Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

The Emperor of Mankind · Feb 16, 2016

shmogie said:
Some may have used OT verses to justify slavery, and Called themselves Christians. A man may call himself a fence post, but that doesn't make him one. The NT is clear, slavery is wrong, period

Oh really?

1 Peter 2:18 - "Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust."

Colossians 3:22 - "Bondservants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord."

Ephesians 6:5-9 "Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,"

Doesn't look that way to me.

shmogie · Feb 16, 2016

Spiny Norman said:
Yes, it does seem that way, and to me prejudice of this sort looks immature, divisive and regressive. I hope that eventually discrimination based on sexual orientation will be as unacceptable as discrimination based on race and skin colour.

Interesting, what kind of discrimination are you speaking of ? We dusxriuminate abvoiut all kinds of thibgs throiughout our

Spiny Norman said:
Yet again you are trying to claim that belief in God is a prerequisite to any kind of religious or spiritual practice. This is sheer nonsense.

If you were serious about spiritual progress you would be willing to examine your beliefs and prejudices as a means of developing greater self-awareness.

I notice you still haven't responded to the specific points I raised on the previous page, so here they are again:

1. Promoting prejudice and discrimination is contrary to the spirit of Christ's teachings, as conveyed in sayings like these:
"Do unto others as you would have them do to you", "Don't judge or you will be judged", "Love your neighbours as yourself", and so on.

2. Christ himself didn't say anything about homosexuality: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/22/what-jesus-says-about-homosexuality-_n_4489452.html

3. The10 commandments don't mention homosexuality. If homosexuality was such a big deal if would have been included.

4. The Bible condemns all sorts of things, including shellfish, but people are very selective according to their own prejudices.

shmogie · Feb 16, 2016

A Greased Scotsman said:
Oh really?

1 Peter 2:18 - "Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust."

Colossians 3:22 - "Bondservants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord."

Ephesians 6:5-9 "Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,"

Doesn't look like it to me.

The Roman legal system allowed slavery, slaves were trapped by the law and the force of the government. They are being advised how to act as Christians within those constraints. These verses in no way state that slavery is approved by Christ.

Ingledsva · Feb 16, 2016

shmogie said:
Some may have used OT verses to justify slavery, and Called themselves Christians. A man may call himself a fence post, but that doesn't make him one. The NT is clear, slavery is wrong, period

Where does it say that?

Quoting Rabbi M.J. Raphall, circa 1861:

"Receiving slavery as one of the conditions of society, the New Testament nowhere interferes with or contradicts the slave code of Moses; it even preserves a letter [to Philemon] written by one of the most eminent Christian teachers [Paul] to a slave owner on sending back to him his runaway slave."

They obviously still had slaves in NT times -

Jesus uses slavery in one of his parables - so it had to be pertinent to his NT listeners.

Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."

Ephesians 6:5-9: "Slaves (doulos), be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

Colossians 4:1: "Masters, give unto your slaves (doulos) that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many (doulos) slaves as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"

1 Corinthians 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be slave (doulos) or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Mar 14:66 And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the female slaves (paidiske, concubine?) of the high priest:

The paidiske , that is the slave woman, has no social status. She is frequently not named. Thus one named paidiske has neither voice nor agency. A paidiske constitutes the personal property of a specific person. In Genesis 20:14; 24:35, the use of paidiske indicates the acquisition of women as property. The paidiske could be a CONCUBINE, as in the case of Sarah and Hagar or Rachel and Bilhah. When Rachel failed to bear children, she gave her paidiske, Bilhah, to Jacob so that through her, she, might be a mother (Gen 30:1-8).”

(Caroline Mbonu, HHCJ, Ph.D., Graduate Theological Union, is a member of the Congregation of the Handmaids of the Holy Child Jesus. She is presently a senior lecturer in the department of Religious and Cultural Studies at University of Port Harcourt, Nigeria.)

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Ingledsva · Feb 16, 2016

shmogie said:
The Roman legal system allowed slavery, slaves were trapped by the law and the force of the government. They are being advised how to act as Christians within those constraints. These verses in no way state that slavery is approved by Christ.

The Jewish legal system allowed slavery in NT times.

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shmogie · Feb 16, 2016

Ingledsva said:
Sanctioned "official" crap - is still crap.

Prejudice and homophobia have colored the translations. Sodomite being a perfect example. It is translated now as homosexual, - however - it originally meant a male Sacred Prostitute. You can see this by looking up the word in your Strong's Concordance.

It's time to correct them.

Jesus said nothing about homosexuality.

Most Christians don't follow - ALL - the Jewish laws. In fact they tell us they are no longer under any but perhaps ten of them.

Yet they become hypocrites when it comes to personal homophobia, - and suddenly they want to keep ONE of those old laws (which isn't even actually in there.)

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Christ never said anything about necrophilia, pedophilia, the use of methamphetimines, or bungy jumping, So, what is your point ? If one is a creationist, you believe the sexual organs of a man and a woman were designed by God, for purposes between a man and woman. They were not designed to take part, somehow, in the process of waste elimination. If one is a Darwinist, it is clear that the sexual organs evolved for the purpose of allowing the species to survive through reproduction, homosexuality is an evolutionary backwater, no value in the survival of the species. From the standpoint of Christian theology, sins are those things we do that put us out of harmony with God as to how we should live, they are wrong. We may love the sinful act, be driven to do it, but if one is a Christian, and believes God's plan is best, we do whatever we can to stop committing our own particular sins. I swear too much, eat too much, and can be really sarcastic at times, all sins, no greater nor no worse than another's sin. Homosexuality is a sin, no greater nor no worse than any other sin. Historically, it has always been so. I know of no same sex marriages in the Bible, read the post Apostolic writers, the same,. Society has reached a point where Biblical morality is pretty much frowned upon, and my generation of the sixties must take responsibility for that. "If it feels good do it !" was our mantra, and that approach is now grasped by society. So, outside of Christian personal or institutional constraints, people have Constitutional right to do what they choose, within the constraints of law. Biblically, we are to avoid those who habitually and serially commit sin, and I do, including unrepentant homosexuals. Do I discriminate against them, yes and no. In the public sphere, I have no right to do so, and I don't. In the private sphere, I choose not to associate with them, and they certainly would not be asked to be members of my church, though they would be welcome to attend. My right to religious freedom grants me the right to practice my religion as I choose, and I will., Some proclaimed Christians, in their minds, have somehow been able to bridge the chasm between the clear Christian condemnation of homosexuality, and the acceptance of it. How they did this is a strange metomorphosis, but that is their problem, not mine

shmogie · Feb 16, 2016

Ingledsva said:
Where does it say that?

Quoting Rabbi M.J. Raphall, circa 1861:

"Receiving slavery as one of the conditions of society, the New Testament nowhere interferes with or contradicts the slave code of Moses; it even preserves a letter [to Philemon] written by one of the most eminent Christian teachers [Paul] to a slave owner on sending back to him his runaway slave."

They obviously still had slaves in NT times -

Jesus uses slavery in one of his parables - so it had to be pertinent to his NT listeners.

Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."

Ephesians 6:5-9: "Slaves (doulos), be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

Colossians 4:1: "Masters, give unto your slaves (doulos) that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many (doulos) slaves as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"

1 Corinthians 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be slave (doulos) or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Mar 14:66 And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the female slaves (paidiske, concubine?) of the high priest:

The paidiske , that is the slave woman, has no social status. She is frequently not named. Thus one named paidiske has neither voice nor agency. A paidiske constitutes the personal property of a specific person. In Genesis 20:14; 24:35, the use of paidiske indicates the acquisition of women as property. The paidiske could be a CONCUBINE, as in the case of Sarah and Hagar or Rachel and Bilhah. When Rachel failed to bear children, she gave her paidiske, Bilhah, to Jacob so that through her, she, might be a mother (Gen 30:1-8).”

(Caroline Mbonu, HHCJ, Ph.D., Graduate Theological Union, is a member of the Congregation of the Handmaids of the Holy Child Jesus. She is presently a senior lecturer in the department of Religious and Cultural Studies at University of Port Harcourt, Nigeria.)

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ImmortalFlame · Feb 16, 2016

shmogie said:
If one is a Darwinist, it is clear that the sexual organs evolved for the purpose of allowing the species to survive through reproduction, homosexuality is an evolutionary backwater, no value in the survival of the species.

Actually, that's not strictly accurate:

http://www.iflscience.com/plants-an...iscover-evolutionary-advantage-homosexual-sex

FYI, nobody uses the term "Darwinist" anymore. It's like referring to someone who believes in gravity as a "Newtonist".

shmogie · Feb 16, 2016

You make my point. Israel was under Roman law at the time of Christ, Roman law allowed slavery. Jewish law allowed slavery, although Rome was very careful to see that it's system of law superseded Jewish law, the law of the land was Roman.Christianity did not foment revolution among the slaves, slavery was wrong but the Apostolic Christians lived in a society where the law was wrong and unfair in a whole host of ways. Christianity is and was about a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one. The slaves were taught that in their condition they were, as Christians, to behave in a certain way. Just as later Christians went to the games as bait for lions, tigers, wolves etc. They went peacefully, because that is what their faith taught them

shmogie · Feb 16, 2016

ImmortalFlame said:
Actually, that's not strictly accurate:

http://www.iflscience.com/plants-an...iscover-evolutionary-advantage-homosexual-sex

FYI, nobody uses the term "Darwinist" anymore. It's like referring to someone who believes in gravity as a "Newtonist".

I am free to use whatever term I choose. In creationist circles it is used to distinguish between macro and micro evolution

shmogie · Feb 16, 2016

shmogie said:
I am free to use whatever term I choose. In creationist circles it is used to distinguish between macro and micro evolution

Very interesting, for fruitflies. Has the gene in the fruitfly identified that allegedly causes this ?

ImmortalFlame · Feb 16, 2016

shmogie said:
I am free to use whatever term I choose. In creationist circles it is used to distinguish between macro and micro evolution

A Darwinist is somebody who accepts the Darwinian theory of evolution. However, evolution has advanced greatly since Darwin's time and has since become a foundational principle in fields of scientific study that didn't even exist in Darwin's time, such as genetics. Therefore, it is at best inaccurate to call anyone who accepts the current theory of evolution a "Darwinist". You may continue to use the term as you choose, but in the end you are only going to make yourself appear uninformed.

Ben Dhyan · Feb 16, 2016

Ingledsva said:
Sanctioned "official" crap - is still crap.

Prejudice and homophobia have colored the translations. Sodomite being a perfect example. It is translated now as homosexual, - however - it originally meant a male Sacred Prostitute. You can see this by looking up the word in your Strong's Concordance.

It's time to correct them.

Jesus said nothing about homosexuality.

Most Christians don't follow - ALL - the Jewish laws. In fact they tell us they are no longer under any but perhaps ten of them.

Yet they become hypocrites when it comes to personal homophobia, - and suddenly they want to keep ONE of those old laws (which isn't even actually in there.)

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Well you can try.....

Ben Dhyan · Feb 16, 2016

Ingledsva said:
No - that is not it!

If it is wrong, - it is wrong, - and needs to be corrected so people aren't being abused and discriminated against.

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Ben Dhyan · Feb 16, 2016

Ingledsva said:
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Norman actually asked you some good questions - that should have made you stop and think.

And continually posting those verses which have been shown to be wrong, - and to have actual - purposely mistranslated words, - such as sodomite=Sacred Prostitute - not homosexual, and arsenokoites=rapist - not homosexual, are doing you no favors here.

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Go back and read the thread....these questions have been answered many times but Norman just repeats them....he is a serial time water...

Ingledsva · Feb 16, 2016

shmogie said:
Christ never said anything about necrophilia, pedophilia, the use of methamphetimines, or bungy jumping, So, what is your point ?

Red herring - back to the actual subject.

shmogie said:
If one is a creationist, you believe the sexual organs of a man and a woman were designed by God, for purposes between a man and woman. They were not designed to take part, somehow, in the process of waste elimination. If one is a Darwinist, it is clear that the sexual organs evolved for the purpose of allowing the species to survive through reproduction, homosexuality is an evolutionary backwater, no value in the survival of the species.

Wrong again. Obviously you didn't read the articles, or watch the video, which both say newer evidence shows that homosexuality in the animal kingdom increases survival.

shmogie said:
From the standpoint of Christian theology, sins are those things we do that put us out of harmony with God as to how we should live, they are wrong. We may love the sinful act, be driven to do it, but if one is a Christian, and believes God's plan is best, we do whatever we can to stop committing our own particular sins. I swear too much, eat too much, and can be really sarcastic at times, all sins, no greater nor no worse than another's sin. Homosexuality is a sin, no greater nor no worse than any other sin. Historically, it has always been so.

As shown over and over - you cannot prove your Bible actually says anything about homosexuality. Sacred Sex/Prostitutes - yes, - about homosexuals - nope - nothing.

shmogie said:
I know of no same sex marriages in the Bible, read the post Apostolic writers, the same,.

First - the religions of Abraham are not the only religions - and many religions allow homosexuality.

Second - somewhere in here - we posted a link to information documents showing that some early CHRISTIAN churches - married homosexuals.

shmogie said:
Society has reached a point where Biblical morality is pretty much frowned upon,

Only those so called "moral" ideas that need changing.

shmogie said:
and my generation of the sixties must take responsibility for that. "If it feels good do it !" was our mantra, and that approach is now grasped by society. So, outside of Christian personal or institutional constraints, people have Constitutional right to do what they choose, within the constraints of law.

Indeed they have a right to basic human rights - such as homosexuals not being harassed, denied housing or jobs, or the right to lifelong love and companionship - just like heterosexuals.

shmogie said:
Biblically, we are to avoid those who habitually and serially commit sin, and I do, including unrepentant homosexuals.

Again - prove it actually says anything against homosexuals in the Bible!

shmogie said:
Do I discriminate against them, yes and no. In the public sphere, I have no right to do so, and I don't. In the private sphere, I choose not to associate with them, and they certainly would not be asked to be members of my church, though they would be welcome to attend.

Your shame, and loss. What would Jesus do?

Mar 2:15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

And you folks can't even prove homosexuality is sin.

shmogie said:
My right to religious freedom grants me the right to practice my religion as I choose, and I will., Some proclaimed Christians, in their minds, have somehow been able to bridge the chasm between the clear Christian condemnation of homosexuality, and the acceptance of it. How they did this is a strange metomorphosis, but that is their problem, not mine

There is actually NO condemnation of homosexuals in the Bible.

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The Emperor of Mankind · Feb 16, 2016

shmogie said:
The Roman legal system allowed slavery, slaves were trapped by the law and the force of the government. They are being advised how to act as Christians within those constraints. These verses in no way state that slavery is approved by Christ.

And all the books I quoted from were Pauline epistles... You make a fair point.

I have a question for you, though: Did Christ ever explicitly condemn slavery?

Ingledsva · Feb 16, 2016

shmogie said:
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Did your reply get lost here?

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shmogie · Feb 16, 2016

Ingledsva said:
Red herring - back to the actual subject.

Wrong again. Obviously you didn't read the articles, or watch the video, which both say newer evidence shows that homosexuality in the animal kingdom increases survival.

As shown over and over - you cannot prove your Bible actually says anything about homosexuality. Sacred Sex/Prostitutes - yes, - about homosexuals - nope - nothing.

First - the religions of Abraham are not the only religions - and many religions allow homosexuality.

Second - somewhere in here - we posted a link to information documents showing that some early CHRISTIAN churches - married homosexuals.

Only those so called "moral" ideas that need changing.

Indeed they have a right to basic human rights - such as homosexuals not being harassed, denied housing or jobs, or the right to lifelong love and companionship - just like heterosexuals.

Again - prove it actually says anything against homosexuals in the Bible!

Your shame, and loss. What would Jesus do?

Mar 2:15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

And you folks can't even prove homosexuality is sin.

There is actually NO condemnation of homosexuals in the Bible.

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Ingledsva · Feb 16, 2016

ben d said:

LOL! I like that.

However, I have to say - not "someone" "wrong" on the internet. We are showing the actual words used in the original texts - which PROVE the translations wrong.

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Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

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