaks one law has broken them all" then the truth is no matter what law you break, if you break a law you are guilty no matter which law it was.
The guilt is the same and it is sin. You sin against God and against your neighbour,
You see the wages of sin is death as Adam has shown and some sins they put you to death for immediately. Adultery was one of them.
She would already die but what about the priest
and their sacrifices and the sacrificial scape goat. Did they not work? You see you are not really understanding what God is telling us.
They died because of Adams original sin.
They were not born of flesh which was made alive by the fruit from the tree of life in the body of their parents. Had all flesh eaten from the tree of life there would have been no deaths.
All die because the right to eat from the tree of life was withdrew from Adam in the Genesis. Death came by the sin of one man his name was Adam.
King James Bible
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Genesis 3: 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Why would God require an allegory when God is Truth?
What is clear is there was a 'tree of life' and Adam had the right to eat from that tree. It was withdrawn when he sinned. So no man could live forever in the fallen state of the fallen flesh of Adam.
A man cannot live by every word of God if he does not believe it is Gods word and true.
As God cannot lie what he told Moses to write had to be the truth. The words he gave to Jesus had to be true.
Numbers 23:19
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
God cannot and does not lie. He has never sinned and he makes good all he has spoken.
So what God said through Moses is the truth. What he has said through Christ is the truth.
Furthermore his Spirit is truth.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
The Holy Spirit was given to the Prophets and those like King David. There is nothing false in the words of God.
King James Bible
For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.
The Torah is clear that death came to mankind because of Adams sin. Just as Christs perfect sacrifice bring eternal life. When all passed and the judgment comes
many will rise to eternal life and others to eternal disgrace.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
If you read the thread just written by myself you see how the posts, including your own was wrong. Men die today because of Adams sins not their own.
The sins they commit today is not judged till after they die here.
God made it clear that death in the life came through one man only. Adam which is clear for all in .Genesis 3: 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
We now have the evidence that flesh only died in this life because God withdrew the right to eat from the tree of life in mans fallen state.
Sin brings death to all and judgment but we see that physical death for Adam and mankind happened when God withdrew mankinds right to eat from the tree of life.
So all men die because of the sin of one man who was called Adam. Now you have the evidence what will you do about that?
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Again, Resolution, no one dies for the sin of another person. One dies because he or she was born. Babies die by the thousands every day without having committed a single sin. There is no judgment of any one who has already died. According to the Genesis allegory of Creation in Genesis 3:22,23, man was banished from the Garden of Eden, to prevent him from taking of the tree of life and live forever. It means that man was not supposed to live forever but to die because he had been born. Every one who had a beginning has to have an end. To God only belongs Eternity.
When a man dies, every thing about that man dies. If you read Genesis 2:7, when the Lord formed man from the dust of the earth, He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. To become is to be. We don't have a soul; we are a soul. At death, the body goes back to the dust and the breath of life goes back to God Who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12;7) Sin brings death to NONE. What brings death to all is to have been born. The only way to eliminate death is to eliminate births. For, if one is not born, he will never die. Again, no one dies because of the sin of another man; for heaven's sake, this Logic is not so hard to understand. Only Christian preconceived notions make it so hard to understand. I have elaborated on your evidence and I have already given to you the result above.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
You are deliberately being obtuse. God visited the sins of the Father onto the 3rd and fourth generations.
So you fail to grasp all die from sin and the scape goat and sacrifices took away sin.
Christ died for the sins of the people. You have not provided evidence just misquoted a few verses.
They all die because Adam sinned. It is easy for you now to see that the wages of sin is death and judgment takes place after death. But everyone dies because of Adams sin.
There death is the punishment of Adam sin. Now you can't get out of that one.
The right removed because he had sinned. So no you can't change the fact he could eat from the tree of life and live forever. But God withdrew that right and mankind died.
Wrong because Adam was supposed to live forever and all mankind.
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat.
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Man was suppose to live forever..He could eat from the tree of life up until he sinned. So Adam was the one man who caused
mankind to die.
Not supported by scripture.
Look at Dives and Lazarus and look at the Pharisee and Sadducee. Different beliefs and one believed in resurrection.
Why pretend that God has not declared and done what he said he would.
Look at Hebrews 7:3 says that Melchizedek was “without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.”
Look at Elijah....11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven
Orthodox judaism holds belief in the resurrection of the dead to be one of the cardinal principles of Rabbinic Judaism,
Elijah's body didn't die.
The logic isn't logical it is flawed in the facts of the OT Prophets teachings. Melchizedek a priest forever,.Elijah taken up into heaven.. Resurrection of the dead part of judaism.
It appears there is nothing logical about your beliefs on this matter.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
That's exactly what I see in you, deliberate obtuseness because of your Christian preconceived notions. You are not focussed on the Decalogue when reading the Ten Commandments. "For the Lord your God am an impassioned God visiting the guilty of the parents upon the children, upon the the third generation and upon the fourth generations of those who reject Me." That's obvious; it has nothing to do with dying for the sins of another.
No, Adam was not supposed to live forever. No one who had a beginning could live forever. (Genesis 3:22,23)
I looked and saw that none believed in bodily resurrection. If you read David, II Samuel 12:23, David testified that there is no bodily resurrection. I read Job 7:9; 10:21; and 14:12 and saw that he never believed in bodily resurrection. Bodily resurrection is a Christian doctrine which Christianity copied from Hellenism. What I saw in Elijah 11, it was an euphemism used by Elisha to promote postmortem honer to Elijah.
That's how Christian preconceived notions cause Christians to take when paraphrasing the Tanach. That 's not true. What do you have as an evidence that Elijah's body did not die, faith? That's evidence of nothing. Nothing can be evidence of anything forever. Only Elohim is forever. Melchizedek was only a pagan king among the ancient Canaanites offering their firstborn sons to Baal Molech on the fire. Elijah was taken down to Sheol aka grave, the eternal home of the dead. (Psalms 49:12,20) No one can prove bodily resurrection, even Orthodox Judaism which you you claim here. If you are so fan of resurrection, why don't you join them?
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I don't see it that way with Job, I mean Job 14:13-14, the verses after verse 12, say: "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands." - KJV
Also in Job 19:25-27, there is some evidence that he believed in a resurrection, so I can't understand this saying that it was invented with Christianity. What about Samuel when his spirit arose from the grave and talked to Saul? What about the boy that Elijah rose from the dead, and also the one which rose from the dead at the hand of Elisha? Then there are Elisha's bones, which when a man died the man arose. I mean these last few are from memory, more or less.
Also in Job 19:25-27, there is some evidence that he believed in a resurrection, so I can't understand this saying that it was invented with Christianity. What about Samuel when his spirit arose from the grave and talked to Saul? What about the boy that Elijah rose from the dead, and also the one which rose from the dead at the hand of Elisha? Then there are Elisha's bones, which when a man died the man arose. I mean these last few are from memory, more or less.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
You are the one who says a person cannot die for the sins of another.
We are talking about God visiting the sins of the father upon the children of those who hate them to the third and fourth generation.
If you had any idea what you were talking about you would have know those sins held against the descendants of those persons down to third and fourth generation.
If no one could die for sins then the scapegoat and the sacrifices for sin would never have removed the sins of the Israelites by the high priest.
You cannot have it both ways either someone can die for sin or it cannot die for sin. But the truth is that WE all died because of Adams sin.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
The evidence in there in the bible as you see above.
Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
16.And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17.But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The evidence that Adam was suppose to live forever is that he was given the right to eat from the tree of life clearly growing in the garden as was the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam told not to eat of only one tree. It was to stop him living forever in his fallen state that he was removed from the Garden.
Genesis 2 and 3 prove Adam was meant to live for ever and that he lost the right to the fruit from the tree of life when he sinned. This condemned us all to death.
So one mans sin condemned us all to death. Nothing can change the evidence in the Torah.
Acts 23:8.
King James Bible
For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
You are clearly mis representing the death of Davids child whom God said would die because of his adultery with Uriah's wife Bathsheba. He sent her husband to the front to die having
seen her bathe on a roof top and then he had sex with her and she became pregnant. He sent for Uriah to return home hoping he would sleep with his wife and pass the baby off as his own.
But Uriah would not do this whilst his men still fighting. So David sent him to the front to die. The Lord told David the child would die and he mourned the death even before and hoped God
would repent. In fact his child died because of his sin, did he not? Didn't God put the punishment of Davids sin and Bathsheba on their child? Did his child not die because of the Fathers sin?
You say they could not bring him back from the dead but the fact is you also forget the womans son whom Elisha raised from the dead.
2 Kings 4: 32-35.
32 And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed.
33 He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the Lord.
34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.
35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
Nothing is impossible for God even the dead were raised by the power of God through the Prophets. In your own words you have proven from Gods words that children are punished for their fathers sin and even died as Davids child because of their Fathers sin. Then we see that the dead can be resurrected even in this life as Elisha shows us. That God is able to do the impossible.
So we have established that Davids child punished for Davids sin and David punished by his child dying because of his sin. We have seen God did resurrect the dead through Elisha.
We also know that the Pharisee believed in the resurrection, angels and spirits. The latter mentioned in Acts 23:8 but confirmed by literature and information about Pharisees through the ages.
The rest of the bible actually quoted above proves you wrong on all accounts. No preconceived Christian notions here. Whilst I believe the NT contains truth. I believe like Jesus Christ,
the Disciples and the Prophets that the Torah and teachings of the Prophets are the true scripture and word of God. I believe this is the ONLY scripture referred to as scripture in the NT
and I believe in ONE God and his Son Jesus Christ. But I believe that God educated me in the OT so we can discern the truth about him first, to serve him first. And to recognise the mis preconceived notion of his Messiah and what men went on to believe. Jesus taught us that God was to be put before everyone, which included himself.
King James Bible
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Berean Study Bible
But Jesus replied, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.'"
Jesus taught people to do as he did. So like Jesus, I worship only the true God of heaven and earth, and Jesus taught the right thing when he said these words.
Just as Moses before him. I cannot speak for Christianity as I was raised by God to know the truth. The truth shows that it is in actually knowing God and the scriptures that you know the truth.
Jesus clearly knew both.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
1 - You are already lying. I have never said that a person cannot die for the sins of another. Evidence that you are lying is that you don't care to check the quotes. Again, read Ezekiel 18:4, 20; Jeremiah 31:30 and there are many more quotes for that matter in the Tanach. So, I said nothing from the top of my head. The Prophets said all.
2 - God's visitation upon the sins of those who hate Him is of the sins of the children, not of the father. This has been always thus; it has never been different.
3 - You are the one who does not know what you are talking about. We are no longer living at a time of collective punishments. Now, only the one who sins shall die. Read again Ezekiel 18:4,20.
4. The Scapegoat never had the power to remove sins. It was a prophecy pointing to the split of the Tribes between Israel and Judah. That's when Israel qua Scapegoat fell to the Assyrians according to Amos 5:2 and was taken forever into exile to the East through the desert. That's when the Lord rejected Israel forever and confirmed Judah to remain as the only Kingdom forever. (Psalm 78:67-70; I Kings 11:36)
5 - The truth is that you don't have the Truth. The Truth must be according to the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach, not according to Christian preconceived notions. Jesus himself made it very clear that the only way to escape one's sins is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law if you read Luke 16:29-31. Then, Isaiah in 1:18,19 said that he only way to set things right with the Lord so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow, we must repent, make reparations and return to the obedience of God's Law.[/QUOTE]
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RESOLUTION
Active Member
As you see you clearly did state the above in your post number 169.
I will read the rest of your post and answer when you correct your own error and stop making this a personal issue rather than a biblical debate issue on Gods word.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
As a matter of fact, it was not an error; read my lips, "NO ONE CAN DIE FOR THE SINS OF ANOTHER" if you read
Ezekiel 18:4,20. If you have found out in the Tanach that one can, please, let me know it. Just don't take me to the NT
because Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
Ben, If you are not honest enough to be straight instead of trying to twist things then that is your downfall.
I have shown time and time again that you keep hopping from one foot to another.
In truth you have not shown anything in support of anything you had said. You deny something one minute then don't deny it and accuse others falsely.
If you really know God then why don't you understand the truth. Even basic truths from the time of Christ amongst the Jews seem to evade you.
That is the problem with the Jews they took a teaching and made it what they wanted it to be. Something to fit within their lifestyle.
But knowing God is about changing our lifestyle to fit in with his definition regarding the truth in his teachings.
Have you ever humbled yourself before God and asked him to show you the truth. Messianic Jews know the truth and why do you believe that to be so?
I don't see you have an points you have proved NOTHING but shown your ideas to be incorrect and unstable in your thought pattern.
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
The forum has rules against proseltyzing.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
Are you saying the Messianic Jews do not claim their belief in Christ being the Messiah to be true?
I am not proselytising I am simply stating a fact of their beliefs.
Just as non messianic Jews believe they also have the truth.
If talking about faiths believing they have the truth is proselytising then we cannot debate any
religion. But this is the GENERAL RELIGIOUS DEBATE section. So we have religions who believe Christ the Messiah
and Christ not the Messiah but neither statement is to proselytize
