Your responses show a bigoted opinion of Christianity and an ignorance of your own Scriptures.
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Messiah Ben Joseph versus Messiah Ben David
- Thread starter Ben Avraham
- Start date
Your responses show a bigoted opinion of Christianity and an ignorance of your own Scriptures.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
LOL, You have got to be kidding! We are discussing the one Christians misquote, and misread, the most.
Again BULL! Read it. It says before the child knows the difference between good and evil, - certain things in the battle will happen. That is obviously NOT a future Jesus.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a maiden shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Isa 7:1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it. (THE TWO KINGS)
Isa 7:2 And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind.
Jesus called for people that didn't want him to rule over them - to be brought forward and murdered. Bull to that no spot or blemish.
No it doesn't. You have already been shown that the child is born then.
Even your Christian Strong's Concordance will tell you Immanuel is Isaiah's son.
Isa 8:18 Behold, I (ISAIAH) and the children whom YHVH hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from YHVH of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Prolong his days, - see his seed, - prosper, - obviously not a dead man. A repenting people.
Thousands of years later and no Jesus. This is baloney. He was to do certain things when he was alive, - including bringing the end.
I assure you I do use it when called for.
Who said you were?
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The most misquoted verse in the Bible is Prov 13:24.
"Sign" in 7:14 refers to a miraculous sign. A young girl giving birth to a son in Jerusalem at that time, would be an everyday occurence. It would not be a miracle.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
NOPE. Most of you Christians spout on and on about Jesus and his virgin birth.
It is a SIGN for them in their war.
They have YHVH saying and causing it for a reason, - which would then mean we could call it a miracle, - without the child being a miraculous being.
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That verse is no misquoted.
A young girl giving birth to a son in Jerusalem at that time would not be a miraculous sign. It would have been an every day occurance. The could never identify the child.
A child being born naturally would not be a miracle.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Why, because I do not interpret my own Scriptures aka the Tanach according to Christian preconceived notions? How could I if I am not a Christian?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Yes it is misquoted.
Good grief!
No miracle, - a sign - that YHVH was with them in the war.
They were given prophecies about the child as proof that he was with them, - on their side; - BEFORE the child.......
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
The Kings that the story tells us Isaiah is fighting.
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You are missing the point. A child being born naturally to a young woman, would not be a miracle. That child could never be identified and named Immanuel.
There are only three types of people; those who have found God and serve him; those who have not found God and seek him, and those who live not seeking, or finding him. The first are rational and happy; the second unhappy and rational, and the third foolish and unhappy. Blase Pascal
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Pure bull as you have been shown.
The text says YHVH told them the child was a sign -
AND YHVH said - Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
The Kings that the story tells us Isaiah is fighting.
YHVH says she will name the child Immanuel, - and the KINGS dying before the child knows good and evil is part of that SIGN to PROVE YHVH is with them in the war. TWO KINGS ARE DEAD.
Isa 7:14 Therefore YHVH himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a maiden shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
YHVH told them to go into a specific maiden whom would have a child which would be a sign to THEM in the war they were fighting -
Isa 8:2 And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.
Isa 8:3 And I (ISAIAH) went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said YHVH to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz. (battle name/nickname)
Isa 8:4 For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria.
Isa 8:5 YHVH spake also unto me again, saying,
Isa 8:6 Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;
Isa 8:7 Now therefore, behold, YHVH bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
Isa 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
The same names from the war they are fighting - are brought up AFTER the birth.
Obviously no future Jesus here.
Note that it says the MAIDEN shall call his name Immanuel. Mary named her son Jesus.
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Explain to me how a maiden giving birth to a son would be a miraculous sign. That would be a an everyday, NATURAL occurance. How would that kid be identified?
Mt 1:21-23 - She ahall bear a son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. Now this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet; Behold the Virgin(and there is no doubt about the meaning of this word in the Greek)shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name IMMANUEL, which translated means "God with us."
You have more than one name, so why do you limit Jesus to just one?
BTW Jesus means "Jehovah is salvation." In the Bible name mean something important. If you put Jesus' 2 names together it tells us that God is with us and that He is the way of salvation.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Already explained - does not have to be a miracle. Certain things AROUND the child, were predicted. THAT is the PROOF that YHVH is with them in the war.
Exactly how hard would it be to identify ISAIAH's son? And the prophesized things around him.
YHVH says the mother will name him Immanuel. That leaves Mary out as she named her son Jesus.
Immanuel has one name - given by his mother (as prophesized.) And one given by Isaiah - which is a war name meaning something like - Swift to the plunder, = A quick end to the war.
Jesus has ONE name - given by his mother - Jesus - not the prophesized name, - and other titles given by later men. He was NOT named Immanuel by his mother. Paul whom did not know him, - added Immanuel, - because he had read Isaiah.
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The word for "sign" means a miraculous sign. You have to ignore that toe try and make your point.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
And you try to throw the topic off with such, - which has already been discussed. (Sign does NOT have to be a miracle. Followed by, - YHVH appearing and proclaiming such, could be considered the miracle.)
You make no challenge to the real damning information given.
Point in fact -
GOD says the mother will name her child Immanuel!
Isa 7:14 Therefore YHVH himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a maiden shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Mary names her child Jesus.
After Jesus' death, - Saul/Paul - who didn't even know Jesus, - adds the name Immanuel to his story, as he has read and misunderstood, parts of Isaiah.
It is very strange that you folks can claim God is unerring, - then you ignore what he says in your Bible, - and instead believe Jesus is Immanuel, even when he obviously didn't arrive and get named the way GOD said Immanuel would!
And you can add to that the verses YOU were shown - that show certain things relating to the war they were fighting - were to Happen BEFORE THE CHILD UNDERSTOOD THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL!
And lets look at that - before the child understood the difference between good and evil! This implies the child is normal and does both good and evil before understanding.
That would leave your perfect, untainted, Lamb Sacrifice, in the dust!
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The word in Hebrew means a miraculous sign, and you can't get around that.
Already addressed.
The Bible says Paul did meet Jesus, do you have any evidence he didn't? Jesus was also named Immanuel long befdor Paul came on the scene.
WE don't ignore it, we understand it. You don't.
"Sign" in the verse means miraculous, If you don't understand that, you will never know the truth.
rosends
Well-Known Member
Actually, the word means a mark or signal. It appears in various forms 79 times in the Tanach. It refers to a miraculous sign in about half of those. Interestingly, Even-Shoshan does not include 7:14 as one of those, but as a physical signal or a non-physical indication of a relationship; not a miracle. You should check on this in your Even-Shoshan. In the 3 volume set, it is in volume 1, page 53. If you wish to read in your particular understanding then realize that you are imposing your interpretation and are coming to it rather late in the game.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I have already shown this can be either, and is here, a sign.
No you have not addressed it.
How do you make Jesus Emanuel - when he does NOT fit what YHVH says will happen, - and does NOT have the correct name given by his MOTHER, - as YHVH says will be???
Saul/Paul claims he met the long dead Jesus on the road. Interesting since he then preempted the religion, - and took it down a non-Jewish path.
Very obviously you don't.
Again - NO! See Rosends' post # 135.
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You Are right it does not have to means a miraculous sign, but in the case of Isa 7:14 a young girl giving birth to a son, would be an every day occurancde an the child could not be identified.
There are many good scholars who disagree with Even-Shoshan. If you want to believe it, that is fine with me.
Where this verse is quoted in the NT there is no doubt the word means virgin.
rosends
Well-Known Member
So you have changed your position. Now, you accept that the word doesn't mean "miraculous sign" even though you said, "The word for "sign" means a miraculous sign." (posts 132 and 134 I believe).
OK, that's step 1.
Next would be your understanding that a young woman becoming pregnant is a miraculous event. I'm not sure why it would be -- young married women do that. Is there anything in the text which indicates that there is a miracle associated with a young woman getting pregnant.
And then there is the issue of verb tense. The verse is pretty clear about verb tense: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה הָרָה
"behold, the young woman IS pregnant."
So not only is the choice of word in terms of the women (young woman, not virgin) exact, but the verb tense makes it clear that the woman is already pregnant.
If you want to believe that the Hebrew noun is inexact and the verb tense is wrong, that's fine with me.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
Mat 1:23 changes it from what YHVH says - the mother will name, - to man's word - "they" will call him!!!
Ingledsva said:
3 days??? Wow! You just proved my point about you folks not knowing the info.
From one of your Christian sites, - as I know you won't accept anything else.
Paul was born in Tarsus in AD 10, and died in Rome in AD 67, according to Eusebius,
Paul wasn't even born until after Jesus' death.
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