Please look to understand Islam isn't so bad.

Theweirdtophat · Apr 27, 2015

I found it odd that they are supposed to punish apostates but there isn't a specific punishment for leaving Islam. As I've said in the original post, it said that they believed than disbelieved, than believed again and disbelieved again. If they disbelieved once, they wouldn't be able to believe once more.

Kirran · Apr 27, 2015

Theweirdtophat said:
Burma is well known for mistreating non Buddhists and it's of course a Buddhist majority country but no one talks about that. No one bashes Buddhists for that. It just seems odd to me.

Very true. But it's also in much worse a situation in many other ways than many Muslim-majority countries which explicitly or unofficially discriminate against non-Muslims. Not to say it in any way excusable. But the line can't be drawn from that treatment to Buddhist doctrine and scripture.

As for your point about Malaysia being corrupt, yes, that's true. The leader of the opposition is being kept out of the competition, because they keep accusing him of sodomy so he goes back to jail again.

leibowde84 · Apr 27, 2015

xkatz said:
@Kirran
Does the different treatment apply mainly to religious matters (conversion, marriage, death, religious rules+education), or does this apply to secular matters as well?

Either way, it's pretty darn messed-up.

xkatz · Apr 27, 2015

Theweirdtophat said:
Burma is well known for mistreating non Buddhists and it's of course a Buddhist majority country but no one talks about that. No one bashes Buddhists for that. It just seems odd to me.

The conflict in Burma is largely ethnic in nature, and is caused by tensions between two groups (Rohingya and Rakhine), which in no way makes the violence necessary or justifiable. The troubles you see in countries like Malaysia are precipitated through Islamic sharia law- in which Muslims will always be favored for better treatment and benefits. The two situations are very different IMHO.

YmirGF · Apr 27, 2015

Part of the difficulty faced by Islam itself is the widespread belief that it is perfect and that the Qur'an was literally authored by Allah, even though we get that third-hand from Muhammad. Islam has always been and will always be a supremacist replacement theology.

Kirran · Apr 27, 2015

While I absolutely agree that Islam need not be violent, and that there are strains and interpretations with which I have no objections, it remains the case that there are 28 countries (as far as I can see) in the world in which apostasy is some kind of crime (including countries where converting a Muslim is a crime). All are Muslim-majority, although it should be noted than in Nigeria it applies only in the north. That's out of a total of 49 Muslim-majority countries (plus or minus a couple, some are close to the borderline). So the mainstream and common forms of Islam, as she is practiced, are exclusivist and intolerant. Sadly, they are also misogynistic and homophobic.

Theweirdtophat · Apr 27, 2015

xkatz said:
The conflict in Burma is largely ethnic in nature, and is caused by tensions between two groups (Rohingya and Rakhine), which in no way makes the violence necessary or justifiable. The troubles you see in countries like Malaysia are precipitated through Islamic sharia law- in which Muslims will always be favored for better treatment and benefits. The two situations are very different IMHO.

some of it is ethic, but they have openly raided and oppressed Christian, Muslim and even Hindu homes. It's also difficult to serve in the military or get a government job at all if you're a non Buddhist. They are also militaristic as well.

Kirran · Apr 27, 2015

Theweirdtophat said:
some of it is ethic, but they have openly raided and oppressed Christian, Muslim and even Hindu homes. It's also difficult to serve in the military or get a government job at all if you're a non Buddhist. They are also militaristic as well.

It's all very sad. I have hopes for the country's development, nevertheless. I hope it progresses above this.

There are episodes of similar communalist violence between Hindus and Muslims in India, which are equally deplorable.

raph · Apr 27, 2015

Apostacy is no crime in the Quran afaik. There is a tradition where his holyness Muhammad says to kill anyone who leaves islam. These traditions may be true or false But they are surely relative to the time. The Quran is supposed to be eternal but maybe what Muhammed did, is not. One explanation why Muhammed could have said that, is because it were very violent times. People had two choices, either fight islam or agree with it. So apostacy was maybe treason at the time and an apostat would generally be killing muslims after that. The other way to explain the tradition would be that it never happened. I think that most hadiths are fabricated, so many that are supposedly real are contradicting the Quran. The Quran tells us to only fight enemies who do big crimes against you like murder or torture. The Quran says to only fight back, if the enemies make literall war against you, so apostats should not be killed when they are peaceful. There is no compulsion in religion.

fantome profane · Apr 27, 2015

Theweirdtophat said:
I've made threads like this but I thought I'd shed some light. There's bad Muslims, like bad Buddhists, Christians, Pagans ect. and you're going to find good and bad in almost every group. People say that Muslims don't condemn terrorism but that's not true.

Norway's Muslims Form Protective Human Ring Around Oslo's Synagogue

I have read this entire thread, and I have watched that video.

I applaud the actions of these specific people in this video.

And that is the only comment I am going to make.

LuisDantas · Apr 27, 2015

I see what you mean, Fantome.

LuisDantas · Apr 27, 2015

YmirGF said:
Part of the difficulty faced by Islam itself is the widespread belief that it is perfect and that the Qur'an was literally authored by Allah, even though we get that third-hand from Muhammad. Islam has always been and will always be a supremacist replacement theology.

There is certainly very little in the way of evidence against such a conclusion. And it has become increasingly difficult to attempt to deny it.

Shad · Apr 27, 2015

leibowde84 said:
Thanks for this. Very enlightening. I've got to say, I'm surprised by this. I never thought of Malaysia's Islamic Government as being so unjust. I mean, seperate courts for Muslims and non-Muslims?!

This is the standard system behind the concept of Dhimmi. In exchange for protection of the state and being excluded from obligations required of Muslims, non-Muslims gain a secondary status as citizens, a different tax burden and certain rights. However non-Muslim systems are still under the jurisdiction of the Islamic system itself. So you will not see laws which contradict Islamic law such as same-sex marriage. The development of this system is largely confined to areas which were already Judo-Christian thus difference are largely theological rather than legal. Although the modern system has been altered, its origin's remain rooted within Islam.

LuisDantas · Apr 27, 2015

Far as I can tell, the situation is this:

Muslim doctrine says outright that surrender to the God of the Quran is very much an universal duty, although some people can be forgiven for failing to be aware of it for whatever historical reason.

All the same, it is still their duty to attempt to encompass all of humanity within Islam, including and particularly by attaining political control and establishing Muslim governments at every oportunity. Because it is taken for granted that without devotion to Allah rulers simply can't possibly be all that good.

Therefore, non-muslims are ultimately either misguided or outright suspect, for how could a good person possibly not accept Allah and the Quran if he or she truly understand their role and significance?

Or at least, that is what quite a few (most? nearly all?) Muslims are taught as a matter of course. They end up finding it terribly impolite to say out aloud that non-muslims are second-class citizens, but they believe it all the same. They better believe; peer pressure in muslim societies is quite asfixiating, from what I gather.

It is an incredibly effective, repressive system of beliefs. One that both attempts to cruelly crush dissent and praises itself for being so benevolent while so doing.

All the same, reasonable people do end up arising as they are wont to do, even in such uninviting environments. But they have to be rather careful about what they show of their thoughts and inclinations, and both adherents and critics of Islam often end up perceiving them as somewhat more typical and significant than they probably are. Because the earlier group wants to show evidence of their supposed tolerance (and from their own perspective they often are tolerant for allowing such abhorrent people to speak their minds "in challenge of God's will") while the later wants to hold up hope that such a huge group is not quite that unreasonable and repressive.

All in all, muslim societies are not altogether too different from the worst of Christianity. They just happen to be somewhat more politically succesfull at this point of History. It is basically inevitable that they will collapse under their own weight soon enough, although the price to be paid will be dire and painful for us all.

gsa · Apr 27, 2015

Of course there are very good Muslims and very bad Muslims and Muslims everywhere in between. This is demonstrably true with all religions and of course among the nonreligious. It does not appear that many people contest that. That said, sharia did not appear out of thin air. When people elsewhere in this thread express astonishment that Muslims and non-Muslims have segregated legal systems, that surprise would evaporate quite quickly once you examine the system of dhimmi status and the later Ottoman millet (versions of which are now in force even in the most secular of societies in the Middle East, including Israel). These legal systems were as profoundly unfair as any that dominated the landscape of premodern Europe (or the American South under slavery and segregation, to borrow a more current example).

This is also a consequence of Islam being different from Christianity. Whatever one thinks of Paul and the early Christian community (and I don't think much of them), they were, to varying degrees, attempting to fashion a less legalistic extension of Judaism to Gentiles. Conscious of their status as a minority within a minority in an empire that was growing decidedly hostile to Jewish rebellion, they did not craft, in their writings, a full fledged system of civil law based on divine decrees, right down to a detailed explanation of inheritance rights. Certainly, those systems were developed later, in more theocratic eras where Christianity enjoyed a position of social, political and religious dominance. With Islam, however, you more or less have an inversion of that same trajectory.

Which leads us to the scriptures used by Muslims. Of course they can ignore it, and in practice even reinterpret it (certainly the extension of religious toleration to non-Muslim groups outside of the People of the Book as well as the formulation of the millet system is an example of both, more or less). But it is still there, sitting as the perfect union of divine decree and civil regulation, recognizing no true distinction between them. When we express concern or disagreement with Islamic doctrine on any number of issues (legal status of women, gays, and apostates, for example), according to these true believers of Islam, we are staking a position in opposition to the infallible Word of God.

We are not in a position to judge whether these are inflexible positions of the Islamic religion. That question is one for Muslims to resolve themselves. And good luck to their dissidents who are trying to secularize it. But there is no denying that these are parts of the actual religion practiced by billions of people, and that this represents a real barrier to human rights and development.

leibowde84 · Apr 27, 2015

Shad said:
This is the standard system behind the concept of Dhimmi. In exchange for protection of the state and being excluded from obligations required of Muslims, non-Muslims gain a secondary status as citizens, a different tax burden and certain rights. However non-Muslim systems are still under the jurisdiction of the Islamic system itself. So you will not see laws which contradict Islamic law such as same-sex marriage. The development of this system is largely confined to areas which were already Judo-Christian thus difference are largely theological rather than legal. Although the modern system has been altered, its origin's remain rooted within Islam.

That's crazy though, right?!

leibowde84 · Apr 27, 2015

raph said:
Apostacy is no crime in the Quran afaik. There is a tradition where his holyness Muhammad says to kill anyone who leaves islam. These traditions may be true or false But they are surely relative to the time. The Quran is supposed to be eternal but maybe what Muhammed did, is not. One explanation why Muhammed could have said that, is because it were very violent times. People had two choices, either fight islam or agree with it. So apostacy was maybe treason at the time and an apostat would generally be killing muslims after that. The other way to explain the tradition would be that it never happened. I think that most hadiths are fabricated, so many that are supposedly real are contradicting the Quran. The Quran tells us to only fight enemies who do big crimes against you like murder or torture. The Quran says to only fight back, if the enemies make literall war against you, so apostats should not be killed when they are peaceful. There is no compulsion in religion.

from what I've learned about Islam, I feel more and more that the hadiths were fabricated in order to control Muslim culture.

Shad · Apr 28, 2015

leibowde84 said:
from what I've learned about Islam, I feel more and more that the hadiths were fabricated in order to control Muslim culture.

The Quran lacks a lot of explanatory power behind it's own verses as it was not complied into a narration like the Bible. While I do not doubt some hadiths are invented for power of control many are created due to this lack of cohesion within the base text. Some of the basic rituals Islam has are based on a mix of the Quran and ahadiths.

Book of Prayers (Salat) - Sahih al-Bukhari - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

leibowde84 said:
That's crazy though, right?!

There has been class systems based on religion and ethnicity for centuries. It is not crazy, it just discriminatory

ThePainefulTruth · Apr 28, 2015

Theweirdtophat said:
I've made threads like this but I thought I'd shed some light. There's bad Muslims, like bad Buddhists, Christians, Pagans ect. and you're going to find good and bad in almost every group. People say that Muslims don't condemn terrorism but that's not true.

Norway's Muslims Form Protective Human Ring Around Oslo's Synagogue

There are some that not only condemn it openly and also fight against it. The United Arab Emirates, Jordan, Nigeria, Chad, ect, all Muslims majority countries have been actively fighting against Boko Haram and ISIS, two Islamic terrorist groups. If that's not enough proof that they condemn it, I don't know what is. Most Muslims don't do terrorist activities. Most people in GENERAL don't do this. It is strange because some people will say "Muslims don't condemn Islamic terrorism!" so loud, they can't hear the Muslims that ARE condemning it.

People will try to justify hating it due to the Quran because there's some bad stuff in it. Yeah, like there isn't messed up stuff in the Torah, New Testament? Even some Hindu and Dharmic scriptures have messed up stuff in it. Those books have both good and bad stuff in it. They will say that Muslims should be punished for what their ancestors did, but that's not good either. You don't punish people for what their ancestors did.

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe?" [The Qur'an 10:99]

Apostasy is a topic that can get confusing, especially since in Islam it's not merely the change of ones religion. In the Qur'an for example, it is stated over and over again that there is no compulsion in religion. You simply are not allowed to make someone believe against their will. (I gave one example above, there are others I can share if anyone is interested)

The topic of rejecting religion after being a believer is also mentioned in the Qur'an, but not once is a worldly punishment prescribed for it. For example one verse states:

"Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way." [4:137]

As you can see it talks about disbelieving after believing over and over again but it never talks about punishing those people in this life. Actually, if people were killed for merely leaving the religion, how can they believe and disbelieve then believe and disbelieve again? Wouldn't they be already dead?

The confusion actually comes from a number of saying by Muhammad about people committing ridda and that they are to be executed. Thing is these sayings were about people who didn't just leave the religion, but they also joined the other side which was fighting Muslims at the time. (In early Islamic history Muslims were persecuted against by the Arab Pagans) In some of these sayings it becomes more clear that it's not just someone who leaves the religion, but someone who acts against the nation. In short, it's someone committing treason in terms we use today.

So as you can say, if you combine the fact that the Qur'an itself speaks against compulsion in matters of religion, with knowing a bit of history behind these sayings it becomes clear that there is no execution for the mere leaving of Islam.

"There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." [2:256]"

Pay the poor-due. 2:43, 110, 277
Be good to parents, relatives, orphans, and the needy. Speak kindly and pay the poor-due. 2:83
If you believe it, prove it. (A good rule, but does it apply to Muslims, too?) 2:111
The Jews say the Christians are wrong, and vice versa. Yet they both believe in the Scriptures. 2:113
Give of your wealth to family, relatives, and the needy. Set slaves free. 2:177
Do not fight wars of aggression. (Does this apply only during Ramadan?) 2:190
"Do good." 2:195
Spend your money for good: to help your parents, your family, orphans, wayfarers, and the needy. 2:215
Help orphans. 2:220
"Make not Allah, by your oaths, a hindrance to ... making peace among mankind." 2:224
"If the debtor is in straitened circumstances, then (let there be) postponement to (the time of) ease." 2:280
Don't argue about things that you know nothing about. 3:66
Do not be guilty of usury, doubling and quadrpling the sum lent. 3:130
I suffer not the work of any worker, male or female, to be lost. Ye proceed one from another. 3:195
Help orphans and don't steal from them. 4:2, 4:10
Men and women proceed from one another. 4:25
"Kill not one another." 4:29
Be kind to parents, relatives, orphans, the needy, neighbors, and travelers. 4:36
Whoever participates in a good cause, will be rewarded. Whoever participates in an evil cause, will bear the consequences thereof. (It's not true, but it's a nice thought.) 4:85
If someone says Hi to you say Hi (or Howdy) back to them. 4:86
It is good to help the poor and make peace. 4:114
Value justice, for both poor and rich, even when it adversely affects you or your family's interests. 4:135
Don't lend money at unfairly high rates of interest. 4:161
"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion."
Other translations render this "O people of the Book, do not be fanatical in your faith." (Amen to that!) 4:171
Don't hate other people. Treat everyone fairly. 5:8
Whoever kills a human being, it is as if he had killed all mankind. Whoever saves the life of one, it is as if he had saved the life of all.
(But see the next verse which says that the enemies of Allah and Muhammad will be killed, crucified, have their hands and feet cut off, or expelled. And after they die they will face "an awful doom.") 5:32
Pay the poor-due. 5:55
Feed and clothe the needy. Set a slave free. 5:89
Do good to parents, don't kill your children or other living things unnecessarily. 6:151
Don't steal from orphans. Don't cheat or lie. 6:152
Pay the poor-due. 7:156
Be kind and forgiving toward others. 7:199
And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it. 8:61
Men and women are protecting friends of one another. They enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and pay the poor-due. 9:71
"We see thee [Noah] but a mortal like us, and we see not that any follow thee save the most abject among us, without reflection. We behold in you no merit above us - nay, we deem you liars." 11:27
"Do not evil in the earth."
Treat people fairly, respect their possessions, and avoid evil. 11:85
Be kind to your relatives. 16:90
Be kind to your parents. Treat them with respect in their old age. 17:23
Help your family, the needy, and wayfarer. Don't selfishly squander your wealth. 17:26
Don't kill your children to avoid falling into poverty. 17:31
Don't steal from orphans. 17:34
Don't follow what you don't know. 17:36
"Speak that which is kindlier." 17:53
"Increase me in knowledge." 20:114
Feed the poor and unfortunate. 22:28
Don't lie. 22:30
Be kind to others, forbid injustice, and pay the poor-due. 22:41
Pay the poor-due. 22:78
Pay the poor-due. 23:4
Repel evil with that which is better. 23:96
Pay the poor-due. 24:37, 24:56
"And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom."
Allah encourages you to set your slaves free if they are good enough. And don't pimp out your slave-girls (concubines). 24:33
Repel evil with good. 28:54
Be kind to your parents. 29:8
Men and women should help each other with love an mercy. 30:21
Help your family, the needy, and wayfarers. 30:38
Pay the poor-due. 31:4
"Be modest in thy bearing and subdue thy voice." 31:19
"Speak words straight to the point."
Say what you mean; mean what you say. 33:70
Good and evil are not the same. Repel evil with goodness. That way your enemies will become your friends. 41:34
Be loving and kind to your relatives. 42:23
It is wrong to oppress people. 42:42
Live peacefully with disbelievers. 43:88-89
Be kind to your parents. 46:15
Don't defame, insult, spy on, or backbite one another.. 49:11-12
Give of your wealth to help the poor. 51:19
"A guess can never take the place of the truth." 53:28
Pay the poor-due. 58:13
Pay the poor-due. 73:20
Don't defraud. 83:1-3
Free a slave, feed the hungry, and exhort one another to pity. 90:13-17
Don't oppress orphans or drive away beggars. 93:9-10
Pay the poor-due. That is true religion. 98:5
Let each person believe (or disbelieve) whatever he or she wishes. 109:1, 6

But then there's this:

Quran (9:29):

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

This is the duty of every Muslim. As such, there can be no peace until everyone submits to Islam. Any Muslim who denies the authority of this passage, denies Islam.

Theweirdtophat · Apr 28, 2015

ThePainefulTruth said:
But then there's this:

Quran (9:29):

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

This is the duty of every Muslim. As such, there can be no peace until everyone submits to Islam. Any Muslim who denies the authority of this passage, denies Islam.

You'll find contradictions in the Quran like you would in the Torah or New Testmanet. You'll find good things in those books as well as bad things that contradict the message. I'm saying the Quran isn't the only book that's like that, although some like to think that. Then again, one has to check out history. Who was Muhammad talking about? All people, or the enemies they were fighting against? Not to mention it was written by multiple people like with the Torah and New Testament.

Please look to understand Islam isn't so bad.

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