Messiah Ben Joseph versus Messiah Ben David

[Ben Avraham]

Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David

The whole chapter 53 of Isaiah is about the dramatic epic of two Messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. The drama that culminated in the "death" of Messiah ben Joseph for the sins of Messiah ben David. Properly speaking, Messiah ben Joseph is Ephraim or Israel, the Ten Tribes of the Northern Kingdom. And Messiah ben David is Judah, the Southern Kingdom.

The sins of Judah had filled the Divine cup, and in God's judgment, the day had arrived for the removal of Judah.(Isa. 9:8) But according to I Kings 11:36, God had promised David that Judah, whose Tribe he had come from, would stay as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. Therefore, according to Isaiah 9:8, the final judgment that was supposed to come upon Judah fell upon Israel instead, and Messiah ben Joseph had to go instead of Judah, or Messiah ben David.

But Isaiah says in 53:9 that the Suffering Servant was without guile, and sinless. That's exactly what Israel was: Pure of the sins he died for, since they were the sins of Judah and not his. Messiah ben Joseph therefore, did not die for his sins but for the sins of Messiah ben David. Therefore, Israel was removed because of the sins of another. He was pierced so to speak, by the sins of Judah. The sacrifice of Israel or Messiah ben Joseph meant the salvation of Judah or Messiah ben David. That's why Zechariah in 12:10 says that they (Judah) shall look upon him (Israel) whom they (Judah) had pierced with their sins, and mourn for him (Israel) as the one who mourns for his firstborn.

Now, let me explain by way of an analogy how Israel, or Messiah ben Joseph, who was the Suffering Servant died innocent of the sins of Judah or Messiah ben David:

"A" and "B". "A" has committed a crime punishable with death, and "B", by mistake was condemned for that crime. It doesn't matter how evil is "B" in his life or how bad are his sins. The point is that he was condemned to die for the crime of "A". Therefore "B" was killed innocent and pure of the crimes and sins of "A". "A" got saved by the death of "B". So, "B" was the Suffering Servant that brought salvation to "A". Now matching the analogy to reality, "A" was Judah that pierced "B" with his crimes and sins.

Now, with the removal of Messiah ben Joseph, according to Psalm 78:67-70, Messiah ben David occupied the place of Messiah ben Joseph, but as the Triumphant Servant with reference to the rest of Mankind, because of God's promise to Noah that humanity would never be destroyed again in an universal manner.(Gen. 8:21) The People-redeemer was the pledge and on his way in the near future with the choice of Abraham through Isaac. That's what sustains the world and allows it to keep going. Now, there is a small detail worthy keeping in mind. The blood of the Suffering Servant was shed once and for all. Now, Mankind is kept safe with the existence of Judah, the Triumphant Servant, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37.

 

[omega2xx]

Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David

The whole chapter 53 of Isaiah is about the dramatic epic of two Messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. The drama that culminated in the "death" of Messiah ben Joseph for the sins of Messiah ben David. Properly speaking, Messiah ben Joseph is Ephraim or Israel, the Ten Tribes of the Northern Kingdom. And Messiah ben David is Judah, the Southern Kingdom.

The sins of Judah had filled the Divine cup, and in God's judgment, the day had arrived for the removal of Judah.(Isa. 9:8) But according to I Kings 11:36, God had promised David that Judah, whose Tribe he had come from, would stay as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. Therefore, according to Isaiah 9:8, the final judgment that was supposed to come upon Judah fell upon Israel instead, and Messiah ben Joseph had to go instead of Judah, or Messiah ben David.

But Isaiah says in 53:9 that the Suffering Servant was without guile, and sinless. That's exactly what Israel was: Pure of the sins he died for, since they were the sins of Judah and not his. Messiah ben Joseph therefore, did not die for his sins but for the sins of Messiah ben David. Therefore, Israel was removed because of the sins of another. He was pierced so to speak, by the sins of Judah. The sacrifice of Israel or Messiah ben Joseph meant the salvation of Judah or Messiah ben David. That's why Zechariah in 12:10 says that they (Judah) shall look upon him (Israel) whom they (Judah) had pierced with their sins, and mourn for him (Israel) as the one who mourns for his firstborn.

Now, let me explain by way of an analogy how Israel, or Messiah ben Joseph, who was the Suffering Servant died innocent of the sins of Judah or Messiah ben David:

"A" and "B". "A" has committed a crime punishable with death, and "B", by mistake was condemned for that crime. It doesn't matter how evil is "B" in his life or how bad are his sins. The point is that he was condemned to die for the crime of "A". Therefore "B" was killed innocent and pure of the crimes and sins of "A". "A" got saved by the death of "B". So, "B" was the Suffering Servant that brought salvation to "A". Now matching the analogy to reality, "A" was Judah that pierced "B" with his crimes and sins.

Now, with the removal of Messiah ben Joseph, according to Psalm 78:67-70, Messiah ben David occupied the place of Messiah ben Joseph, but as the Triumphant Servant with reference to the rest of Mankind, because of God's promise to Noah that humanity would never be destroyed again in an universal manner.(Gen. 8:21) The People-redeemer was the pledge and on his way in the near future with the choice of Abraham through Isaac. That's what sustains the world and allows it to keep going. Now, there is a small detail worthy keeping in mind. The blood of the Suffering Servant was shed once and for all. Now, Mankind is kept safe with the existence of Judah, the Triumphant Servant, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37.

No it isn't. There is only one Messiah. l Isa 53, is about the crucifixion of Jesus, the Messiah.

 

[Ingledsva]

No it isn't. There is only one Messiah. l Isa 53, is about the crucifixion of Jesus, the Messiah.

Good grief!

The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the Jewish people.

Read it in context. Look at 52.

Isa 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isa 52:2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

Isa 52:3 For thus saith YHVH, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

Isa 52:4 For thus saith the YHVH, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.

Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith YHVH, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.

Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for YHVH hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for YHVH will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of YHVH revealed? (See Isa 52:9-13.)

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. (This actually says - For the transgressions of my people were THEY stricken.)

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of YHVH, and their righteousness is of me, saith YHVH.

Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

See also Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20

The Bible is filled with other references to the Jewish people as God’s “servant”; see Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22.

*

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Good grief!

^ This ...

 

[Ben Avraham]

No it isn't. There is only one Messiah. l Isa 53, is about the crucifixion of Jesus, the Messiah.

I did not say there are two Messiahs but there WERE two Messiahs. When Messiah Ben Joseph in the fulfilling of the role of the Scapegoat was sent to Azazel aka Assyria Eastward through the desert, only Messiah Ben David remains, and he is not Jesus as Jesus is dead. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

 

[Ben Avraham]

Good grief!

The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the Jewish people.

Read it in context. Look at 52.

Isa 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isa 52:2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

Isa 52:3 For thus saith YHVH, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

Isa 52:4 For thus saith the YHVH, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.

Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith YHVH, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.

Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for YHVH hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for YHVH will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of YHVH revealed? (See Isa 52:9-13.)

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. (This actually says - For the transgressions of my people were THEY stricken.)

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of YHVH, and their righteousness is of me, saith YHVH.

Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

See also Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20

The Bible is filled with other references to the Jewish people as God’s “servant”; see Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22. *

Shalom Ingledsva! I am happy to see that we are of the same mind. You bring the Truth to us in every line of this post of yours above. Since you have already brought about all the texts I could use to persuade the readers about the Messiah in Isaiah 53, let me endorse the theme with a different prophet. "The Lord goes forth to save His PEOPLE; to save His Anointed One." (Habakkuk 3:13) That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read. Exodus 4:22,23.

 

[Ingledsva]

Shalom Ingledsva! I am happy to see that we are of the same mind. You bring the Truth to us in every line of this post of yours above. Since you have already brought about all the texts I could use to persuade the readers about the Messiah in Isaiah 53, let me endorse the theme with a different prophet. "The Lord goes forth to save His PEOPLE; to save His Anointed One." (Habakkuk 3:13) That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read. Exodus 4:22,23.

Not sure what you are trying to say here, as Habakkuk is a song of praise to YHVH, - recounting the things he did in the past.

EDIT - Forgot to add that Habakkuk 3:3 is talking only about YHVH whom is also the Holy One.

Hab 3:2 O YHVH, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O YHVH, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.

Hab 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

In the past he came from Teman; a city in Edom, it was five miles from Petra, in Idumea, where Mount Seir was, from which YHVH arose, and shone forth from Mount Paran, at the giving of the law.

Israel is indeed called Son of God, and all of them are Son's of God. However that doesn't necessarily mean the Messiah is the nation, though I see where you are going with this. Most await a single person, - like King David, and from his lineage.

*

 

[Ben Avraham]

Not sure what you are trying to say here, as Habakkuk is a song of praise to YHVH, - recounting the things he did in the past.

EDIT - Forgot to add that Habakkuk 3:3 is talking only about YHVH whom is also the Holy One.

Hab 3:2 O YHVH, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O YHVH, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.

Hab 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

In the past he came from Teman; a city in Edom, it was five miles from Petra, in Idumea, where Mount Seir was, from which YHVH arose, and shone forth from Mount Paran, at the giving of the law.

Israel is indeed called Son of God, and all of them are Son's of God. However that doesn't necessarily mean the Messiah is the nation, though I see where you are going with this. Most await a single person, - like King David, and from his lineage. *

The text of Habakkuk 313 identifies the PEOPLE as being the Anointed One of the Lord which means the Messiah. Now, if you read Deuteronomy 7:6, "For you are a People consecrated (aka anointed) to the Lord your God. Of all the peoples on earth, the Lord your God chose you to be His treasured People." That's enough for me.

 

[omega2xx]

Good grief!

The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the Jewish people.

Read it in context. Look at 52.

Isa 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isa 52:2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

Isa 52:3 For thus saith YHVH, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

Isa 52:4 For thus saith the YHVH, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.

Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith YHVH, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.

Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for YHVH hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for YHVH will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of YHVH revealed? (See Isa 52:9-13.)

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. (This actually says - For the transgressions of my people were THEY stricken.)

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of YHVH, and their righteousness is of me, saith YHVH.

Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

See also Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20

The Bible is filled with other references to the Jewish people as God’s “servant”; see Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22.

*

all of God's people are God's servant, but none can fulfill teh requirement sdor Isa 53.

--which Jews bore my grief?
--Which Jew was pierced throiugh for my transgressions?
--which Jew did God cause the iniquity of US ALL to fall on?
--Which Jew offered himself a a guilt offering? No Jews is witghout spoot or blemish and therefore would not qualify.
--Which Jew justified the many?
--Which Jew bore our iniquities?

Phil 2:7 - but emptied Himself, taking the form of a BONDSERVANT, and being found in the likeness of men.
--

 

[omega2xx]

I did not say there are two Messiahs but there WERE two Messiahs. When Messiah Ben Joseph in the fulfilling of the role of the Scapegoat was sent to Azazel aka Assyria Eastward through the desert, only Messiah Ben David remains, and he is not Jesus as Jesus is dead. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Isa 53 says the Messiah will die for the sins of the people. Keep in mind the person in Isa 53 will offer Himself as a guilt offering and no Jews is without spot or blemish and therefore would not qualify.

 

[wizanda]

Read it in context. Look at 52.

Isaiah 52:1-9 is about the restoration in the Messianic age, not before it.

(This actually says - For the transgressions of my people were THEY stricken.)

Isaiah 53:8 Hebrew Text Analysis Where?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Isa 53 says the Messiah will die for the sins of the people. Keep in mind the person in Isa 53 will offer Himself as a guilt offering and no Jews is without spot or blemish and therefore would not qualify.

No, it does not. What verse in Isaiah 53 you are referring to say that the Messiah would die for the the People? If there were such a verse, the Prophets of the Most High would not have proclaimed by inspiration from the Lord that "No one can die for the sins of another." (Ezekiel 18:4,20; Jeremiah 31:30)

 

[Ben Avraham]

all of God's people are God's servant, but none can fulfill teh requirement sdor Isa 53.

--which Jews bore my grief?
--Which Jew was pierced through for my transgressions?
--which Jew did God cause the iniquity of US ALL to fall on?
--Which Jew offered himself a a guilt offering? No Jews is witghout spoot or blemish and therefore would not qualify.
--Which Jew justified the many?
--Which Jew bore our iniquities?

Phil 2:7 - but emptied Himself, taking the form of a BONDSERVANT, and being found in the likeness of men.
--

--Did you read the thread "Messiah Ben Joseph versus Messiah Ben David?" It is clear enough that Messiah Ben Joseph aka Israel the Ten Tribes fulfilled the requirements of Isaiah 53.
--Messiah Ben Joseph bore the grief of Messiah Ben David. (Isaiah 53:8)
--Piercing is an analogy for taken over of one's freedom. So, Messiah Ben Joseph's freedom was taken off when the virgin Israel fell so that Messiah Ben David could remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36; Amos 5:2)
--God caused the iniquity of Messiah Ben David to fall on Messiah Ben Joseph when He rejected Israel the Ten Tribes and confirmed Judah to remain as the only Kingdom of God on earth. (Psalms 78:67-70)
--Neither was Jesus who broke the Golden Rule 15 times only in Mat. 23:13-33. The Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue. Serious transgressions Jesus committed.
--Messiah Ben Joseph aka Israel justified the Many of Messiah Ben David aka Judah, Isaiah said so. (Isaiah 53:11)
--Messiah Ben Joseph aka Israel bore the iniquities of Messiah Ben David aka Judah.

You can understand much better if you read the thread, believe me!

 

[omega2xx]

No, it does not. What verse in Isaiah 53 you are referring to say that the Messiah would die for the the People? If there were such a verse, the Prophets of the Most High would not have proclaimed by inspiration from the Lord that "No one can die for the sins of another." (Ezekiel 18:4,20; Jeremiah 31:30)

No on can die for the sins of another because the sacrifice must be without spot or blemish and no man can qualify except Jesus the Messiah.

 

[omega2xx]

--Did you read the thread "Messiah Ben Joseph versus Messiah Ben David?" It is clear enough that Messiah Ben Joseph aka Israel the Ten Tribes fulfilled the requirements of Isaiah 53.

The couldn't. No human being is without spot or blemish.

--Messiah Ben Joseph bore the grief of Messiah Ben David. (Isaiah 53:8).

That is not Biblical, you are just adding to God's word to avoid seeing Isa 53 as Messianic.

--Piercing is an analogy for taken over of one's freedom.

No it isn't.

So, Messiah Ben Joseph's freedom was taken off when the virgin Israel fell so that Messiah Ben David could remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36; Amos 5:2)
--God caused the iniquity of Messiah Ben David to fall on Messiah Ben Joseph when He rejected Israel the Ten Tribes and confirmed Judah to remain as the only Kingdom of God on earth. (Psalms 78:67-70)

There is no such person as Messiah Ben Joseph or Messiah Ben David,

--Neither was Jesus who broke the Golden Rule 15 times only in Mat. 23:13-33. The Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue. Serious transgressions Jesus committed.

Do you really not understand you can be angry with people you love? It is an act of love to correct those who are sinning, especially religious leaders.

--Messiah Ben Joseph aka Israel justified the Many of Messiah Ben David aka Judah, Isaiah said so. (Isaiah 53:11)
--Messiah Ben Joseph aka Israel bore the iniquities of Messiah Ben David aka Judah.

Once upon a time......and he lived happily ever after.


You can understand the Bible better if you don't make up things that are not Biblical.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The couldn't. No human being is without spot or blemish.

What are you talking about! Isaiah 53 is Messianic but it does not have any thing to do with Jesus. To see Jesus in Isaiah 53, one must bring him to that chapter which means, only a reader under the power of Christian preconceived notions can claim Jesus in Isaiah 53. And this constitutes vandalism of the Tanach with the things of Christianity when Jesus himself never had any thing to do with the NT. He never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The couldn't. No human being is without spot or blemish.

Did you know Jesus was a human being for 33 years of his life and he was not without spot or blemish? If you wonder what I am talking about, he broke the Golden Rule 15 times only in Mat. 23:13-33 when he charged the Pharisees with being hypocrites and brood of vipers. Do you think he would have liked to be addressed as a hypocrite and brood of vipers? I didn't think so. The Golden Rule states that we ought not to do unto others what we would not like they did unto ourselves. And the Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue. Serious transgressions right there! Then, we don't need to go that far. According to Ecclesiastes 7:20, "There has never been a man upon earth who has done only good and never sinned." Jesus was a man upon earth, wasn't he?

 

[Ben Avraham]

No on can die for the sins of another because the sacrifice must be without spot or blemish and no man can qualify except Jesus the Messiah.

Jesus was not the Messiah. Why? Because the Messiah cannot be an individual. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. The Messiah cannot die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) And that Messianic characteristic only Israel as a People could fulfill. (Exodus 19:5,6)

 

[omega2xx]

What are you talking about! Isaiah 53 is Messianic but it does not have any thing to do with Jesus. To see Jesus in Isaiah 53, one must bring him to that chapter which means, only a reader under the power of Christian preconceived notions can claim Jesus in Isaiah 53. And this constitutes vandalism of the Tanach with the things of Christianity when Jesus himself never had any thing to do with the NT. He never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.

Isa 53 is a Messianic prophecy. No Jew can fulfill that prophecy. Only Jesus died for man sins. He is the only One without spot or blemish.

 

[omega2xx]

Jesus was not the Messiah. Why? Because the Messiah cannot be an individual. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. The Messiah cannot die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) And that Messianic characteristic only Israel as a People could fulfill. (Exodus 19:5,6)

As long as you reject the NT, you will never see the truth of Isa 53 and may other Messianic prophecies.